Where Instructors go Wrong

[Chris V.]

I know that you're writing in jest but there is a serious point here. I REALLY don't like that stuff and it doesn't matter if drilling it would turn me into a Bode Miller (it wouldn't) I still won't do it. So what does that do to my learning experience?

Creates a barrier or resentment that I landed an instructor that wanted to do those balance drills again or even has me skiing out of class and asking for a refund. By all means teach me to improve my balance or relative weighting but by doing things I can do with both skis still on the ground. At least I'm telling you. The majority of people who have things forced on them in a lesson that they really don't like probably smile nicely say "great" when asked then just never take a lesson ever again.

Well expressed, and as others have responded, a good reminder that the guiding principle for an instructor must be to cater to what the students want to get out of a lesson. Commonly, students' number one goal will be to have an enjoyable day on the snow. One requirement for that is being objectively and subjectively safe. What promotes that primary goal will vary from student to student. Instructors can show students options, but shouldn't elevate their own objectives over those of the students. Tip of the hat.

For some, an enjoyable day would involve shooting the Chimney at S***w [? LOL] Valley. Instructors there will do that with you. That's not me.

 

[Pierre]

I am of the school that stays away from balance challenging tasks. In my opinion, dynamic balance is something the subconscious mind will always seek without challenging a persons ability to balance. I always gravitate towards balance enhancing activities rather than balance challenging movements. If I improve dynamic balance in a skier, then trust and learning will take place. If I challenge balance, I may lose trust from my student at the subconscious level. I want to have my students feel flowy and in full control.

the only time I will use balance challenging tasks is when I have a teenager that really has low expectations for a rip roaring fun day out of an old man instructor.

 

[dbostedo]

I am of the school that stays away from balance challenging tasks. In my opinion, dynamic balance is something the subconscious mind will always seek without challenging a persons ability to balance. I always gravitate towards balance enhancing activities rather than balance challenging movements. If I improve dynamic balance in a skier, then trust and learning will take place. If I challenge balance, I may lose trust from my student at the subconscious level. I want to have my students feel flowy and in full control.

the only time I will use balance challenging tasks is when I have a teenager that really has low expectations for a rip roaring fun day out of an old man instructor.

So would you not be a proponent of someone learning to ski/make turns one-footed?

 

[François Pugh]

Seems to me, a good instructor, like a good doctor, has to listen to their student/patient. If the student can make one-footed turns, it is an excellent exercise; if they can't, it's too challenging for them, maybe use the 1000 steps drill instead.

 

[Pierre]

So would you not be a proponent of someone learning to ski/make turns one-footed?

If my student wants to learn one footed skiing, that is what I will teach. If my student has not asked for that, I will likely not teach it. I will occasionally drive home outside ski dominance with lifting the inside foot/ski tail to start a turn if my student just does not get it.
Disclosure: I primarily work with two types of students. One is ski instructors and two is people whom have been through more than one other instructor, have alignment issues, fearful or physically compromised in some other way. teaching balance is my specialty. I am not normally given teenagers or young adults that want to go play in the park.

I am not against one footed skiing, especially for ski instructors seeking certification. Myself, I can ski bumps one footed.

 

[Pierre]

Seems to me, a good instructor, like a good doctor, has to listen to their student/patient. If the student can make one-footed turns, it is an excellent exercise; if they can't, it's too challenging for them, maybe use the 1000 steps drill instead.

In my opinion maybe about 10-15% of the general ski population would benefit from one footed turns or 1000 steps and 40% will not return for another lesson.
1000 steps is one of those drills that I use with caution. If my student is already stepping a lot I will use it because their is a high probability of success. I also use it for evaluation of ski instructors or to convince a student they are not forward when they think they are. I consider the drill to be of limited value for getting a back seat skier forward and over their skis. Plantar Reflex is the reason for my statement about limited value.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Pierre, I just looked up Plantar Reflex. Can you explain further what plantar reflex has to do with the value of using 1000 Steps with adult skiers who are balance-challenged by being in the back seat? It looks like the reflex applies to the toes and not the ankle.

 

[JESinstr]

I think some are looking at this from the wrong frame of reference.

When it comes to balance, I teach to ground zero. That is, the center of the arch which is also the center of the ski's shape. Yes, as we increase in skill level we learn, through movement patterns, to grow that sweet spot fore and aft depending on intent and ability to recover. But we must always have the ability to return to ground zero. Walking around in a circle with one ski on does little to accomplish this.

It is vital that a new skier recognizes and ingrains the "tension" feeling in the arch as a signal of being at ground zero.
All skiing movements flow from this change to one's normal means of dynamic balance ie. locomotion.

 

[Pierre]

@Pierre, I just looked up Plantar Reflex. Can you explain further what plantar reflex has to do with the value of using 1000 Steps with adult skiers who are balance-challenged by being in the back seat? It looks like the reflex applies to the toes and not the ankle.

This post reads a bit choppy but I am going to post it vs probably never get it quite right and never post it.
The plantar reflex is a fight or flight mechanism built in to protect us from frontal assault. Humans, when confronted with danger from in front push down on the plantar surface of the foot to begin moving away from the threat. That reflex gets the center of mass moving away so the first step can take place.

The problem with skiing is that you continuously trigger the plantar reflex because you are anchored to the ski and continuing to advance towards the threat (downhill). Plantar reflex, is a reflex, I don't care if you are Bodie Miller, you trigger it, you go in the dumper. The real problem arises because a skier learns to ski with the plantar reflex fully triggered and they get comfortable with being semi out of balance. Defensive skiing is the result. Their tall stances developed virtually guarantee the reflex will stay triggered and therefore predictable. A pole plant is almost always the trigger for turn transitions and temporary removal of one's poles (with permission) is usually very effective at helping to overcome the permanent trigger. If they touch the pole, (pull the trigger) they go up, get tall and guarantee continuance of the plantar reflex.

The only real prevention is a good athletic stance. In a private lesson I will ask permission to put the student into a static position where I can trigger the plantar reflex so they can identify it. I then put them into a good athletic stance where I can't easily trigger it. Once they feel the difference there is usually a big wow moment followed by hope for their quads.

How I get them in the front seat: Show them the plantar reflex, get them in a good athletic stance, (balanced over their whole foot) on very easy terrain. I stress that getting into that stance and bouncing a few times when they first start to move is essential at the beginning of every run for the foreseeable future. I take away the pole trigger that makes them get tall. introduce the visual tool which is, don't look very far ahead. (keeps their head down, makes the slope look flat so they subconsciously level to the slope and not the trees.

They also get to process what the hell they are about to run over). I want them to slow motion the top of their turns. That is, turning downhill slowly and letting the skis just gain speed through the fall line. It gives the skis a chance to run an arc into the fall line so they get a round turn shape. I encourage them to keep equal tension in the quads between both legs by moving away laterally from pressure to achieve that tension. This drill achieves speed control and round turns. Low speed is necessary to gain confidence and prevent triggering the plantar reflex.

What triggers the plantar reflex with increasing speed is, they raise their whole upper body to raise their head so they can see further ahead. Students do not bend their necks up to see. Seeing further ahead causes the student to perceives the slope and they automatically extend the legs. When tall the turns are bigger and the skier has little suspension. First good bump and the reflex is triggered. Bamb, in the back seat until they come to a stop.

This exercise is usually quite intense for the student and you need to be the eyes for the student until the tension eases a bit and they become more aware of their surroundings. They can pick up a lot with their peripheral vision after gaining a little confidence.

I will do enough runs to introduce everything with close guidance. Once they think they have it I will tell them to do it on their own. Usually they forget to set themselves up in a good athletic stance before pushing off, they are too tall and looking to far ahead. By half way down they are way fast and in the back seat. I ask them what went wrong. Some times they know and sometimes they don't but they realize how fleeting being in the front seat is and that they do not just own being in the front seat. Failure drills home the point that they can fix it but it takes some dedication to practice every point I gave them to achieve success. They usually smile while beating themselves up and do a good forth run. Most student report feeling like a gorilla and wonder if they can ever get use to it. I tell them they will pretty well own it when they no longer feel like a gorilla. I have a written cue card I can give them to remember the drill points.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

^ ^ ^ I think Tom Gellie addresses this by keeping a closed ankle in "Short Turns Fore and Aft Balance" Frontside heavy-Neutral-Backside heavy -- by keeping a rigid connection between closed ankle and ski and using the lower leg closed ankle to lever the ski.

 

[markojp]

No, this is apparently going to add to someone's confusion. In sailing, apparent wind is what is coming over the deck, it is a vector sum, the vector addition of the boat's velocity and the wind velocity. Both are readily observable. Centrifugal force is an imaginary force that is only viewed in a rotating reference frame, which I'm pretty sure is what @Mike King meant when he said "It depends on your perspective. " Centrifugal force is not readily observable outside the specialized rotating reference frame. You may "see it" but your friends watching you do not.

Two quick examples:
1) Swing a potato on a string. There is no outward force, the only force applied is you pulling inward on the string to keep the potato orbiting.
2) Let go of the string. If Centrifugal force was present, the potato would fly out away from you, radially, in the direction the string was pointing at the instant you let go. But it doesn't go that way. It goes tangentially, 90 degrees to the string. Which is the direction the potato was going at that instant you let go.

"Centrifugal force" is the feeling of your direction being changed in a rotary motion. You are feeling the resistance of your own inertia. Inertia: not a force.

Bonus round: Coriolis force.

But all of this this is why I said don't make it hard. Focus on what we do in skiing that works. I think comparisons to leaning a bicycle or a race track banked turn is something readily understood and doesn't devolve into a chalkboard discussion filled with lines, arrows, and Greek letters.

Oh you win. I was trying to make it simple. Sorta like you're advocating... which is why I've grown to loath most technical ski discussions.

 

[mdf]

We're on page 7, so I don't feel too bad about this:

Let go of the string. If Centrifugal force was present, the potato would fly out away from you, radially, in the direction the string was pointing at the instant you let go. But it doesn't go that way. It goes tangentially, 90 degrees to the string. Which is the direction the potato was going at that instant you let go.

Sit on a fast moving merry-go-round, holding a potato. Let go of it. It flies radially away from you, not off at 90 degrees. Then it starts to curve due to Coriolus forces.

That apparent 90 degree flight you are describing is an illusion seen by someone in the wrong reference frame.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Snipped from Tom Gellie's Levers webinar:

(Watch his Short Turns video first..)

One of the things that T.G. said about soliciting "alternatives/questions" from your students is to gain information about how you are communicating. It can reveal to you that some students are not hearing what you think that you are saying. Or it may reveal a solution to the problem/issue that the student has been taught but they didn't understand why they were taught it and, it may, in fact, be wrong.

What is the purpose of the drill which has us skiing with our boots unbuckled?

Is it to be able to further close your ankle joint to initiate a turn?

Is it to teach you to be able to hold your ankle joint in a rigid "L" shape to initiate a turn without the aid of the cuff?

 

[freeskier1961]

proper posture enables correct stance, keeping one out of back seat

 

[Jerez]

I tried to log in and got this image below. Does this mean I can't watch these any more? Do you all get this?

 

[Steve]

Add the www www.bigpictureskiing.com
If you have videos you've watched before bookmarked, add video before the url.

video.bigpictureskiing.com/xxxxxxxx

 

[Steve]

This is something I told Tom about, and he's working on, but apparently it hasn't been fixed yet.

If you don't have the www. before bigpictureskiing.com it doesn't work.

 

[Jerez]

Thanks!

 

[Slasher]

Well, this is my experience on which I started this thread:
Several years ago a woman moved in next door, who was the Ski School Director at one of the 3 NYS ski resorts.
I booked a private lesson with her for my 13-yo daughter, who like so many, was at that intermediate plateau, seeking to break through.
The 1-hour private lesson turned out (for whatever reason) to be relatively ineffective. My daughter confirmed my own observations afterwards and said that I am “a much better teacher.”
The Ski School Director clearly went wrong. I was comparing this learning experience to a more sensory-oriented, let’s have fun, follow the leader, with no more than one pointer to think about, approach.
No trolling or foiling intended. We have to be civil here! Judging from the replies, this is a topic that we all relate to from our own unique perspectives.
There are many great instructors out there. I guess the challenge is to find one whose teaching style matches the student’s learning style.

Have you ever gone on a first date, been written off by the other party from the outset and felt like you weren't given a chance?