Where do you see most performance plateaus occur?

[François Pugh]

I don't know if it's a plateau per se, but I see an awfull lot of folk who just can't seem to get their skis up past the critical angle and carve a clean turn. Few of them even are that interested in doing so. And this, despite the short radius "carving ski" revolution.

 

[markojp]

The limitation comes largely from blocking angles with the inside foot, and leaning into the hill.

I'm not quite sure what this means
Could you clarify? Thx in advance!

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Back to the original question, "Where do you see most performance plateaus occur?"

o At the lowest level, a failure to achieve functional fore-aft balance, or stance.

o Next, at the novice level, being stuck in the defensive wedge.

o Next, the dreaded intermediate plateau, as others have described well. Turn transitions characterized by stemming, pivoting, pushing off the hill, or all of the above. Lack of angulation and upper-lower body separation.

o At a more advanced level, inability to produce dynamic turns. The limitation comes largely from blocking angles with the inside foot, and leaning into the hill.

Are there common threads here, fundamental deficiencies that lie behind the plateaus at each level?

I suggest that the lack of functional fore-aft balance prohibits effective edge release which results in having to use the upper body or stem, push off etc. to initiate the turn.

 

[4ster]

Are there common threads here, fundamental deficiencies that lie behind the plateaus at each level

I think you nailed it in your first bullet point “failure to achieve functional fore-aft balance”or balance in any & all planes. The root here could be equipment (boots), mental attitude, physical (previous life experience), a combination of all three or simply a lack of direction (good coaching).
The common theme I see with many most skiers is what you describe in the next bullets. They are back, inside & lack independence between their body parts. In turn this keeps them from moving smoothly with their skis or seamlessly from turn to turn as they progress up the mountain.
If we think back to the original Skills Concept diagram (another lost gem which evolved into the movement fundamentals), Balance is the key that needs to be addressed & constantly revisited to achieve success at any level or to be able to breakthrough to the next, or at least allow skiers to “move through balance” .

I don't know if it's a plateau per se, but I see an awfull lot of folk who just can't seem to get their skis up past the critical angle and carve a clean turn. Few of them even are that interested in doing so. And this, despite the short radius "carving ski" revolution.

I think it is definitely a plateau & not just in regards to clean carving but a leap of faith that many have difficulty with.

 

[bud heishman]

I think you nailed it in your first bullet point “failure to achieve functional fore-aft balance”or balance in any & all planes. The root here could be equipment (boots), mental attitude, physical (previous life experience), a combination of all three or simply a lack of direction (good coaching).
The common theme I see with many most skiers is what you describe in the next bullets. They are back, inside & lack independence between their body parts. In turn this keeps them from moving smoothly with their skis or seamlessly from turn to turn as they progress up the mountain.
If we think back to the original Skills Concept diagram (another lost gem which evolved into the movement fundamentals), Balance is the key that needs to be addressed & constantly revisited to achieve success at any level or to be able to breakthrough to the next, or at least allow skiers to “move through balance” .
View attachment 144097


I think it is definitely a plateau & not just in regards to clean carving but a leap of faith that many have difficulty with.

And I call this "INTENT TO TURN" which is a psychological plateau which needs to be changed before the technique will change. If subconsciously you are always turning to slow down or to "not go there" evidenced by stemmed initiations or over pivoted initiations, you will never advance past this plateau until you have an epiphany on intent to turn. If your instinct is to step on the brakes when you enter the fall line instead of the gas pedal, you will never be standing laterally or sagitally in the skis' sweet spot, allowing the ski to turn efficiently.

 

[skinavy]

Far too much thought going on here-
If ANYONE is stuck on a plateau, you clearly should have chosen nordic gear that morning...

 

[Aquila]

I don't know if it's a plateau per se, but I see an awfull lot of folk who just can't seem to get their skis up past the critical angle and carve a clean turn. Few of them even are that interested in doing so. And this, despite the short radius "carving ski" revolution.

I jumped straight to the last page of this thread and immediately ran into this personal attack

That's me to a T, anyway, as an intermediate skier. Despite wanting to learn to carve properly, and despite having the perfect skis for it. It's something to do with the inward leg rotation that i can't get rid of. I end up with that classic kind of issue of bringing the ski around a bit too quick while getting it up on edge a bit too quick (I think the two go together), resulting in a lack of continuous edge grip and skidding the ends of the turns. The turns all start okay and then sort of go wrong partway through.

I'm getting there, slowly, with lessons (though those have been disrupted this season for a number of reasons but I'll see how the end of the season/next season goes).

 

[mister moose]

That's me to a T, anyway, as an intermediate skier. Despite wanting to learn to carve properly, and despite having the perfect skis for it.

Taking a stab in the relative dark, can you lift* your inside ski once in the fall line, keep it lifted, and complete the turn with the inside ski lifted? If not, you might be lacking the dynamic balance and drive needed to carve the ski. There's obviously more to it, and ways to achieve that, but that's a start.

*Doesn't have to be much of a lift, just get daylight between the snow and the ski.

 

[mister moose]

And I call this "INTENT TO TURN" which is a psychological plateau which needs to be changed before the technique will change.

And along this line is "Shopping for a turn". Until you can turn on command at any time, you will be at a disadvantage on challenging terrain.

 

[jimmy]

It's not about me personally. I have a good analyst and fitter, after years of expensive trial and error with different shops and staff.

You said



I said



Speaking as an enthusiast but not a professional, I stand by that statement. It's not about making excuses; it's just a description of the reality I see in front of me when I see when I ski and ride the chair with local skiers and also with other Pugs.

The people I know personally here on SkiTalk who have good custom setups that really work for them have invested hugely in time, research, travel, money, self-reflection, and self-advocacy to get there.

If a green skier walks into a shop and gets the treatment you describe, that person has basically won the state lottery. The rest of us have to be prepared to:
1) know what to ask for in the first place
2) evaluate whether our request has fallen on receptive and knowledgeable ears (frequently it hasn't)
3) be prepared to fork over dough
4) learn how to assess, both in the shop and out on the hill, whether we got what we asked for
5) go back and ask intelligently for adjustments

It's a pretty tall order for what is, after all, a recreational activity for most of us.

As it stands It's basically an insider's game. Since you are an insider you may not have a full appreciation of what it looks like from the outside. The insiders here tend to say things like, "Oh, you need to go see Sam in Vermont." If I'm not a regular I then have to have the confidence to step out of the lurker shadows and ask, "Um, Sam who, and where exactly do I find him 'in Vermont'?" Even then you may get an answer like, "His shop is in Spoonerville." No one tells you that his shop is actually called "Breakaway Bike and Ski". It's supposed to be obvious somehow. It's like the world of high end restaurants used to be - and maybe still is - where people would drop the names of chefs and you were supposed to just know, when someone said, "Fernand Point" that his restaurant was called La Pyramide and that it was located in Vienne, France. The subtext was that if you didn't know you probably didn't deserve to enjoy the food.

LOL

 

[Aquila]

Taking a stab in the relative dark, can you lift* your inside ski once in the fall line, keep it lifted, and complete the turn with the inside ski lifted? If not, you might be lacking the dynamic balance and drive needed to carve the ski. There's obviously more to it, and ways to achieve that, but that's a start.

*Doesn't have to be much of a lift, just get daylight between the snow and the ski.

I can! But I used to not be able to do this, I've practiced it specifically. I had a bad habit of letting my weight drift back onto my inside ski during my turns, I ended up skiing a bunch with the inside ski lifted until the end of the turn to try to break that habit a bit. I lift the tail of the ski and leave the nose on the snow.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I can! But I used to not be able to do this, I've practiced it specifically. I had a bad habit of letting my weight drift back onto my inside ski during my turns, I ended up skiing a bunch with the inside ski lifted until the end of the turn to try to break that habit a bit. I lift the tail of the ski and leave the nose on the snow.

Lift the whole ski, not just the tail. Keep the ski parallel to the snow.
Lifting the tail only does not promote a carve. It tends to generate a "brushed" turn.
If you can lift the tail, then you can lift the entire ski.

 

[Disinterested]

It's not about me personally. I have a good analyst and fitter, after years of expensive trial and error with different shops and staff.

You said



I said



Speaking as an enthusiast but not a professional, I stand by that statement. It's not about making excuses; it's just a description of the reality I see in front of me when I see when I ski and ride the chair with local skiers and also with other Pugs.

The people I know personally here on SkiTalk who have good custom setups that really work for them have invested hugely in time, research, travel, money, self-reflection, and self-advocacy to get there.

If a green skier walks into a shop and gets the treatment you describe, that person has basically won the state lottery. The rest of us have to be prepared to:
1) know what to ask for in the first place
2) evaluate whether our request has fallen on receptive and knowledgeable ears (frequently it hasn't)
3) be prepared to fork over dough
4) learn how to assess, both in the shop and out on the hill, whether we got what we asked for
5) go back and ask intelligently for adjustments

It's a pretty tall order for what is, after all, a recreational activity for most of us.

As it stands It's basically an insider's game. Since you are an insider you may not have a full appreciation of what it looks like from the outside. The insiders here tend to say things like, "Oh, you need to go see Sam in Vermont." If I'm not a regular I then have to have the confidence to step out of the lurker shadows and ask, "Um, Sam who, and where exactly do I find him 'in Vermont'?" Even then you may get an answer like, "His shop is in Spoonerville." No one tells you that his shop is actually called "Breakaway Bike and Ski". It's supposed to be obvious somehow. It's like the world of high end restaurants used to be - and maybe still is - where people would drop the names of chefs and you were supposed to just know, when someone said, "Fernand Point" that his restaurant was called La Pyramide and that it was located in Vienne, France. The subtext was that if you didn't know you probably didn't deserve to enjoy the food.

This expressed something very true very well, in a way I have been trying to find a way to say and failing to for some time.

 

[mister moose]

Despite wanting to learn to carve properly, and despite having the perfect skis for it.

I can! But I used to not be able to do this, I've practiced it specifically. I had a bad habit of letting my weight drift back onto my inside ski during my turns, I ended up skiing a bunch with the inside ski lifted until the end of the turn to try to break that habit a bit. I lift the tail of the ski and leave the nose on the snow.

Great! Realize this exercise is to begin to be able to modulate pressure at will. Describe what "learn to carve properly" means to you. What is the goal? What do you want the skis to do? What does the turn look like?

 

[mister moose]

Speaking as an enthusiast but not a professional, I stand by that statement. It's not about making excuses; it's just a description of the reality I see in front of me when I see when I ski and ride the chair with local skiers and also with other Pugs.

The people I know personally here on SkiTalk who have good custom setups that really work for them have invested hugely in time, research, travel, money, self-reflection, and self-advocacy to get there.

If a green skier walks into a shop and gets the treatment you describe, that person has basically won the state lottery. The rest of us have to be prepared to:
1) know what to ask for in the first place
2) evaluate whether our request has fallen on receptive and knowledgeable ears (frequently it hasn't)
3) be prepared to fork over dough
4) learn how to assess, both in the shop and out on the hill, whether we got what we asked for
5) go back and ask intelligently for adjustments

It's a pretty tall order for what is, after all, a recreational activity for most of us.

As it stands It's basically an insider's game. Since you are an insider you may not have a full appreciation of what it looks like from the outside. The insiders here tend to say things like, "Oh, you need to go see Sam in Vermont." If I'm not a regular I then have to have the confidence to step out of the lurker shadows and ask, "Um, Sam who, and where exactly do I find him 'in Vermont'?" Even then you may get an answer like, "His shop is in Spoonerville." No one tells you that his shop is actually called "Breakaway Bike and Ski". It's supposed to be obvious somehow. It's like the world of high end restaurants used to be - and maybe still is - where people would drop the names of chefs and you were supposed to just know, when someone said, "Fernand Point" that his restaurant was called La Pyramide and that it was located in Vienne, France. The subtext was that if you didn't know you probably didn't deserve to enjoy the food.

This expressed something very true very well, in a way I have been trying to find a way to say and failing to for some time.

This covers a fair bit of ground, but it's a great topic for frustrated entrants to the sport.

Every skier isn't going to need Sam in Spoonerville, VT to get himself to the next level. Just going to see someone who has "Bootfitter" on his nametag in a shop that has "ski" in its name is way better than going to Dick's sporting goods. Will you ski better with perfect boots on perfect skis? Of Course. Don't chase perfect. Fortunately you can get better boots and better skis in your everyday nearby world if you go skiing at any sizable resort. Perfect takes time and money you don't really want to spend, and delivers accuracy and performance you don't yet know how to access. Get attentively selected equipment that has headroom, but don't obsess on the perfect.

Skiing is one of those activities where you need to discover what works for you. You need to develop new skills. You need to get exposure to different conditions and terrain. Mistakes get made in equipment and technique. That takes time. If you don't search, if you don't ski much to evaluate what you found in your search, you will languish in a lower level of skill. For most mortals, there is just no substitute for days on hill and time learning and researching. There is a loop of try, feel, make corrections in equipment; try, feel, learn, make corrections in equipment. That takes time. What makes it frustrating is good skiing looks deceptively easy.

But I don't have that much time you say. Fine, enjoy the sport at the level you are at. You're outdoors with friends or family sliding on snow.

What I can't do, what I don't think anyone can do, is get you to ski like a 50 days a year skier in 5 days a year at Spoonerville Mountain and 2 hours with Sam.

This isn't about eating great food. Anyone can do that. It's about cooking great food. There's a huge difference there.

 

[LiquidFeet]

This isn't about eating great food. Anyone can do that. It's about cooking great food. There's a huge difference there.

Nothing beats a great metaphor.

 

[mister moose]

where people would drop the names of chefs and you were supposed to just know, when someone said, "Fernand Point" that his restaurant was called La Pyramide and that it was located in Vienne, France. The subtext was that if you didn't know you probably didn't deserve to enjoy the food.

A while back I was skulking for desert in Northamton MA, and I had heard that Steve, THE Steve had opened a shop there. For those not in the ice cream know, Steve was a contemporary of Ben & Jerry, and made his mark adding extra ingredients selected by you "smoosh-ins" which would be folded into the ice cream and served to you. It was a hit in Boston, took off, franchised, got bought, got placed in grocery stores nationally, floundered, is gone. But Steve had a 5 year non compete and had sold his name. His name.

So here I am in Northampton, asking where Steve's is. "Down a block to the right." No Steve's. I try the next block over. No Steve's. Ask someone else. "Take that left, go a block, right there." No Steve's. I did this had to be 4 times, and I'm getting frustrated. Finally someone takes pity and says, "Oh, you need to look for the Herrell's sign." I'm supposed to know this by osmosis???

As I said, Steve sold his name. Steve's last name is Herrell. But locals know it's really Steve's. And there you are. So if you ever find yourself near Northampton needing a sugar fix, try Steve's. (narrow one-way street, no parking, long line)

Home - Herrell's Ice Cream & Bakery—Gourmet Baked Goods & Frozen Treats

Herrell's Ice Cream & Bakery: homemade premium ice cream, No-Moo® dairy-free desserts, & much more. Visit us in Northampton, MA, or order hot fudge online!

herrells.com

Now back to your normally scheduled skitalk.

 

[Lorenzzo]

A while back I was skulking for desert in Northamton MA, and I had heard that Steve, THE Steve had opened a shop there. For those not in the ice cream know, Steve was a contemporary of Ben & Jerry, and made his mark adding extra ingredients selected by you "smoosh-ins" which would be folded into the ice cream and served to you. It was a hit in Boston, took off, franchised, got bought, got placed in grocery stores nationally, floundered, is gone. But Steve had a 5 year non compete and had sold his name. His name.

So here I am in Northampton, asking where Steve's is. "Down a block to the right." No Steve's. I try the next block over. No Steve's. Ask someone else. "Take that left, go a block, right there." No Steve's. I did this had to be 4 times, and I'm getting frustrated. Finally someone takes pity and says, "Oh, you need to look for the Herrell's sign." I'm supposed to know this by osmosis???

As I said, Steve sold his name. Steve's last name is Herrell. But locals know it's really Steve's. And there you are. So if you ever find yourself near Northampton needing a sugar fix, try Steve's. (narrow one-way street, no parking, long line)

Home - Herrell's Ice Cream & Bakery—Gourmet Baked Goods & Frozen Treats

Herrell's Ice Cream & Bakery: homemade premium ice cream, No-Moo® dairy-free desserts, & much more. Visit us in Northampton, MA, or order hot fudge online!

herrells.com

Now back to your normally scheduled skitalk.

I was in Cambridge at my Dad’s MIT reunion. A group of us got in line at Steve’s. A line for ice cream? There’s a grocery store across the street. After about 15 minutes we made it through the door. Inside there was one old fashioned ice cream maker slowly running in the middle of the store. It looked like an old, red watering can with gears. One little ancient machine and a 20 minute line. I started wondering if I was on a pilgramage to some strange ice cream god relic. Steve was there in a Steve’s t-shirt. He looked like everybody’s kinda sloppy college roommate. That was my one experience. I went back to California wondering about the folks in NE. It was good ice cream but I didn’t get the worshipping going on.

Now all these years later I can realize why it was special.

 

[newboots]

As I said, Steve sold his name. Steve's last name is Herrell. But locals know it's really Steve's. And there you are. So if you ever find yourself near Northampton needing a sugar fix, try Steve's. (narrow one-way street, no parking, long line)

After he sold it in Somerville, his somewhat sloppy self would be doling it out in Hamp (Northampton) behind the counter. But then he sold Herrell's too. Maybe it was the cholesterol?

Steve had real competition in Northampton. Bart's Homemade used to be across the street. I think they've been bought out quite a while back, too. Now you can buy Bart's at the grocery store.

Now all these years later I can realize why it was special.

Glad you have seen the light!

 

[mdf]

a pilgramage to some strange ice cream god

I'm glad I stood in the hour-long line at the original Steve's once. I'm also glad I didn't do it again. After that we went up the hill to Joey's. No smoosh-ins, but he had a hot-fudge sundae bar.

Eventually Joey bought Steve's and started Bertucci's next door Later Joey sold out to Pilsbury who then sold to some English company (or vice versa... something like that.) They opened a bunch of Steve's around Boston but none of them had the cachet of the original. All gone now.

The national "Cold Stone Creamery" chain copied the mix-in concept. The only problem was that the base ice cream was horrible!

Steve's first attempt to get back into ice cream was "Steve Herrel's" in Harvard Square, rebranded as just "Herrel's" under threat of lawsuit. The Harvard Square location lasted quite awhile, and there were several others around the area. Google says there is just one left, way out in Northhampton. And based on the post above, I guess he doesn't own that anymore either.

(Betucci's is an italian restaurant that became a locally-successful chain. For awhile it had a bocce court at each location. They had a failed attempt to go national - there were a few outlets that lasted awhile in locations with lots of Boston expats, but I think they are gone now. A lot of the local locations have closed in the last few years. I think they have yet another new owner recently. )

So to make a tortured return to the topic of the thread, Steve's, Herrel's, and Bertucci's all failed to get beyond their locally-famous plateaus.