Why Cant Your Ski Boots

[PeteW]

It may sound stupid but I'm wondering do you have to route the boot if you are using this Head Canting System or you just replace one sole with the other

 

[cem]

It may sound stupid but I'm wondering do you have to route the boot if you are using this Head Canting System or you just replace one sole with the other

yes you do need to rout the boot back if using he head canted sole plates, as one side is now thicker than it should be and they are only a "base" mounted unit not a full thickness

 

[Noodler]

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would just revive this one.

I got my left boot canted today.

The back story is that 45 years ago i crashed a hang glider and broke my femur (thighbone) and ever since my left leg has been markedly weaker and I favour it when skiing by often putting a a disproportionate amount of weight on my right leg.

I am in my early 70s and have lost strength, stamina and muscle mass recently and last season my left knee started giving me pain when skiing (and walking my dog) so I started wearing a soft knee brace, sort of like a compression sock for the knee. By summer my knee felt fine and the brace was no longer needed, but the knee pain returned at the start of the ski season so, so did the knee brace AND this is when I noticed that my left knee was slightly bowed out.

I went to a ski shop whose owner is a former racer and highly regarded boot fitter and knowledgeable ski tech guy. I didn't deal directly with the shop owner but the two employees that I did deal with were on the phone with him on a couple of occasions.

This shop uses the Atomic shim system and they began with a plumb bob and the starting point I was told was not the centre of the knee cap but the centre of mass of the knee. My right knee lined up so that the plumb bob pointed to between my big toe and the next toe over. The left knee plumb bob, however pointed to just to the left of my middle toe. Off centre but not by all that much, imo.

Next the shop did a maximum boot cuff adjustment (maybe .5*?). The they did a temporary remount of my binding with a shim of 1-2mm under the let side of the binding using a couple sheets of plastic, creating approx .5*shim. I then went out a skied some runs to see how the adjustments felt.

I reported back that the skis felt fine but that I was of the opinion that that prior to the shims I was probably subconsciously making body/leg adjustment anyways AND I am not a finesse skier, rather I am more like a strong advanced flail-er, so detecting fine adjustments is difficult. They then removed the temporary shims and remounted the binding.

The first shop guy that did the plumb bob was at lunch and a second guy did the binding remount and he said that he was thinking of using the Atomic .5* shim on my Head Avant-Edge boot but would first talk to the other shop guy and the store owner.

When I came back to the shop the next day I was told that after the store owner and the shop guys talked it over they concluded that adding an Atomic shim to the Head boot was going to require drilling holes, and other mods and would leave a gap at the back of the boot where there was some sole plate wear from walking in the boots. So instead of shims, they ground down the inside edge of the bootboard.

I am very happy with this solution as my own initial though was grinding the bootboard but I didn't want to do it myself with no previous experience and I wanted some expert boot fitter input. I also didn't think I needed major adjustments but I also wanted to address my out of alignment knee and not ignore it.

A sign on the shop wall lists "boot adjustment work: $70(cdn)/hour". They only charged me $15 +tax . I should add that in the past 2 weeks I have brought in 3 pairs of skis for the DPS Phantom waxless treatment at $179cdn +tax per pair, so I am actually one of the shop's best new customers.

So if we're to understand this correctly, they were originally planning on doing an outside of the boot "true" canting, but actually ended up making the change inside the boot by only grinding the bootboard? Note that the two approaches are not interchangeable. Work done inside the boot is not actually canting of the boot.

 

[bud heishman]

Noodler beat me to it! changing boot board angle is not the same as boot sole angle. NOT interchangeable. Sounds like the shop needs a bit more experience or training to understand cause and effect.

 

[DanoT]

Noodler beat me to it! changing boot board angle is not the same as boot sole angle. NOT interchangeable. Sounds like the shop needs a bit more experience or training to understand cause and effect.

I am aware of this ^^^ but we were only looking at doing .5* boot sole cant and the whole reason I went to the shop was to address a bowed out knee in some way but NOT because I was having problems on the hill. I noticed no difference skiing with a .5* temporary cant under the binding vs no cant.

In the end the need for a cant was not great enough to warrant hacking up the boot to fit a minimal .5* cant. So I think that the ski shop did the right thing by not doing a proper cant, just a bit of boot board grinding. The shop employees took a measured approach and consulted with their more knowledgeable shop owner and came up with the right decision and gave it to me at a great price.

 

[James]

When I was in Chamonix two years ago I went to Boot Sole. The owner, Steve, told me about his canting assessment machine he got from the Sidas factory. I think they built a couple, about €100k each.
Here’s the thing, he hasn’t used it in years. Very rare. We didn’t have time to get into it too much. I regret not getting photos, and I didn’t make it back last season due to injury.

 

[Henry]

Dear Mr. Cantology

Is there any chance you can someday offer Cantology inserts that are custom shaped for boots you don't have in your catalog? (Or do you call it a cantalog?)

 

[cem]

When I was in Chamonix two years ago I went to Boot Sole. The owner, Steve, told me about his canting assessment machine he got from the Sidas factory. I think they built a couple, about €100k each.
Here’s the thing, he hasn’t used it in years. Very rare. We didn’t have time to get into it too much. I regret not getting photos, and I didn’t make it back last season due to injury.

that machine was certainly an interesting one ... from memory you stand on the machine in your boots the table is on a gimble so everything lines up then you lock it out and flip something to mill the boot sole, as with all these systems it is a bit about the machine and a bit more about the operator

 

[Mike King]

@bud heishman, you said that in boot canting is not the same as external canting. Might you explain why?

 

[DanoT]

@bud heishman, you said that in boot canting is not the same as external canting. Might you explain why?

My non expert opinion is that be it boot cuff adjustment or boot board grinding, you aren't going to gain very much by realigning the foot inside the boot vs a shim on the shell which realigns the whole boot.

 

[Philpug]

@bud heishman, you said that in boot canting is not the same as external canting. Might you explain why?

@Noodler adressed it too.

My non expert opinion is that be it boot cuff adjustment or boot board grinding, you aren't going to gain very much by realigning the foot inside the boot vs a shim on the shell which realigns the whole boot.

It's not that the don't do much, but they do something different.

 

[cem]

in raw simple terms

cuff adjustment lines the shaft of the boot up to the shape of the leg
base board/zeppa adjustments alter the relationship between the foot and the ankle inside the boot
external boot canting alters the relationship between the boot (inc foot and ankle) the ground and the knee/hip

there is a lot more to it than this but that is why you see a specialist and don't do this at home

 

[Henry]

Do base board adjustments do the same job as posted footbeds? Ankle alignment?

 

[Philpug]

Do base board adjustments do the same job as posted footbeds? Ankle alignment?

You can go varus or valgus (in or out) or up or down with the bootboard. Ideally I am doing the ankle alignment with the (usually) footbed
.

 

[Rod9301]

Not all boots are conducive to canting. Here are two Nordica's, the top one can accomidate a Cantology shim. The bottom one, because of an aesthetic contoured design cannot.
View attachment 113105
As a bootfitter, this is something I am sensitive early in the fit process, that if I am dealing with a customer that might need alignment, I make sure I am dealing with a boot that I can do the work with.

The only boot that I am aware of with a contoured sole that can accomidate canting is Atomic but they have a proprietary canting shims. I will let @onenerdykid talk more about that.

I don't understand why all brands that have replaceable soles, do not have a straightforward flat sole.

You can cant these too, just need more work.

 

[Noodler]

This is where the experienced boot fitter who thoroughly understands stance alignment is invaluable. There are so many variables at play; with all of the anatomical issues presented by the skier, coupled with the boot forward lean, bootboard angles, footbed, cuff alignment, and canting... you really have to understand the interplay of all of these elements to produce a boot that feels good, performs well, and keeps the skier in an optimal stance (in all the different planes). This is not easy!

 

[Philpug]

You can cant these too, just need more work.

You can fix anyththing if you thow enough money at it...doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

 

[cantunamunch]

This is not easy!

Especially when those in the know are hiding the truth.

 

[HardDaysNight]

The Protocols of the Elders of Bootfitting are highly mysterious and should never be disclosed to the uninitiated. To do so is to invite defrocking!

 

[Steve]

My mother told me that I should never say I cant.