Whose fault is it that so many skiers/riders don't know the Responsibility Code?

[LiquidFeet]

If most adults and teens on the mountain knew that the person ahead of them (in front of them) (downhill of them) has the right of way and that they are responsible for not slamming into those folks, that would be a start to having safer slopes. So who is at fault that so many skiers/riders don't know this important piece of the Code?

US Forest Service? State legislatures? Mountain management? Shareholders/owners? Ski school directors? Ski patrol? Some other entity?

If we can agree on where the responsibility lies, then maybe pressure can be put on them to get the job done. A New York Times article? Wall Street Journal article?

What other strategies might work to direct pressure where it could make a difference?

 

[pais alto]

If most adults and teens on the mountain knew that the person ahead of them (in front of them) (downhill of them) has the right of way and that they are responsible for not slamming into those folks, that would be a start to having safer slopes. So who is at fault that so many skiers/riders don't know this important piece of the Code?

US Forest Service? State legislatures? Mountain management? Shareholders/owners? Ski school directors? Ski patrol? Some other entity?

If we can agree on where the responsibility lies, then maybe pressure can be put on them to get the job done. A New York Times article? Wall Street Journal article?

What other strategies might work to direct pressure where it could make a difference?

Who would you say? An instructor must have some thoughts on this.

 

[silverback]

Plenty of blame to go around. We had guests last week with little experience. We went over the code in the car. I think the 10 year old got it better than the adults.

 

[Pequenita]

Buying a lift product is a contract between the ski resort and the patron. The patron pays money for the use of the lift, under the allowed conditions (i.e., the fine print). The analogy is the issuance of a driver's license to a driver. Technically, the seller of the pass product is responsible for making sure that the purchaser is aware of the skier's code and whatever else is in the fine print. But no one reads the fine print, and everyone knows this. If anything, I would think that it's representatives/employees of the ski area who have a responsibility of educating its patrons.

When someone gets into a collision, the analogy is the driver who rear ends another driver. Unless it can be demonstrated that the ski resort negligently (and probably a higher level of knowingly) sold a pass product to a lunatic, the entity responsible for a collision is the person who collided into someone else, not the ski resort.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Buying a lift product is a contract between the ski resort and the patron. The patron pays money for the use of the lift, under the allowed conditions (i.e., the fine print). The analogy is the issuance of a driver's license to a driver. Technically, the seller of the pass product is responsible for making sure that the purchaser is aware of the skier's code and whatever else is in the fine print. But no one reads the fine print, and everyone knows this. If anything, I would think that it's representatives/employees of the ski area who have a responsibility of educating its patrons.

When someone gets into a collision, the analogy is the driver who rear ends another driver. Unless it can be demonstrated that the ski resort negligently (and probably a higher level of knowingly) sold a pass product to a lunatic, the entity responsible for a collision is the person who collided into someone else, not the ski resort.

Yes. I think you are referring to legal responsibility.

--Who is legally responsible for being sure the person purchasing a lift ticket knows this single piece of the Code? (No one, right?)
--Or, alternatively, who is responsible for legally allowing lift tickets be sold to people who don't know this element of the code?

New laws can be written.

 

[Jerez]

Plenty of blame to go around. Ski instructors, parents, ski area management. I don't think the onus should be on Patrol until they see someone violating the code.

Ski areas are for the most part really good at marketing. If they wanted to, they could get the word out to everyone with big graphic and colorful signage at the base and in the parking areas. Ski instructors could be more overt about modelling the correct behavior and talking to students about it. Parents could remind their kids and even drill them on the code before they are let loose on the slopes.

I also think the other thread about rewriting the code had a point. There are some stupidly obvious points like know how to ride a lift. So maybe concentrate on the three or four most important rules to advertise,. IMO they are

1. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
2. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail. Always be visible from above.
3. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.

 

[geepers]

A challenging one. In Australia the Alpine Code is clear enough on signage - including point by point on each successive lift tower most lifts. (At least the resorts in my state.) We still have collisions so it's not lack of display that's the answer.

Even if everyone knew the rules here's some subtly in interpretation. Not even seasoned skiers such as SkiTalkers agree on what some of these rules mean - see the diverse range of opinions re the snowboarder and lady skier collision thread.

MHO the biggest impediment to understanding give way to ppl ahead is driving on multi-lane roads. Adults who drive expect ppl who drive to stay in their lane. But there are no "lanes" on a ski hill.

Solutions? Tricky...

1. Apparently the Dutch have a law that if a car collides with a cyclist then the car driver is automatically deemed at fault and has to prove they were not in the wrong to get out of penalty. Apparently car drivers treat cyclists with utmost care.

2. Once hired some jet skis. The guy renting them out made us watch a rather graphic picture show of all the injuries that had happened to his customers who didn't exercise care. Said this few minutes of briefing prior to allowing ppl to fire up the engines had dramatically cut the injury toll.

Who is responsible? Resorts should enforce knowledge prior to permitting lift riding.

 

[Dolomitiskier]

I think the points made about re-writing the code to be shorter and simpler are important. Things that are catchy and quick to remember would be easier to disseminate effectively. from a marketing standpoint, if you distilled it down to the key elements, you could definitely do something splashy.

I also think making lessons more cost effective would benefit safety. So many people who are on the slopes don’t have a clue what they are doing. Lessons are so expensive at many resorts and so ski school isn’t really an option for a lot of people and the mountain just uses them as a cash cow.

We skied Stowe today and a teenager cut my 12 year old off really bad, if he wasn’t the skier he is, it could have been very, very bad.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

Just make everybody take an online test on the annual renewal of a ski pass. Make it one time so it goes on the skier's personal record (so they don't have to take the test every year).

For daily/3-day/weekly/etc passes, put in some reward system, like being eligible for a $20 resort bucks on completion of the test.

This has to be driven by big ski though.

They could also print a shortened version of the code at the back of each pass with just the important bullet points.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

And "Alpine Code of Responsibility" should be renamed to something more consumer friendly. I reckon if you ask a casual skier what the ACR is they would have no idea.

 

[Mike Thomas]

Have any of you ever driven on an highway in the USA?

You need a license to drive. You need to pass two test to get the license. Most Americans take Driver's Education classes to pass the tests.

There are signs EVERYWHERE to 'Merge Right Except to Pass' on the highway.

People drive in the left hand lane without merging right All. Of. The. TIME.

You can't make people who don't care about others care about others. Period. It is a fool's errand to wonder why or how. Sorry, but it is the real answer. "How do we make skiers aware of their responsibility to their fellow skiers?" You. Can't. You can make them sit through education. You can test them. You can make them sign agreements. When they get out on the hill, it just won't matter. They will be selfish and self centered and ignore everything involving anyone else. On the roads we have licenses, nearly everyone 'practices/ participates' daily, police enforcement, ridiculous amounts of signage... people still just don't follow the rules.

-Ski ungroomed slopes.
-Ski quicker than everything around you.
-Keep a wide berth.
-Keep your head on a swivel.

Keep yourself safe and assume everyone else is GOING to do something stupid at all times, because they will. I have safely made it through 48 ski seasons, averaging about 60 days a year in that time, by doing this.

 

[silverback]

Plenty of blame to go around. Ski instructors, parents, ski area management. I don't think the onus should be on Patrol until they see someone violating the code.

Ski areas are for the most part really good at marketing. If they wanted to, they could get the word out to everyone with big graphic and colorful signage at the base and in the parking areas. Ski instructors could be more overt about modelling the correct behavior and talking to students about it. Parents could remind their kids and even drill them on the code before they are let loose on the slopes.

I also think the other thread about rewriting the code had a point. There are some stupidly obvious points like know how to ride a lift. So maybe concentrate on the three or four most important rules to advertise,. IMO they are

1. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
2. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail. Always be visible from above.
3. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.

They need to be combined somehow for most people. People need clarity that if they are not moving, rule one does not apply. Just for self preservation people, take a quick glance uphill before you push off into traffic. I’d say 80% of the issues I see relate to entering a trail/merging and starting out from a stopped position. People, especially inexperienced people, are so intensely focused on where they want to make that first turn, combined with believing the uphill rider can and will avoid them, they put themselves and others in mortal danger.

 

[Tony S]

Have any of you ever driven on an highway in the USA?

You need a license to drive. You need to pass two test to get the license. Most Americans take Driver's Education classes to pass the tests.

There are signs EVERYWHERE to 'Merge Right Except to Pass' on the highway.

People drive in the left hand lane without merging right All. Of. The. TIME.

You can't make people who don't care about others care about others. Period. It is a fool's errand to wonder why or how. Sorry, but it is the real answer. "How do we make skiers aware of their responsibility to their fellow skiers?" You. Can't. You can make them sit through education. You can test them. You can make them sign agreements. When they get out on the hill, it just won't matter. They will be selfish and self centered and ignore everything involving anyone else. On the roads we have licenses, nearly everyone 'practices/ participates' daily, police enforcement, ridiculous amounts of signage... people still just don't follow the rules.

-Ski ungroomed slopes.
-Ski quicker than everything around you.
-Keep a wide berth.
-Keep your head on a swivel.

Keep yourself safe and assume everyone else is GOING to do something stupid at all times, because they will. I have safely made it through 48 ski seasons, averaging about 60 days a year in that time, by doing this.

We are channeling each other today. I was going to post something like this. I think @LiquidFeet lives in Massachusetts, home of many of the worst drivers in the country. (Yes, I have lived in Boston. Twice.) They're not crappy drivers because they're ignorant; they're crappy drivers because they just don't want to hear anything that inconveniences their world view, in which they always have the right of way.

 

[Jack skis]

I read the following quote in post #4 above, and didn't appreciate it. Please keep references to me out of the discussion.

"Unless it can be demonstrated that the ski resort negligently (and probably a higher level of knowingly) sold a pass product to a lunatic,"

 

[Pequenita]

Agree that the skier's code needs to be distilled to the essentials, into a catchy phrase if possible. Stop, drop, and roll. Duck, cover, and hold.

Stuff like "always ski in control" and "know how to load a lift" are a given, and "trickier" lifts like platter/poma lifts and t or j bars should have signage specific to them (while they're at it, they should tell people to yell out "bar" when the safety bar is coming down). The "prevent runaway equipment" item is very specific to a small segment of those with tele and some AT gear and pretty much extraneous language.

IMHO, it's still the resort's responsibility - however they want to get the message out - to inform skiers of the code. It's not like there is some sort of uniform ski licensing organization, so that means it's left to the resorts.

 

[Bozzenhagen]

As someone with way too many days on snow.

Positive thinking is deadly thinking. Chillaxed type B personalities with close to zero drive in their career/hobbies probably get into the most collisions on the hill. (How else would a pothead get that sweet sidehit on a cattrack and land going across the catwalk with 50 people behind them with no fear?).

Pessimism ftw.

 

[Mendieta]

If most adults and teens on the mountain knew that the person ahead of them (in front of them) (downhill of them) has the right of way and that they are responsible for not slamming into those folks, that would be a start to having safer slopes. So who is at fault that so many skiers/riders don't know this important piece of the Code?

I think part of the answer is right there in your question. I would simplify it to two rules and have them posted everywhere, shown on their tickets, shown when you buy a season pass etc.

Two rules: you must remain in control at all times, and you are responsible to avoid the person downhill. DONE

Less is more We are all ADHD these days. (Wait, is that a fly right there? )

 

[SSSdave]

Well for novices, first violation vocal warning, record ID for database. Second violation requirement to watch video and pass simple multi question test to ski again. After repeated violations, ban them from the resorts for 2 years or at least from purchasing passes.

A multi year national ski association database of those more experienced snow sports person alleged by resorts to have skied dangerously. If a person is multiply sited, some resorts or groups of local resorts, may choose to at a minimum, to ban them from acquiring regional season passes.

 

[James]

“In control” is dependent on the frame of reference. Most of those people not in control think they are in control.

 

[fatbob]

Who should be responsible - resorts

Who in turn should ensure it is the responsibility of each and every of their instructors.

But negativity wins. Too hard to educate everyone and pulling up a class each and every time someone infringes would be tiresome so better just claim it's not their responsibility.

Personality with RFID resorts if they cared could have a roving plain clothes team who could zap/ snipe passes of infringers and send them to a code marshal for re education for why they'd been dinged to reactivate the pass. Of course scans only at the base of bigger resorts might reduce the power of this deterrent so e.g. maybe Epic pass arches should be equipped with klaxons and alarms that yell" Warning asshat loading lift!! Warning Asshat!" to publicly humiliate poor behavers.