Where do you see most performance plateaus occur?

[bud heishman]

This is an excellent conceptual model. I really like it.

Let's talk about when the thing blocking advancement is @bud heishman's second category: PSYCHOLOGICAL.

IME the biggest psychological impediment for skiers is unjustified fear. This could be the same thing as wanting to not go too fast and lose control, with personal injury envisioned as a result. I'm sure there are other psychological blockages, but fear is the one I deal with the most often with my clients.

So how do people here replace that fear with a "go there" state of mind?

Liquidfeet, I believe at the intermediate plateau level these braking movements are ingrained in the motor memory long after FEAR has left the arena. This level skier typically is not fearful because they have perfected their pivot turn entries or their stem entries. They have learned to be comfortable with the tactics knowing their speed is under control.

There SUBCONCIOUS INTENTIONS are to BRAKE rather than GO. They don't even realize a different movement pattern could change their life and enjoyment of skiing. They are not fearful and their anxiety level could be on the same plane as an expert skier who carves like a ginsu knife. This skier needs an EPIPHANY to break the habit.

We generally deal more with the fear aspect or anxiety level too high in the beginner arena. During the intermediate stages of ski development the psychological challenges change from fear to intention.

 

[mdf]

Spot on with the rotation of the skis when flat. Some folk (like my missus) just can't bring themselves to resist pivoting the skis at that point.

movements are ingrained in the motor memory

There SUBCONCIOUS INTENTIONS are to BRAKE rather than GO.

I'm not convinced. In my own case, the problem wasn't intention. It was simply that deeply ingrained motor habits are hard to overwrite. It took a lot of repetitions while paying attention to what I was doing to eventually get there.

 

[Rod9301]

Liquidfeet, I believe at the intermediate plateau level these braking movements are ingrained in the motor memory long after FEAR has left the arena. This level skier typically is not fearful because they have perfected their pivot turn entries or their stem entries. They have learned to be comfortable with the tactics knowing their speed is under control.

There SUBCONCIOUS INTENTIONS are to BRAKE rather than GO. They don't even realize a different movement pattern could change their life and enjoyment of skiing. They are not fearful and their anxiety level could be on the same plane as an expert skier who carves like a ginsu knife. This skier needs an EPIPHANY to break the habit.

We generally deal more with the fear aspect or anxiety level too high in the beginner arena. During the intermediate stages of ski development the psychological challenges change from fear to intention.

Fear doesn't happen just to beginners.

Everybody, including experts, have a fear threshold.
Never met anyone who didn't.

 

[geepers]

Yeah, that's a slightly different phenomenon.

This is ref-ing the high edge angle, harder to break out thing...?

Yeah, I'm just having a hard time getting the physics of that to work in my head. If this was a leaning motorcycle in a fast turn with the two rotating wheels providing gyroscopic stability then we'd be on the same page. Why do big centripetal forces inherently lock the ski into the groove? Big forces available to exit the groove too.

I'm not convinced. In my own case, the problem wasn't intention. It was simply that deeply ingrained motor habits are hard to overwrite. It took a lot of repetitions while paying attention to what I was doing to eventually get there.

Yep, "deeply ingrained motor habits". I think that says it better. In my wife's case (and some other skiers I know) it's not a conscious move.

Some ways back my wife took several lessons with professional instructors to try to get carving. It caused so much frustration that she gave up skiing for 5 years ! Since doing CSIA courses I've tried various methods but she always ends up pivoting those skis. She's an ultra-careful skier and unwilling to go beyond a certain speed which doesn't help - not much force to balance against.

It's not easy to suggest improvements to a near and dear (the other side of the coin to @AmyPJ ) so I recommend nothing unless asked. (And even then...) Usually works out about 10 minutes per season. The z-turning has stopped and she now makes nice smooth brushed turns, edging well through the last 1/3rd of the turn.

Unwilling to risk another 5 year (or longer) hiatus.

 

[JESinstr]

Some ways back my wife took several lessons with professional instructors to try to get carving. It caused so much frustration that she gave up skiing for 5 years ! Since doing CSIA courses I've tried various methods but she always ends up pivoting those skis. She's an ultra-careful skier and unwilling to go beyond a certain speed which doesn't help - not much force to balance against.

So this begs the question on why a majority of progressions emphasize rotary movements does it not? I no longer address rotary at the entry level. I teach "Go There" aka Carving Process, aka conversion of straight line travel into circular travel, be it in wedge formation or parallel.

Rotary happens. But the nut that needs to be cracked is whether rotary is intentional and in support of the Carving Process or destructive in favor of bracing against the pull of Gravity. The sooner you learn to trust the ski and the function is it trying to accomplish the sooner fear will be a non issue.

 

[bud heishman]

Fear doesn't happen just to beginners.

Everybody, including experts, have a fear threshold.
Never met anyone who didn't.

My assumption was that by the time a skier reaches an "intermediate" level of competency, they are probably pretty comfortable on "intermediate" terrain and past the initial beginner fears. Their ingrained habits which likely originated in fear and the need of self preservation have past, yet the movement patterns persist. It is at this stage the psychological that needs addressed is not really fear but the epiphany of "Intention to turn" is it to GO or to BRAKE. The skier must certainly be past the fearful stage for this to happen.

I guess to further clarify, I am not necessarily talking about carving or not. The GO intention starts with the turn initiation. The skier either RELEASES the platform they have developed through the last turn finish or the cling to that platform while stemming to start a new turn OR they over pivot their tails cutting off the top of the turn to brake "Don't go there". This release can and should be learned in the beginning wedge turns but if not, anywhere along the skier's progression this GO intent can be learned. The mechanics of the turn don't lie and a competent instructor/coach will recognize the skier's intention to turn in the first few turns the skier makes. It is night and day. The skier either steps on the gas and gives into gravity or the resist any acceleration as the skis enter the fall line. This does not necessarily have anything to do with FEAR at the intermediate stage. Change your INTENTION TO TURN and watch how quickly the techique improves, balance improves, ease of turning the skis improves.

Certainly, we all have our FEAR threshold which clicks at different levels for different skiers. I believe it's important to recognize where your trigger point is and note how your "GO" intentions, if you possess them, switch to BRAKING intentions. This is totally normal, but expert skiers don't call braking, DON'T GO THERE intent, "turning". You are either braking or turning and this is on a spectrum. Once your skis are traveling 45 degrees or more to your direction of travel, you are braking more than turning and visa versa, if your skis are pointed less than 45 degrees to the direction of travel you are turning more than braking. Expert skiers have the intention to minimize this steering angle as much as possible all the time but will adjust at will to make the skis go where they want them to go.

 

[AmyPJ]

The most recent issue of the PSIA magazine has as a cover story "Rethink Movement Analysis With Eye on Student Intention".

 

[LiquidFeet]

The skier either RELEASES the platform they have developed through the last turn finish or the cling to that platform while stemming to start a new turn OR they over pivot their tails cutting off the top of the turn to brake "Don't go there".

Let's make this into a refrigerator magnet. @bud heishman, is it OK for me to paraphrase the three initiations you just identified?

1. Release the grip of the old outside ski and allow the skis to tip and turn.
2. Hold onto that grip & stem the new outside ski onto its edge; stand on it to start the new turn.
3. Pivot the tails outward to point the skis in the new direction, then skid in a diagonal traverse.

 

[Wilhelmson]

As an aspiring to be better skier I think its more how to keep even pressure on the full edge throughout the turn. The subtle adjustments throughout the turn that are difficult to maintain day in day out. My turns can be pretty nice some days or pretty sloppy others.

 

[Rod9301]

My assumption was that by the time a skier reaches an "intermediate" level of competency, they are probably pretty comfortable on "intermediate" terrain and past the initial beginner fears. Their ingrained habits which likely originated in fear and the need of self preservation have past, yet the movement patterns persist. It is at this stage the psychological that needs addressed is not really fear but the epiphany of "Intention to turn" is it to GO or to BRAKE. The skier must certainly be past the fearful stage for this to happen.

I guess to further clarify, I am not necessarily talking about carving or not. The GO intention starts with the turn initiation. The skier either RELEASES the platform they have developed through the last turn finish or the cling to that platform while stemming to start a new turn OR they over pivot their tails cutting off the top of the turn to brake "Don't go there". This release can and should be learned in the beginning wedge turns but if not, anywhere along the skier's progression this GO intent can be learned. The mechanics of the turn don't lie and a competent instructor/coach will recognize the skier's intention to turn in the first few turns the skier makes. It is night and day. The skier either steps on the gas and gives into gravity or the resist any acceleration as the skis enter the fall line. This does not necessarily have anything to do with FEAR at the intermediate stage. Change your INTENTION TO TURN and watch how quickly the techique improves, balance improves, ease of turning the skis improves.

Certainly, we all have our FEAR threshold which clicks at different levels for different skiers. I believe it's important to recognize where your trigger point is and note how your "GO" intentions, if you possess them, switch to BRAKING intentions. This is totally normal, but expert skiers don't call braking, DON'T GO THERE intent, "turning". You are either braking or turning and this is on a spectrum. Once your skis are traveling 45 degrees or more to your direction of travel, you are braking more than turning and visa versa, if your skis are pointed less than 45 degrees to the direction of travel you are turning more than braking. Expert skiers have the intention to minimize this steering angle as much as possible all the time but will adjust at will to make the skis go where they want them to go.

My favorite kind of terrain is where you have to finish the turn 90 degrees to the fall line, typically narrow and 45 degrees plus.

 

[JESinstr]

I guess to further clarify, I am not necessarily talking about carving or not. The GO intention starts with the turn initiation.

I would have been with you 100 percent if you would have stopped here.

The skier either RELEASES the platform they have developed through the last turn finish or the cling to that platform while stemming to start a new turn OR they over pivot their tails cutting off the top of the turn to brake "Don't go there". This release can and should be learned in the beginning wedge turns but if not, anywhere along the skier's progression this GO intent can be learned. The mechanics of the turn don't lie and a competent instructor/coach will recognize the skier's intention to turn in the first few turns the skier makes. It is night and day. The skier either steps on the gas and gives into gravity or the resist any acceleration as the skis enter the fall line. This does not necessarily have anything to do with FEAR at the intermediate stage. Change your INTENTION TO TURN and watch how quickly the techique improves, balance improves, ease of turning the skis improves.

Certainly, we all have our FEAR threshold which clicks at different levels for different skiers. I believe it's important to recognize where your trigger point is and note how your "GO" intentions, if you possess them, switch to BRAKING intentions. This is totally normal, but expert skiers don't call braking, DON'T GO THERE intent, "turning". You are either braking or turning and this is on a spectrum. Once your skis are traveling 45 degrees or more to your direction of travel, you are braking more than turning and visa versa, if your skis are pointed less than 45 degrees to the direction of travel you are turning more than braking. Expert skiers have the intention to minimize this steering angle as much as possible all the time but will adjust at will to make the skis go where they want them to go.

Bud, I may have misinterpreted the above but are you claiming that the Transition Phase is part of the Initiation Phase?

IMO the Transition Phase has the objective of repositioning the COM to a centered stance over the inside edge of the new outside ski and there are a number of ways to make that happen including a number of stemming moves...Their effectiveness is determined by the situation and velocity in which they are used.

Also, I know we are using the word "Fear" but maybe it is more about anxiety . One of my favorite advanced exercises is doing Stivots down a wide open solid Blue. Executing a high speed pivot slip still invokes anxiety and this is because I am trying to reposition my COM while in an unstable slippery state. Once I get centered however, confidence and intent ensue.

 

[Disinterested]

Guess when it comes to keeping the ski in the groove it's cutting in the snow I've become a convert to the dogma of platform angle.

I don't think I expressed myself too well here so I'm going to word salad:

What I'm talking about isn't to do with the question of holding vis a vis angles in body vs angles in ski. It's about the relative leeway you have in the accuracy of your movements rotationally and fore/aft to still keep the ski tracking for different phases of the turn and different absolute edge angles.

For example: I can have platform angle but I can still rotate hard enough to prevent the tail tracking the tip. I can also prevent the tail from perfectly following the tip by manipulating where I'm standing along the length.

When you have low overall edge angle in the first half of the arc you've got this big dilemma constantly playing out:

I want to change direction.
If I want the ski design to help me, the ski has to bend.
For the ski to bend, it has to be tipped on to an edge.
The more I want it to bend, the higher angle it has to be tipped up to.
The higher that angle is, the more I have to move inside.
To move inside without falling down on my ass, the more the force pushing back from the ski has to be.
Which means the more I have to move in, until I find some sort of equilibrium between how much I move in vs how fast I want to turn vs how much I can move in without falling down given my weight, speed, the ski's sidecut radius.

The types of movements that promote obtaining platform angle help create this outcome because they create angulation, which enables you to tip the ski to a higher angle while moving your whole body inside the turn a relatively a smaller amount.

Good skiers hack this cycle in a tiny handful of ways. Primarily they either

a) Stivot: rapidly actively rotate the ski on a low angle/in the air/unweighted, then choose a moment to hook the ski up to its critical angle and step on it and carve out the remainder.
or b) Juice the tip of the ski for a little extra turning force, which means you can either move in more even faster (because the ski turning faster while working on the snow generates more centripetal force) or choose to move in less to obtain the same turning outcome.

Punters hack this cycle...in the exact same ways, less glamorously. (They also stem, which you can consider to be just stivoting your skis one at a time).

They stivot, often by rotating their whole bodies to create a really big turning effect to get the skis to turn faster. That big turning force they get out of the ski also helps to offset the fact they may have created a lot of inclination. But that little bit of carving, if it exists, might only occur across the hill. Super common in intermediates.

A larger than expected number are too far forward, but that's often partly a result of what's already happened with regard to rotating with the whole body. This often keeps the skis rotating late in the turn.

One thing among many that seperates the way the elite skier vs punters do this is how much overall edge angle there is.

-

So what happens if you tip your ski to a high edge angle and try to then rotate it aggressively in the turn?

Often, very little. For one, the higher the angle the ski is tipped up to, the more rotating the ski in to the turn is really just torquing the tip more in to the snow surface. For another, if you're laid over trying to roll the ski up, you're in a biomechanically disadvantaged position to actually be able to rotate your femur.

And, why would you want to? The ski is turning at a reasonable rate in this position, probably.

If your edge angle is low, on the other hand, your ski is working against less friction, your rotational effort is translated in to more ski turning (instead of tip pressing), and you're more biomechanically advantaged in being able to rotate your femur to do this.

And, you're more likely to want or need to, because your ski is creating minimal turning effects.

So even though it might seem to a lot of mindsets a slightly perverse way of looking at it, in my view it's actually in some ways easier to do a technically less sound turn if you're not willing to create more edge angle.

 

[D. Trenker]

Where I see most performance plateaus occur is Ontario.

 

[bud heishman]

I would have been with you 100 percent if you would have stopped here.


Bud, I may have misinterpreted the above but are you claiming that the Transition Phase is part of the Initiation Phase?

IMO the Transition Phase has the objective of repositioning the COM to a centered stance over the inside edge of the new outside ski and there are a number of ways to make that happen including a number of stemming moves...Their effectiveness is determined by the situation and velocity in which they are used. (Are you repositioning to a centered stance or are you passing through a centered stance?) There are GO intents and Braking intents in this phase.

Also, I know we are using the word "Fear" but maybe it is more about anxiety . One of my favorite advanced exercises is doing Stivots down a wide open solid Blue. Executing a high speed pivot slip still invokes anxiety and this is because I am trying to reposition my COM while in an unstable slippery state. Once I get centered however, confidence and intent ensue. (until you catch a downhill edge!) hehe

Not sure how you view turn phases and we can get lost in semantics. I have evolved to talk about turn phases in a more sensory based language "Engage, Redirect, Release" phases. Engage to me means what I think you are referring to as "transition"? This is where I feel the new inside edge engage in the snow, whether it is a high edge angle carve or a low edge angle rotary based intent. This is a brief momentary segment of the whole turn. Then as deflection is created the "Redirection" phase occurs as the CoM is being redirected toward the intended direction. Once the inertia is moving in the intended direction the "Release" phase begins, which begins as the CoM begins to get closer to the feet and begins on a convergent path with the feet and continues until the "engagement" point.

Agree on the fear vs. anxiety part. Managing the anxiety level to be optimum for learning is the goal. Too little and there is boredom, too much and there is tension and self preservation reflex, optimum and there is focus and learning. My point is the psychological area is not just about anxiety. It also includes intention to turn, tactics, etc. Intention to turn is a huge area that just now is seemingly getting more attention and can offer a huge epiphany to many who are stuck on a plateau, unconsciously using defensive, braking movements to begin their turns. I again note that many if not most PSIA level II candidates I have worked with have a sequential initiation to their parallel turn demos, which is in my book a fail and shows a lack of understanding of the parallel turn mechanics which use a simultaneous release of both skis. Stemming entries cause braking and are not by definition a GO turn intent.

Just for contrast comparison wedge turn initiations from across the fall line:

Wedge turn with braking intent: generally begins with a wide higher angle edge and an "active" weight shift to the new outside ski with the upper body tipping outward. This method is a defensive braking method that is very antagonistic with the inside ski's deflection. The skier must create more deflection from the outside ski to overcome the deflection offered from the inside ski. This often paralyzes skiers in a twisted contorted body position creating an inside ski edge lock. THIS IS SILLY in my opinion, why work against yourself.

Wedge turn with GO intent:
Beginning in a smaller gliding wedge, rather than actively shifting more weight toward the outside ski, or creating more edge angle, or creating a greater steering angle on the outside ski to create MORE deflection to overcome the inside skis resistance, The Go intent turn simply releases the resistance from the downhill ski to "passively" cause a shift in weight toward the outside ski as the turn begins. This resistance is released by any combination of flattening the ski, reducing ski's steering angle, and/or reducing pressure on the downhill ski. This allows the tips to seek the fall line without any braking. There is less muscular effort and less body contorting. Using these turn mechanics the wedge turn quickly morphs into a christie and then parallel turn because it uses parallel turn mechanics from the beginning.

If we understand that the only thing keeping our skis from turning into the fall line with the pull of gravity is the platform created by the downhill ski, we can learn to release this platform from a good body position (head over the DRIP ZONE) so the skis will turn effortlessly into the fall line. This HUGE difference in mechanics causes many plateaus

 

[JESinstr]

Not sure how you view turn phases and we can get lost in semantics. I have evolved to talk about turn phases in a more sensory based language "Engage, Redirect, Release" phases. Engage to me means what I think you are referring to as "transition"? This is where I feel the new inside edge engage in the snow, whether it is a high edge angle carve or a low edge angle rotary based intent. This is a brief momentary segment of the whole turn. Then as deflection is created the "Redirection" phase occurs as the CoM is being redirected toward the intended direction. Once the inertia is moving in the intended direction the "Release" phase begins, which begins as the CoM begins to get closer to the feet and begins on a convergent path with the feet and continues until the "engagement" point.

No Problem. I can work with your identifiers. The question I have is you seem to imply that the convergence path is uniform and constant. IMO Release is highly situational and there are a number of techniques to accomplish the journey between Release and Engage. These techniques are based on ski configuration (wedge/stem/parallel), ability, space constraints, velocity and let us not forget just plain preference. Regardless, Release needs to support an Early (above the fall line) and properly centered engagement which is paramount if the intent is to get the ski moving in the "Go There" direction. Whether you are a fan of Tom Gellie or JF or whoever, if your Release to Engage pathway can't get the ski to engage early through the center of shape then redirection, as a result of the carving process, will tend to be problematic.

Agree on the fear vs. anxiety part. Managing the anxiety level to be optimum for learning is the goal. Too little and there is boredom, too much and there is tension and self preservation reflex, optimum and there is focus and learning. My point is the psychological area is not just about anxiety. It also includes intention to turn, tactics, etc. Intention to turn is a huge area that just now is seemingly getting more attention and can offer a huge epiphany to many who are stuck on a plateau, unconsciously using defensive, braking movements to begin their turns. I again note that many if not most PSIA level II candidates I have worked with have a sequential initiation to their parallel turn demos, which is in my book a fail and shows a lack of understanding of the parallel turn mechanics which use a simultaneous release of both skis. Stemming entries cause braking and are not by definition a GO turn intent.

Just for contrast comparison wedge turn initiations from across the fall line:

Wedge turn with braking intent: generally begins with a wide higher angle edge and an "active" weight shift to the new outside ski with the upper body tipping outward. This method is a defensive braking method that is very antagonistic with the inside ski's deflection. The skier must create more deflection from the outside ski to overcome the deflection offered from the inside ski. This often paralyzes skiers in a twisted contorted body position creating an inside ski edge lock. THIS IS SILLY in my opinion, why work against yourself.

Wedge turn with GO intent:
Beginning in a smaller gliding wedge, rather than actively shifting more weight toward the outside ski, or creating more edge angle, or creating a greater steering angle on the outside ski to create MORE deflection to overcome the inside skis resistance, The Go intent turn simply releases the resistance from the downhill ski to "passively" cause a shift in weight toward the outside ski as the turn begins. This resistance is released by any combination of flattening the ski, reducing ski's steering angle, and/or reducing pressure on the downhill ski. This allows the tips to seek the fall line without any braking. There is less muscular effort and less body contorting. Using these turn mechanics the wedge turn quickly morphs into a christie and then parallel turn because it uses parallel turn mechanics from the beginning.

If we understand that the only thing keeping our skis from turning into the fall line with the pull of gravity is the platform created by the downhill ski, we can learn to release this platform from a good body position (head over the DRIP ZONE) so the skis will turn effortlessly into the fall line. This HUGE difference in mechanics causes many plateaus

Agreed and I have found this plateau is easily overcome when the skier discovers that it is the softening/shortening of the inside leg that enables the outside.

Preaching to the choir here!

 

[geepers]

I don't think I expressed myself too well here so I'm going to word salad:

What I'm talking about isn't to do with the question of holding vis a vis angles in body vs angles in ski. It's about the relative leeway you have in the accuracy of your movements rotationally and fore/aft to still keep the ski tracking for different phases of the turn and different absolute edge angles.

For example: I can have platform angle but I can still rotate hard enough to prevent the tail tracking the tip. I can also prevent the tail from perfectly following the tip by manipulating where I'm standing along the length.

When you have low overall edge angle in the first half of the arc you've got this big dilemma constantly playing out:

I want to change direction.
If I want the ski design to help me, the ski has to bend.
For the ski to bend, it has to be tipped on to an edge.
The more I want it to bend, the higher angle it has to be tipped up to.
The higher that angle is, the more I have to move inside.
To move inside without falling down on my ass, the more the force pushing back from the ski has to be.
Which means the more I have to move in, until I find some sort of equilibrium between how much I move in vs how fast I want to turn vs how much I can move in without falling down given my weight, speed, the ski's sidecut radius.

The types of movements that promote obtaining platform angle help create this outcome because they create angulation, which enables you to tip the ski to a higher angle while moving your whole body inside the turn a relatively a smaller amount.

Good skiers hack this cycle in a tiny handful of ways. Primarily they either

a) Stivot: rapidly actively rotate the ski on a low angle/in the air/unweighted, then choose a moment to hook the ski up to its critical angle and step on it and carve out the remainder.
or b) Juice the tip of the ski for a little extra turning force, which means you can either move in more even faster (because the ski turning faster while working on the snow generates more centripetal force) or choose to move in less to obtain the same turning outcome.

Punters hack this cycle...in the exact same ways, less glamorously. (They also stem, which you can consider to be just stivoting your skis one at a time).

They stivot, often by rotating their whole bodies to create a really big turning effect to get the skis to turn faster. That big turning force they get out of the ski also helps to offset the fact they may have created a lot of inclination. But that little bit of carving, if it exists, might only occur across the hill. Super common in intermediates.

A larger than expected number are too far forward, but that's often partly a result of what's already happened with regard to rotating with the whole body. This often keeps the skis rotating late in the turn.

One thing among many that seperates the way the elite skier vs punters do this is how much overall edge angle there is.

-

So what happens if you tip your ski to a high edge angle and try to then rotate it aggressively in the turn?

Often, very little. For one, the higher the angle the ski is tipped up to, the more rotating the ski in to the turn is really just torquing the tip more in to the snow surface. For another, if you're laid over trying to roll the ski up, you're in a biomechanically disadvantaged position to actually be able to rotate your femur.

And, why would you want to? The ski is turning at a reasonable rate in this position, probably.

If your edge angle is low, on the other hand, your ski is working against less friction, your rotational effort is translated in to more ski turning (instead of tip pressing), and you're more biomechanically advantaged in being able to rotate your femur to do this.

And, you're more likely to want or need to, because your ski is creating minimal turning effects.

So even though it might seem to a lot of mindsets a slightly perverse way of looking at it, in my view it's actually in some ways easier to do a technically less sound turn if you're not willing to create more edge angle.

See where you are coming from. Less torque required to pivot flat vs edged skis.

Guess the issue here is how to address this with folk commencing carving as those 1st turns are going to be at modest edge angles.

 

[Disinterested]

I think there's a few things and it applies even at a high level, are actually a bigger problem at a high level.

One problem I see a lot in instructor skiing that creates a plateau is that the IDP or some other jargonistic teaching has implied to them that skiing not only has to be dynamic but characterised by continuous and similar and progressive rates of movement. So a lot of people are trying to constantly turn the ski one way and then immediately switch to turning it another. In reality, you need to let the ski track in a continuous, straight direction while you re-organise yourself around the ski to make it turn optimally, hence:

That's often a harder lesson for say a L2/L3 candidate skier to learn than a guest, because they feel like they always need the ski to be doing a lot.

For another, I see a lot of instructors teaching their skiers what NOT to do. We're going to work on not turning with our shoulders, not banking in to the turn, etc. And while it's true that stopping turning with your shoulders will help you carve, you need a positive idea of what to do instead. That I see creating a lot of plateaus.

So really I think you want to look for ways to set up an activity that is going to create an experience of carving so they can try to re-find that sensation through a little experimentation.

There's some good commentary on this subject here:

 

[bud heishman]

No Problem. I can work with your identifiers. The question I have is you seem to imply that the convergence path is uniform and constant. IMO Release is highly situational and there are a number of techniques to accomplish the journey between Release and Engage. These techniques are based on ski configuration (wedge/stem/parallel), ability, space constraints, velocity and let us not forget just plain preference. Regardless, Release needs to support an Early (above the fall line) and properly centered engagement which is paramount if the intent is to get the ski moving in the "Go There" direction. Whether you are a fan of Tom Gellie or JF or whoever, if your Release to Engage pathway can't get the ski to engage early through the center of shape then redirection, as a result of the carving process, will tend to be problematic.

Agreed and I have found this plateau is easily overcome when the skier discovers that it is the softening/shortening of the inside leg that enables the outside.

Preaching to the choir here!

Softening leg IS a release

 

[bud heishman]

I think there's a few things and it applies even at a high level, are actually a bigger problem at a high level.

One problem I see a lot in instructor skiing that creates a plateau is that the IDP or some other jargonistic teaching has implied to them that skiing not only has to be dynamic but characterised by continuous and similar and progressive rates of movement. So a lot of people are trying to constantly turn the ski one way and then immediately switch to turning it another. In reality, you need to let the ski track in a continuous, straight direction while you re-organise yourself around the ski to make it turn optimally, hence:

That's often a harder lesson for say a L2/L3 candidate skier to learn than a guest, because they feel like they always need the ski to be doing a lot.

For another, I see a lot of instructors teaching their skiers what NOT to do. We're going to work on not turning with our shoulders, not banking in to the turn, etc. And while it's true that stopping turning with your shoulders will help you carve, you need a positive idea of what to do instead. That I see creating a lot of plateaus.

So really I think you want to look for ways to set up an activity that is going to create an experience of carving so they can try to re-find that sensation through a little experimentation.

There's some good commentary on this subject here:

Whether I’m skiing dynamically or basic parallel turns, my goal is always to eliminate any straight lines between turns. Anything longer than a ski length of straight line indicates to me I was inefficient in that edge change and got caught a bit inside of old turn.
My first couple run routine every day is to take a couple runs directly under the chair on untracked corduroy and inspect each edge change for efficiency on the lift ride back up.

 

[JESinstr]

Agreed and I have found this plateau is easily overcome when the skier discovers that it is the softening/shortening of the inside leg that enables the outside.

Preaching to the choir here!

Softening leg IS a release

Who said it wasn't? I was agreeing with you on your observations of defensive moves to initiate turns.