What's your recipe for a traditional short radius non-carved turn

Noodler

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Exactly.
The first video uses an extension release.
The second video uses a flexion release.
In pivot slips, the difference between these two releases is highlighted since so little else is going on.

Learning to do both types of pivot slips, on command, and making sure they are as different from each other as possible, is an excellent exercise in building skill versatility.
Once you can do those two, you certainly can make turns that either use extension or flexion.
Some people on this forum have said they've never seen anyone do that.
It can be done if you chase it.
Well clearly I'm "some people" and I still contend that for most mere mortals the two release patterns are polar opposites and very difficult for skiers to "flip the switch" between them. And let's be real about those pivot slip videos... the first video is a clear extension move, but the second is NOT a flex to release pivot slip. It's just a pivot slip performed without an extension and done by using fore/aft management and edge control. That's a far cry from showing any kind of mastery of flex to release. As I noted in the other thread, there are 3 key elements that define a true use of flexion to release and create a new turn. If all 3 aren't present, the turn isn't meeting the criteria for a flex-based turn.

I was trying to stay out of this thread because there's a lot of misinformation and outright lies, but since you called me out, I had to chime in on this piece.
 
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François Pugh

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Thanks for the clarification @Noodler . In my mind, flex to release is giving in to centrifugal, or releasing the centripetal (depending on your frame of reference) force by removing the outside ski's supporting force while extension release is overcoming the centripetal force by lifting your centre of mass high enough so that you rotate about that outside ski without removing its support.

BTW, I can do either or both, and also everything in between. I have seen a lot of people who are stuck in one or the other though. On the other hand I've also seen a lot of people with a perma-pivot, and a lot of people with a bad stem habit.
 

LiquidFeet

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Well clearly I'm "some people" and I still contend that for most mere mortals the two release patterns are polar opposites and very difficult for skiers to "flip the switch" between them. And let's be real about those pivot slip videos... the first video is a clear extension move, but the second is NOT a flex to release pivot slip. It's just a pivot slip performed without an extension and done by using fore/aft management and edge control. That's a far cry from showing any kind of mastery of flex to release. As I noted in the other thread, there are 3 key elements that define a true use of flexion to release and create a new turn. If all 3 aren't present, the turn isn't meeting the criteria for a flex-based turn.
Noodler, other people have made the claim as well as you I think. I didn't even have you in mind, jut the vague "other people" whose names I can't remember.

Anyway, yes, those two releases are polar opposites, and I agree that most people don't separate them and practice them in isolation. But I disagree that the second one does not follow the flex-to-release pattern of movements and stand by what I said upthread.

When I do pivot slips for whatever reason, unless I'm doing it in front of some examiner who wants to see the extension type, I so the second one. To start the pivot in the new direction, the new inside leg needs to flex shorter than it is. The new outside leg follows along, extending slightly afterwards and only enough to maintain the stance width and keep the skis on the line. There's also an uphill pull-back of that new inside foot/ski, although it happens sideways uphill, not along the length of the ski (I never hear anyone talking about this but it's essential in both types of pivot slip). And there's the tipping of the new inside ski which must happen to keep the skis flat enough to continue the straight-down-the-fall-line track. The ski doesn't tip all the way onto its downhill edge because, well, this is not a turn it's a pivot slip, but it does have to be tipped to a different ankle on the snow in a very controlled way by the skier. That's the three things, flex, pull-back, tip.

The second video is not a video of turns, it's shows pivot slips. So these three things are necessarily going to be done differently from how they are done to produce a turn. But all three movements for a by-the-book flex-to-release on your list have to be present for one to get a pivot slip like that second skier is doing.

I stand by what I said. The skier who can do that second pivot slip knows how to do those three things and should be able to adapt them for use in a real turn with no problem.

Whether that skier can avoid the leg rotation that's required in a pivot slip when doing the real turn, that's another issue. Learning to do a flexion release with and without the new inside leg rotation is another good thing to work on, versatility-wise.
 
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François Pugh

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@LiquidFeet I see the similarity in movements - what's doing what and how. Movement dissection is exactly what I'm looking for.

Perhaps you could start from scratch and give me the recipe using Movement 2 for starters. You know - flex legs, transfer weight to new outside ski focussed on (what part of foot/ski), pull new inside ski back, drive new outside ski forward (?), tip skis (just so, how?), move hand (which hand when, where), shift balance (as turn progresses), and all the steps to release into next SR turn, etc.
 
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François Pugh

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View attachment 125109 View attachment 125109
For everyone who insist that gs skiers up extend.
Look how clear the flex to release is.
Ha, ha, I don't see too much call for a SR in that photo. Although, if I'm true to form after nailing three good turns (on course or on a motorcycle race track), I'll be going too fast and flub the next turn losing all my time. ogwink
 

LiquidFeet

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@LiquidFeet I see the similarity in movements - what's doing what and how. Movement dissection is exactly what I'm looking for.
Perhaps you could start from scratch and give me the recipe using Movement 2 for starters. You know - flex legs, transfer weight to new outside ski focussed on (what part of foot/ski), pull new inside ski back, drive new outside ski forward (?), tip skis (just so, how?), move hand (which hand when, where), shift balance (as turn progresses), and all the steps to release into next SR turn, etc.
Your comments in red, mine in black. I assume you mean how to do that second pivot slip, right, not a turn? I'm going to use a lot of words and get redundant. Here goes.

-flex legs flex downhill, new inside leg, more than it currently is, to release the current pivot and start the new one; ignore the new outside leg; focus only on the new inside leg (downhill leg)
-you didn't say anything about rotating or pivoting rotate that new inside leg, since we are talking about a pivot slip, not a carved nor brushed-carve turn; point the knee/thigh in the new turn's direction without rotating the pelvis; eventually you will run out of ROM at the hip joint and the pelvis will turn a little, but keep it as non-turning as possible until your skis point across the fall line
-transfer weight to new outside ski focussed on (what part of foot/ski) nope, no active "transfer" needed; weight needs to stay between the two skis; focus on that, 50/50 (maybe 60/40) weight distribution the whole way down the trail; keep proprioception focused on this task while using eyes to keep the line and the speed constant
-pull new inside ski back yep; keep both feet on their imaginary separate straight-down-the-hill-tracks (essential, use your eyes to keep skis on these tracks, as if they each on a RR track); slide that new inside foot/ski back uphill of you, keeping it on its imaginary track, so it becomes the uphill-of-your-CoM-ski; this happens simultaneously with the rest; stance width needs to stay the same all the way down the hill; that uphill pull-back will feel like you are moving the new inside ski uphill against the snow sideways, although you aren't; the pull-back is relative to your CoM not the hill; it's not a pull-back along the length of the ski either. Its purpose is to keep your CoM between the two feet as they change position on the hill; one foot needs to be higher than the other, and this changes; the inside foot is the one that you intentionally move, and you move it uphill of yourself as you pivot it and maintain the right amount of edge angle to keep the slipping constant and on its line.
-drive new outside ski forward (?) no way; leave the new outside ski/foot/leg to follow what you are telling the new inside ski/foot/leg to do; focus is on the new inside only
-tip skis (just so, how?) keep both skis flattish on the snow so you are side-slipping at a constant downhill speed; this is done with a very subtle tipping move inside the boot at the ankle, led by a focus on the new inside ski's interaction with the snow; do what tipping at that ankle that is necessary to maintain a constant side-slip slide speed, no check allowed at the end of the pivot; allow the new outside ankle tipping to take care of itself; keep the focus on the new inside ski's tip angle; your speed and line tell you if this is working
-move hand (which hand when, where) maintain constant "quiet" hand position; hands don't move unless you are doing pole taps, which are not required; if doing them, just tap pole to snow, so hands will need to go a little up and down; if not doing the, imagine that you are going down a stairway and you have each hand on a stair rail that's on the side of the stairs; keep hands on those rails
-shift balance (as turn progresses) nope, balance needs to stay between the two feet in a pivot slip. We are talking about that second pivot slip, not a turn, right?
-all the steps to release into next SR turn, etc. you just released and pivoted, now without allowing downhill travel to speed up or slow down, do everything in the other direction; maintain constant downhill travel speed, keep two skis on two imaginary straight RR tracks, keep hands on imaginary stair rails
 
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François Pugh

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Thanks for that @LiquidFeet. I was actually looking for the SR turn recipe with all the movements defined. As I'm not going for a Level iii testing, I don't have the motivation to spend a lot of time on pivot slips, but I will book mark it (already done) and practice it before my next certification (which isn't as hard for me as I understand Level III tests to be). I can anticipate some minor changes when changing to the SR turn.
 
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François Pugh

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Like I said above, I appreciate everybody taking the time to reply. The ideal would be a video, like the one comparing the Level III and the candidate along with a description of movements and timing required like you gave for the pivot slip.
 

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View attachment 125109 View attachment 125109
For everyone who insist that gs skiers up extend.
Look how clear the flex to release is.
Maybe someone can link Reilly's video again to show that different GS skiers at the WC level do different things? Or pull out LeMaster's examples of different race transitions? And we haven't even talked about moving to pressure and structural alignment to stivot. WC'ers make tactical choices. You will see many GS turns flexed, orhers not... just depends, but my guess is they're thinking how to get long to the outside ski early and tipping by shortening the new inside leg as well as inclining into the arc above apex. . 'Flexing' becomes more of a pressure management 'damn, I'd better keep my skis on the snow if I hope to get to that next gate' than something that looks athletic and cool. Personally yes, I do flex, sometimes relax, sometimes actively lengthen/shorten depending on terrain, circumstances, the amount of vertical I'd like to ski continuously, and whether I'm dialing up or dialing down the basic athleticism. Personally, I don't have any difficulty doing either flexion or extension releases. One is certainly quicker than the other edge to edge if quick is important (high performance short radius turns, SL, et al... pivot slips, or any drill dealing with transition can be done either way. Flexion white pass turns are interesting for sure. Odd the whole flex to release thing... it's been around since the mid-late 70's and was called 'down weighting'. Used it then, too.
 

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Ughh, the PMTS galore back at it again. :rolleyes:

If you like PMTS that is fine, but there are more ways to become proficient at skiing. It's bizarre how many people have been brainwashed into that kind of thinking, sometimes it feels like a cult.
I agree with you that PMTS is a ridiculous cult, but what they teach is really pretty good for short turns.

Extension in the transition and pivot slips are a horrible combination, especially if you are trying to make a fast turn.
 

LiquidFeet

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Like I said above, I appreciate everybody taking the time to reply. The ideal would be a video, like the one comparing the Level III and the candidate along with a description of movements and timing required like you gave for the pivot slip.
I'll give it a try. I'll do it the same way I did with the pivot slip as you've requested. This description is for a flex-to-release short turn. @François Pugh, there are shorter descriptions upthread. This is going to be ridiculously long, because I think you are disappointed in shorter versions already given. Let me know if this fits the request.

All of the following assumes east coast snow.
I am sure there are differences of opinion which will crop up if anyone actually reads all these words ogwink.

Your comments in red, mine in black. I'm going to use a lot of words and get redundant. Here goes.

-flex legs Nope, not exactly. Flex downhill, new inside leg, more than it currently is, to release the current turn and start the new one. Ignore the new outside leg; leave it short as it currently is. Focus only on the new inside leg (downhill leg). If you are used to flexing both legs, flexing only one will feel quite different.
-you didn't say anything about rotating or pivoting rotate that new inside leg, (a) When we are talking about a skidded turn, not a carved nor brushed-carve turn, you point the knee/thigh in the new turn's direction - without rotating the pelvis above it. The pivot point of the thigh is up at the top of the femur. Eventually you will run out of ROM at the hip joint as you rotate the ski, so the rotating ski may pull the pelvis into rotation. You can choose to allow this or not, depending on the turn radius you want. (b) If you are making a carved turn or a brush-carve, don't do any thigh rotation at all. (c) Difficulties people run into: not doing thigh rotation is hard for skiers who can and habitually use it. They have trouble learning to carve or brush-carve their short turns. For skiers who rotate the pelvis in order to drag both skis around, not doing any rotation is quite difficult to learn.
-transfer weight to new outside ski focussed on (what part of foot/ski) Nope, no active "transfer" is needed if you are doing a flexion release. It transfers on its own, due to forces in the turn. PMTS goes deeply into how to do a flex-to-release turn that delays the transfer to the outside ski, a "weighted release." A fast flexion will lighten that ski. A slow flexion will allow the body above to drop slowly over that new inside ski and "weight" will remain on it for a bit of time into the turn, thus "weighted release." But "weight" still moves to the outside ski as the turn progresses. Extend it to keep it on the snow, no more. (Maybe someone highly versed in a weighted release can say more.) Otherwise, the flexion lightens the new inside ski and that "weight" moves to the outside ski immediately without you doing anything in addition to the flexion.
-pull new inside ski back Yep. Slide that new inside foot/ski back along its length a bit as you flex that leg. These two go together. This slide relieves pressure under that ski's tail, and keeps its tip down on the snow. You can even lift the tail. Do not allow the new inside half of the pelvis to pull-back. Keep the pelvis out of this. The pull-back happens in the leg only, starting at the foot. Do this for either a skidded turn or a carved/brush-carved turn.
-drive new outside ski forward (?) No way. Leave the new outside ski/foot/leg to follow what you are telling the new inside ski/foot/leg to do; your focus is on the new inside half only (ski/foot/leg/pelvis/shoulder/arm/hand).
-tip skis (just so, how?) Tip new inside foot to its little toe edge inside its boot. Some prefer to raise the arch. Ignore the new outside foot. This is a very small ROM movement. It will tip the ski when the boot fits well. For extra tipping, you can in addition tilt the lower leg above that ankle. This results in the bowlegged look. In other words, roll the new inside knee outward. It all happens with the new inside foot and lower leg, for skidded turns and for carved/brush-carved turns. For longish carved turns, tipping at the ankle may be enough. For short/super short turns you'll need to recruit tilting that lower leg by going bow-legged. For even shorter turns, thinking bumps here, you'll need to rotate the thigh. The pelvis may get dragged into a bit of rotation by the foot and leg work once the turn starts because of lack of ROM, but it does not play an active, leadership role. It follows what you do with the inside without any need to focus on it. Really.
-you didn't say anything about the tilt of the pelvis and torso above it Keep the inside half of your pelvis high and forward, and along with it the shoulder and inside arm/hand. For super-shorts, keep the torso literally vertical.
-you didn't say anything about where the feet are laterally beneath the torso Focus on flexing that new inside leg and tipping that new inside foot/ski and pulling it back along the length of the ski. In addition, focus on keeping that foot under the pelvis above it. Do not send it outward, laterally. This should result in both feet staying as much under your torso as possible. For your run-of-the-mill short turn you don't focus on sending the feet out, you focus on tipping more and keeping the feet in. Yes, there are reaching short radius turns with foot-squirt but I'm not focusing on those.
-move hand (which hand when, where) Nope. Maintain constant "quiet" hand position; hands don't move except when required to get the pole to touch the snow. Hands may need to go a little up and down. Pole tap happens beside new inside foot, not ahead of it. Skiers who are used to moving hand forward and tapping ahead of the foot will have difficulty learning this. Skiers used to swinging arms will have difficulty learning to keep that hand in its "home base" position after the pole tap; keeping it there may require "driving the hand and shoulder forward" (and "up" if they are used to dropping it as well) at first.
-shift balance (as turn progresses) Nope. Balance shifts on its own to the new outside ski. Rate of shift depends on whether you are doing a weighted release or not. Normally it shifts with the flexion because that removes pressure/weight under the new inside ski and it has to go somewhere. No movements are necessary for this transfer beyond the flexion. Rate of flexion determines how fast weight/balance transfers.
-all the steps to release into next SR turn, etc. Do everything in the other direction.
 
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LiquidFeet

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....As I'm not going for a Level iii testing, I don't have the motivation to spend a lot of time on pivot slips....
You might be surprised at the rush you'll get from doing pivot slips slowly down the middle of an icy black groomer after a thaw-freeze when no one else will go there.
 

Noodler

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And then there's modern short swing turns (where the ski design is actually being used to its full extent rather than short swing turns that look the same as they were done before the turn of the century). If you're going to ride a modern shaped ski, then use it correctly.

 
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François Pugh

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You might be surprised at the rush you'll get from doing pivot slips slowly down the middle of an icy black groomer after a thaw-freeze when no one else will go there.
Nah, I learned to ski on a sloped skating rink with rocks in it.
Thanks for the detailed recipe for a short turn. That's exactly the description I was looking for.
Exactly when does the pole touch (made while keeping hands quiet) occur with regards to the leg movements?

(I'll also just comment as an engineer and former physics teacher, that although most don't realize it, when you pull one foot back, it only happens due to an equal and opposite forward push, and that for me balance transfer that happens naturally still happens).

My usual ski is my shortest ski and is a 165 cm Fischer WC SC with a 13 m side-cut radius (year before they put the hole back in the tip). It's a little stiffer than the current SC if I'm not mistaken, but still below FIS SL racing ski. I also have a few skinny mid-twenties skis, one phat ski that I haven't skied yet and an antique SG ski with around a 70 m turn radius, but I have no interest in doing any sideways skiing on the old SG.
 

LiquidFeet

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Sounds like you're ready to go do these turns.

If equal and opposite happens with the pull-back, so be it. But the human on top of the skis in these turns points mental focus and muscular control at the new inside ski pull-back, and lets the outside do its thing without executive control. Newton can control that ski.

If your question about the pole touch is about when it happens in the turn, you'll find people fall into two camps. Camp one says do it at the end of the old turn, triggering or accompanying the release. Camp two says at the start of the new, after the release, as skis become flat or just after. I'm in camp one. I have no idea who on this forum fits where.

Just a guess, since I can't get out there on snow to check .... and this is a brand new armchair thought. Maybe flexion turns need the touch to come early, as a trigger of the release, since that release gets skis onto new edges so much faster than an extension release. Maybe the extension turns can tolerate a later pole touch since they take more time. Totally guessing here.
 
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