Which ankle movement are we actually talking about when we say “Ankle Flexion” in skiing? Because I’m VERY confused right now

[dan ross]

• In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing? I say this because when I see bump and powder skiiers, I don’t see the high edge angles and relative difference in leg

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Regarding mogul skiing, the answer is generally no and in competitive mogul skiing absolutely not. The reason being that dedicated mogul skis are similar to old “ straight” GS skis in sidecut. While they can be ‘carved, they aren’t carved by tipping as it’s done now. There just isn’t enough time or terrain between moguls to utilize the tipping technique regardless of what kind ski you are on- you want your hips squarely under your feet for absorption/extension. Just my 3cents.

 

[Chris V.]

• This is especially stumping me as I’m starting to be told by trainers/instructors to “press” on the ball of my foot to start a turn. The only way I can actually do that is if I use planar flexion on my ankle.

I wouldn't do that. Others have given good explanations. I'll just add that if you dorsiflex, and add the other muscular engagements that bring your mass forward on the skis in the first part of the turn, the result may well be that you feel the fronts of the skis pressing up through the bindings and boots into the balls of your feet. However, this is a result of that forward move, rather than a force that you create through active plantar flexion.

 

[Rod9301]

Regarding mogul skiing, the answer is generally no and in competitive mogul skiing absolutely not. The reason being that dedicated mogul skis are similar to old “ straight” GS skis in sidecut. While they can be ‘carved, they aren’t carved by tipping as it’s done now. There just isn’t enough time or terrain between moguls to utilize the tipping technique regardless of what kind ski you are on- you want your hips squarely under your feet for absorption/extension. Just my 3cents.

I find that going the old outside ski works well in bumps, obviously not getting to the point of hip angulation.
But it helps to transfer the weight early to the outside ski.

 

[Jamt]

Why the difference in TA and GM between left and right footer? I think that's an average right?

The measurements are done only on one leg. On the x-axis you have percentage of the turn so 0-100 is measurements while the leg is the outside leg, and 100-200 it is the inside leg.
So for example if you want to compare the TA activity of the outside vs the inside at 50% in the turn you have to look at TA at 50% and 150%.
Similarly, you can see e.g. that the GM is hardly used at all while it is the inside leg, but a lot when it is the outside.

Some more not in direct relation to your question:

TA dorsiflexes and inverts
PL everts and plantar flexes as well as supports a loaded arch.
GM plantar flexes the foot and flexes the knee.
TA has PL and GM as antagonists
PL and GM has each other as antagonists.
This means that TA is activated for co-contraction with both GM and TA, which can be seen in the graph.
Approximate phases:
OUTSIDE
0-55 strong eversion and plantar flexion activity as the turn forces increase(this is only activity, not movement)
55-70 TA is starting to be activated as well, indicating co-contraction and stabilization
70-80 GM decreased activity as the forces decrease and turn release is starting.
80-90 PL deactivation while TA increases and no GM. Dorsiflexion and untipping of the ski (release)
90-110 transition with little muscle activity
INSIDE
110-175 Co-contraction of TA and PL with little GM activity. TA>PL. inversion and dorsi
175- 200 relaxed transition

Experienced skiers usually have quite developed TA and PL.

 

[razie]

Regarding mogul skiing, the answer is generally no and in competitive mogul skiing absolutely not. The reason being that dedicated mogul skis are similar to old “ straight” GS skis in sidecut. While they can be ‘carved, they aren’t carved by tipping as it’s done now. There just isn’t enough time or terrain between moguls to utilize the tipping technique regardless of what kind ski you are on- you want your hips squarely under your feet for absorption/extension. Just my 3cents.

I think the answer depends on how you ski bumps...

 

[Tom K.]

But it helps to transfer the weight early to the outside ski.

Agreed. For me, this almost always results in a more controlled, even, and round turn.

Feels great!

 

[Fuller]

I posted the below this morning on the ankle flexion thread not seeing this new thread. Notice, it appears the image of dorsiflexion relates to the closing of the ankle via lifting of the foot.

"Is dorsiflexion and plantarflexion truly defined by a simple closing/opening of the ankle? To me, there is a huge difference in anatomical feeling between closing my ankle from the top down vs pulling my foot up. Same goes for plantar flexion when walking/running etc. and simply extending my foot in a downward motion.

By invoking dorsiflexion I can balance through my heels. By invoking plantarflexion, I can balance through my toes.
In a ski boot however, I can invoke dorsiflexion by raising my toes and foot to the top of the shell, but the design of the boot liner is to capture and hold my heel to the sole thus thwarting plantarflexion.

There is a saying in bump skiing that "tips go in first" and to that extent, I agree that a pointing down of the foot is necessary, but it is an initiation redirection of the skis not a pressure move. IMO."

Good information here. Exactly what to do and where and when to do it is very hard to explain / learn when standing around at the top of the mountain.

 

[dan ross]

I think the answer depends on how you ski bumps...

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As I was writing , I wondered how long it would take take before someone posted a picture of Marcus. . I love Marcus but If he lands in that same position and completes the turn , god bless him.

 

[RiderRay]

So, has anyone answered the OPs question? They said they were confused. I thought all of the engineerng that has gone into the continued development of the ski boot was to give us forward ankle flex without side to side movement? The ankle is designed ONLY to flex forward and rearward. Geez.

 

[dan ross]

As for the OP,’s well intentioned questions, We indulge in thread drift here and I’m likely more guilty than most. Ankles do roll laterally ,they rotate axially - just not in ski boots. Hopefully.

 

[tch]

Re. the cues people use: I'm convinced different cues work for different people. They may often refer to the same action, but the way people visualize them differs. For me, "pull the feet back" works. For my friend with whom I just spent two weeks, that idea did nothing. But he really connected with "pressure the shin in your boots".

 

[razie]

So, has anyone answered the OPs question? They said they were confused. I thought all of the engineerng that has gone into the continued development of the ski boot was to give us forward ankle flex without side to side movement? The ankle is designed ONLY to flex forward and rearward. Geez.

It's a small range of motion for lateral rotation at the sub-talar joint, the "ankle" is made up of a few joints... But inversion/eversion are mostly foot deformations.

The OP knows that when we say "ankle flexion" people generally mean "dorsiflexion", i.e. bringing the foot towards the tibia, which creates shin contact etc.

The confusion was more around the instruction to "pedal". That is bad instruction in any circumstance. Plantar flexion has it's place in skiing, but it is not to create ski engagement, it is generally a compensatory move, when you mistime something etc. It simply puts you back. And you know when you abuse it because the calves hurt

The proper way to ski is not to push the tips down, but to be somewhat centered/forward on the skis, which is accomplished with: closing the ankle (dorsiflex) and pulling/keeping the skis back (some may think push hips forward, but that implies pressure too early) and extending the leg. That's about it.

If someone tells you, in bumps, to pedal to push the tips down, find another instructor. You should indeed bring the tips down, but with pulling the feet back, not pedal. Pedal will put you on the back of the boots, so there is no forward nor balance in that equation.

 

[Fuller]

If you need a TLDR: my key questions are at the bottom

I’ve been reading threads, trying to learn from the Youtube University, and doing some experiments on my own on the slopes. I understand that our ankle can actually move in SIX different ways, and I think they are all relevant in skiing depending on the situation. (below photos courtesy of crossfit.com)

Inversion/Eversion

• This one is pretty straight forward for me, as it’s the movement needed to engage the edges in a turn. Eversion is for inside edge on outside ski. Inversion is for outside edge of inside ski.

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Rotation

• I don’t think of this one as much when carving. But it’s undeniable we are rotating our ankles in all types of skiing, in order to get upper-lower body separation
• For me, this movement becomes a bigger focus though when skiing bumps or more variable terrain (powder, off-piste) because freedom of rotation becomes really obvious when trying to turn with the skis flat (ie. not on edge). In variable terrain, I’m nowhere near good enough to always be using my edge. In powder, it's difficult to feel any edge under my feet!

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Dorsiflexion/ Planarflexion

• I’m guessing dorsiflexion is what MOST people here mean when they say ankle flexion, as this is the movement that helps us maintain shin contact on ski boots, or recover if we end up backseat.
• BUTT I’m starting to feel it’s not that simple as one aspires to higher performance skiing. I’m told good skiing no matter the terrain is supposed to be dynamic.
• This is especially stumping me as I’m starting to be told by trainers/instructors to “press” on the ball of my foot to start a turn. The only way I can actually do that is if I use planar flexion on my ankle. I tried doing that on-piste and did feel a tighter turn. I’m wondering if I was really doing planar flexion, or perhaps the feeling was encouraging me to lengthen my outside foot more (ie higher edge angles/ performance).
• In bumps, I didn’t find as much success with planar flexion so still experimenting.
• I’m beginning to feel that planar flexion (or at least the feeling) is the key to unlocking the first half of the turn, as in the part of the arc before the fall line.

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Questions

• Is my thought process about the ankle movements and their relevance, correct? I’m especially confused about planar flexion, especially after playing around with it when actually skiing (see above for details)
• In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing? I say this because when I see bump and powder skiiers, I don’t see the high edge angles and relative difference in leg retraction/extension between each leg.

Some photos of different snow conditions for inspiration
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@Magikarp is to commended for his clarity of thought and his graphic composition in this post. Attention to detail folks...

 

[Atomicman]

It's a small range of motion for lateral rotation at the sub-talar joint, the "ankle" is made up of a few joints... But inversion/eversion are mostly foot deformations.

The OP knows that when we say "ankle flexion" people generally mean "dorsiflexion", i.e. bringing the foot towards the tibia, which creates shin contact etc.

The confusion was more around the instruction to "pedal". That is bad instruction in any circumstance. Plantar flexion has it's place in skiing, but it is not to create ski engagement, it is generally a compensatory move, when you mistime something etc. It simply puts you back. And you know when you abuse it because the calves hurt

The proper way to ski is not to push the tips down, but to be somewhat centered/forward on the skis, which is accomplished with: closing the ankle (dorsiflex) and pulling/keeping the skis back (some may think push hips forward, but that implies pressure too early) and extending the leg. That's about it.

If someone tells you, in bumps, to pedal to push the tips down, find another instructor. You should indeed bring the tips down, but with pulling the feet back, not pedal. Pedal will put you on the back of the boots, so there is no forward nor balance in that equation.

Let's not forget Mikaela's mantra "Knees to skis".

 

[Magikarp]

Kind of like what he's talking about here-

Thanks everyone for the feedback and I apologize for opening the can of worms lol. I think the "press on the ball of the foot" cue makes more sense to me when I think about it with pulling the feet back (which involves multiple leg joints/muscles) and not just ankle movements in isolation.

I did more training today and we focused on finding balance on the ski. It made me think of another question in relation to this video from ThomasH. In carving when we are looking to "stroke the ski" (ie. more forward during the turn's initiation, more behind during the turn's conclusion), it's really supposed be a SMALL change in fore-aft pressure relative to center, is that so?

My thinking is if you overdo the forward pressure, your tails wash out. If you overdo the rearward pressure, you end up backseat.

As an overthinker, the mechanics of skiing is so interesting to me. After watching some videos of myself skiing, I'm nowhere near accessing the potential of my skis, which is disappointing but also exciting!

 

[Chris V.]

I did more training today and we focused on finding balance on the ski. It made me think of another question in relation to this video from ThomasH. In carving when we are looking to "stroke the ski" (ie. more forward during the turn's initiation, more behind during the turn's conclusion), it's really supposed be a SMALL change in fore-aft pressure relative to center, is that so?

Yes, but if it's new to you it will feel big. Furthermore, while the resulting changes during the turn cycle may be small, it still takes an assertive forward movement during the first part of the turn. The reason is that the ski tips dip more and more down the slope as you enter a new turn, and you have to adjust your fore-aft balance to accommodate this. That's because your overall stance needs to remain perpendicular to the skis, or "stacked" in that orientation, rather than "stacked" against gravity.

My thinking is if you overdo the forward pressure, your tails wash out. If you overdo the rearward pressure, you end up backseat.

Good self-awareness there.