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Why am I feeling guilty?

AchtungSki

Putting on skis
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Feb 27, 2019
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48
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Midwest
I like taking a lesson at least once a year when I'm out at a decent mountain. It definitely smarts when I book it, but in the vast majority of my experiences the instructors have been wonderful, the care for me learning as a student is evident, and I come away with at least one thing that actually brings meaningful change to my skiing. It's pretty hard to get past absurd markups in most facets of skiing it seems, it's just something I have to swallow as a fan of the sport. So I'm relatively (and thankfully financially able to be) at peace with it. IMO having a great day learning, hanging out with passionate skiers, and experiencing at least one change in my skiing means it's worth the money. As the customer 100% of my resentment is directed towards the resorts/conglomerates for gouging the prices and yet returning so little of the fee to the instructors themselves. I'd offer the perspective that, if you and other skilled instructors who care drop out, I'll still want to improve my skiing and end up spending more money/time to see the same results while having a worse time while doing it.
 

rustypouch

Getting on the lift
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Jan 30, 2018
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168
I appreciate you being in touch with that. I'd love to take more lessons b/c I'm always interested in improving my skiing but I won't pay resort prices. I'd gladly cut out the middle man and overhead and pay an instructor a fair price for 2 to 4 hours of instruction but I'm not going to add instruction prices on top of all the other cost I absorb as a customer. If less people learn to ski, there will be fewer skiers which is a net negative for the resorts.
What would you consider a fair price?
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Nov 17, 2015
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7,617
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Try tracking any car
Yes, it's quite difficult to track a car; you need to get qualified by taking expensive lessons before they will turn you loose on their track with other drivers. It kinda makes sense; I don't want some other driver that I have to share the track with wrecking my 'vette.

At least they let you on the ski hill (so far) without taking the lessons, even though you could easily kill someone if you are reckless.
 

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Jan 7, 2018
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Seattle
I think the price for one off lessons at destination resorts and private lessons has gone through the roof. That said I really appreciate my local hill (Alpental) as their ski school is superb and gives great value for your $$. More importantly they have pulled together some great talent who deliver high quality on snow experiences. Their weekly lessons, adult clinics and advanced teams are a great deal, but require advanced purchase and a season long commitment ... totally worth it.

Watching my 12 year old son ski some super steep and narrow chutes with his Freeride coach yesterday (Schluct and Break Over to get to Shot Six) was pretty awesome. To be clear this is something that at best he would have side slipped at the beginning of this season, but now has the confidence to actually ski it. His coach was actively giving him pointers on how to improve his form in those steep narrow chutes and that made a huge difference.

1677454682005.png


My wife does and adult clinic and this weekend had a guest instructor who used to ski on the Korean Olympic Mogul team. 5 weeks of small group lessons with great instructors are about $360 which feels like great value.

I bring this up for simple reason that by planning in advance and taking lessons/clinics ... etc. at our local hill, we are then able to actually ski when on vacation. This also means we are not held hostage to excessive prices for instruction. Now that said for some folks the price is not an issue and they like taking lessons for big $$$ while on vacation ... no need to feel guilty about that as it is there choice. The only sad thing about all this is that these resorts make big $$ off these lessons and pass next to nothing on to the instructors ... if anyone should feel guilty it is the resorts!
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Nov 17, 2015
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
I think the price for one off lessons at destination resorts and private lessons has gone through the roof. That said I really appreciate my local hill (Alpental) as their ski school is superb and gives great value for your $$. More importantly they have pulled together some great talent who deliver high quality on snow experiences. Their weekly lessons, adult clinics and advanced teams are a great deal, but require advanced purchase and a season long commitment ... totally worth it.

Watching my 12 year old son ski some super steep and narrow chutes with his Freeride coach yesterday (Schluct and Break Over to get to Shot Six) was pretty awesome. To be clear this is something that at best he would have side slipped at the beginning of this season, but now has the confidence to actually ski it. His coach was actively giving him pointers on how to improve his form in those steep narrow chutes and that made a huge difference.

View attachment 193934

My wife does and adult clinic and this weekend had a guest instructor who used to ski on the Korean Olympic Mogul team. 5 weeks of small group lessons with great instructors are about $360 which feels like great value.

I bring this up for simple reason that by planning in advance and taking lessons/clinics ... etc. at our local hill, we are then able to actually ski when on vacation. This also means we are not held hostage to excessive prices for instruction. Now that said for some folks the price is not an issue and they like taking lessons for big $$$ while on vacation ... no need to feel guilty about that as it is there choice. The only sad thing about all this is that these resorts make big $$ off these lessons and pass next to nothing on to the instructors ... if anyone should feel guilty it is the resorts!
But if they didn't over-charge for the lessons they would have to charge ( $100) $275 for a Sunday day ticket....Oh, wait, never mind...
1677455676456.png
 

zircon

Out on the slopes
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Feb 23, 2018
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808
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I can’t believe it’s not England!
Its almost enough to make you think that skiing is an elitist rich persons sport :huh:

Try tracking Porsches.
Cranky aside. Not picking on you specifically but I see this kind of comment semi-regularly and… what’s the point other than to humblebrag about your wealth? This forum skews well above average income, but lot of people are not as well off. I don’t really see how it’s constructive. If ski instruction is an uncomfortable expense for someone, then comparing it to an even more niche hobby that’s wildly more expensive is hardly a useful reality check.
 

JCF

Out on the slopes
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Mar 12, 2022
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733
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ME
Well since I resemble that remark (with the Porsche thing) - I will apologize, if it offends you.

But, at the same time, skiing IS a rather expensive recreation, and this thread is relative to that. And there are a lot of threads that directly or indirectly indicate the wealth of members here - some, clearly greater than others. And frankly I find the price of tickets above shocking.
However I do not feel like I, or anyone else here needs to feel, or be made to feel guilty for having accumulated the rewards of a life of work or the desire to celebrate that. And believe me, I am not rich, I may have more than some, but probably much less than a majority here. I work hard for my money and have to budget carefully.
I am all for being sensitive to others feelings, but not oversensitive.
And I'll be happy to treat you should we ever meet.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
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Nov 12, 2015
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16,328
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The Bull City
Don't forget the $50 tip... per day..

There are alternatives outside of destination resort world.. I started my kids here and other mid atlantic places. IIRC the ski wee 3-5 year old half day lessons at Blue Knob were an excellent value. Rentals, ticket, half or full day group lesson.. We ended up being private the day we went, and it was a Saturday..

1677463287592.png
 

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Seattle
Cranky aside. Not picking on you specifically but I see this kind of comment semi-regularly and… what’s the point other than to humblebrag about your wealth? This forum skews well above average income, but lot of people are not as well off. I don’t really see how it’s constructive. If ski instruction is an uncomfortable expense for someone, then comparing it to an even more niche hobby that’s wildly more expensive is hardly a useful reality check.
I think you are missing the point of @martyg statement. At $400-$1000 these lessons are uncomfortably expensive and very much a niche thing. To that end it is a pretty accurate comparison. The fact is skiing in the US has become an economically elite sport, some would argue even more so than owning a Porsche as you can buy a used Porsche at a discount but not a used ski pass or lesson.

I did not take his comment as bragging about owning a Porsche but rather putting the cost of the ski lessons in context of other expensive luxuries. I think everyone on this thread is of the same opinion that some of these resorts are gouging folks on the price of lessons and lift tickets while at the same time under paying their instructors. This is a real shame as these costs make skiing out of reach for much of the population and it was not always this way.
 
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Ken_R

Living the Dream
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Feb 10, 2016
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Denver, CO
When I started this gig so many years ago there was a reasonable connection between the price charged by resorts for lessons and the value customers received from instructors in those lessons. As we all are painfully aware, the costs have since gone into the stratosphere. For the customers who still can afford to plunk down a small ransom at the desk inside the lodge, I represent the key to the "final product" waiting for them when they get out on the snow. I've always felt satisfied that I give more than fair value to every customer in a lesson, but lately it's weird- as the prices have skyrocketed, I feel much more pressure to deliver even more "value." Telling customers that the resort compensates me only a paltry sliver of what they paid isn't satisfactory- it also might look like a pathetic ruse for a tip. I'm just feeling greater pressure to deliver more "value" & if I don't, the customer will see me as failing. Then I feel resentment at the resort for creating this situation in the first place. And I'm also feeling I can't continue to be complicit by enabling the resort anymore. I'm tired of feeling grubby.
I'm not looking for a pep talk here- I'm just wondering if anyone else sees things this way (or not), how it has affected you, and what if anything you plan to do about it.

I have not paid for lessons in many years because of this. The value was lost as resorts (primarily Vail resorts around here but all increased prices) increased prices to ridiculous levels while instructor pay only increased slightly if at all. The resorts are just using you to make money disproportionately. Sorry not sorry but I refuse to feed that machine.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Nov 24, 2017
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2,216
I think everyone on this thread is of the same opinion that some of these resorts are gouging folks on the price of lessons and lift tickets while at the same time under paying their instructors.

I believe that the latest SAM survey put ski school’s margins at 49% - one of the most profitable revenue areas of a ski area.

That being said, I get how expensive it is to run a ski area. There is a lot of infrastructure, living in a hostile environment, for limited service over a 12 month period.

Besides the low pay, there is also the expense of staying current and associated certifications. At the moment I am at another resort with wife and puppy. I am here for PSIA stuff, but also a mini vaca. By the time I am done, these four days will cost $2,500 - $3,000. This is just so I can make considerably less than a dishwasher in our mtn town, and work a piecemeal job.

I figure to get my L3 would be a $10,000 - $15,000 thing. Why would I? It makes zero financial sense. The only reason is so I can strut the gold pin on my uniform that also sports a broken zipper.

Snowsliding is not only out of reach of the public. If you want to be an instructor, and you don’t come in with money, you are pretty pretty much screwed if you want any degree of sustainability.
 

justplanesteve

Getting off the lift
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Mar 6, 2021
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287
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Elmira, NY
It might be interesting to consider as a business plan, what a destination strictly "learn to ski" mountain in a major ski state should look like.
With all levels instruction. Including "earn your PSIA L1 or L2" programs assessed on site. All facilities, staff, and programs optimized for training across the range of alpine activities except racing, for which camps already exist.

Alternately, there are Euro packages to out of the way destination resorts with a focus on learning ski skills or attaining an accreditation (cert).
The costs for certs can be quite reasonable, and the programs provide social/cultural amenities some look for (as opposed to going to a factory learning center or training camp). They can't work in the US because independent instructors cannot generally organize groups and teach on mountains where they are not part of the ski school.

Of course the appeal of either idea is somewhat reduced if you consider the ski outing as a major family vacation with something for everyone.
OTOH, i'm intrigued by some Euro accreditation group plans, even though i'd never get to actually use the cert, because it would be cheap, and never-ski wife could still stay in same hotel room and find lots to do off piste in some destinations. Apparently cheaper than a major similar 11 day "vacation" "Out West" with package training option for me. Wife even hinted she could be onboard for next winter for the right package, and i know she would never go "Out West" with me. We're going to Georgia ( nation) in April, though not a ski centered trip. I do have hopes once outside Tblisi, if there is still snow.....
 
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Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
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Isn't the title of this thread also a Cards Against Humanity card?
 

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Seattle
I believe that the latest SAM survey put ski school’s margins at 49% - one of the most profitable revenue areas of a ski area.

That being said, I get how expensive it is to run a ski area. There is a lot of infrastructure, living in a hostile environment, for limited service over a 12 month period.

Besides the low pay, there is also the expense of staying current and associated certifications. At the moment I am at another resort with wife and puppy. I am here for PSIA stuff, but also a mini vaca. By the time I am done, these four days will cost $2,500 - $3,000. This is just so I can make considerably less than a dishwasher in our mtn town, and work a piecemeal job.

I figure to get my L3 would be a $10,000 - $15,000 thing. Why would I? It makes zero financial sense. The only reason is so I can strut the gold pin on my uniform that also sports a broken zipper.

Snowsliding is not only out of reach of the public. If you want to be an instructor, and you don’t come in with money, you are pretty pretty much screwed if you want any degree of sustainability.
You forgot the part where your paltry mountain town salary maintains and fuels your Porsche collection so you can drive through those mountain passes that much faster lol
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Nov 24, 2017
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You forgot the part where your paltry mountain town salary maintains and fuels your Porsche collection so you can drive through those mountain passes that much faster lol

Like I said, if you don’t come in with money it is not sustainable.

I make no apologies to anyone. Neither of my parents graduated high school. I went in the Military 7 days out of high school. Got out, learned my craft, worked non-stop for a number of years, took big risks, realized big rewards. If I can do it, so can you.
 

Seldomski

All words are made up
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Sep 25, 2017
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'mericuh
I think some of the problem is customer expectations. For the price charged, the expectation is that you can get down the mountain after a lesson or two and that's all you ever need. This has been the mindset of several people I have met who want to give skiing a shot. They think you take a lesson or two, and now you are a skier. I've met people on the hill that somehow managed to get up a lift and were trying to figure it (skiing) out themselves! They think of skiing like tennis, golf, riding a bike, etc. Get some tips then go have fun.

Contrast with something like Scuba/PADI. The understanding from the beginning is that it's a very dangerous sport and you aren't going to get there in a single day demo. "Discover scuba" deals go through all of this. If you take a break from it, you have to go to a local dive shop and get a refresher to get a recent 'dive' in your book. Scuba is dangerous and if you don't know what you are doing, you can also impact safety of others (hint, sound like skiing yet?).

Same deal with learning to drive, or really anything where you need a license to do it. Skydiving has a similar process (unless you are doing tandem jump).

Personally would love to see a bit more rigor in ski instruction and have the equivalent of an open water dive cert like scuba. The open water is not really hard to get to some minimum competence, but you have to demonstrate certain skills to get the cert with some dives with supervision from an instructor. There's also a written test. It takes several days or even weeks to do it (if you are just going a couple hours each weekend). Note that all of the PADI cert can be done in pools or lakes, you don't have to fly to some exotic place to get a scuba cert (though I guess you could, it just wouldn't be anywhere near as cheap). There's a written test plus demo of skills to get the cert.

I don't see skiing moving to this model unless more instruction happens at smaller hills or indoor facilities near population centers. If you want to ski, you would have to get the basic instruction and license to ski (or whatever it's called) done in most cost effective way (or not, you could still go to a big mountain and get the cert there instead). Instructor gives you the thumbs up and you can now ski wherever you want. Part of the cert would be how to read a trail map and understanding what you can ski safely!
 

rustypouch

Getting on the lift
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Jan 30, 2018
Posts
168
I'd probably pay $70-90 per hour depending on the level of the instructor. so at $80/hr..that's $250 to $300 for a half day. What do you consider a fair price?
That's about what you'll pay for privates at my hill, taking exchange into account. Of course, the instructor will get less than a third of that, if it's not a request.
 

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