Why Cant Your Ski Boots

[markojp]

We always ordered several sets, then made a .5 bag, 1 bag, etc... we sold by the half set.

 

[Philpug]

We always ordered several sets, then made a .5 bag, 1 bag, etc... we sold by the half set.

I am talking for the Leg Length Discrepancy ones.

 

[markojp]

Pre coffee response on my part.

 

[Will Hansen]

And second with Cantology, why do you sell LLD shims in pairs, and not singles? While your products are no doubt one of the best on the market, they are not inexpensive, why make us but something I will might not need? Shims are X price for a pair, one shim does not have to be exactily half price, add 20-30% to one. (Just a little pet peeve).

Sorry Phil. It’s 100% a handling (cost) issue at our end. Smaller increment (one set vs two) is more labor to stuff the parts in bags, more bags, more marking of bags, more bags to count for inventory, more bags to pull from stock when shipping. Cantology is a virtual company. Highly seasonal. No employees. Super-low friction. Very lean. We got the idea at Costco ;-) Labor is not a commodity that we have to sell.
-Will

 

[ted]

Colin and Bus as usual are spot on

In the boot affects foot/ankle

Outside the boot affects proximal to the ankle.

So if you like walking with an full length inside or outside wedge under your foot go for in boot canting.

If you are bow legged or knock kneed go for external canting.

Inside /outside are not the same.

It the same for fore aft. If you have excessive or limited ankle dorsiflexion, it’s addressed inside the boot. If you are overflexed or underflexed due to Tib/fib ratios or Torso to leg ratios, it’s done outside the boot.

 

[Will Hansen]

Letting you know I just posted two more videos to our YouTube channel : my interview with Brent Amsbury and watching him do a stance evaluation on an instructor at Deer Valley. https://youtube.com/c/CantologyLLC

In the interview, Brent gives his thoughts on some of the topics discussed on this thread including whether to make cant adjustments within the boot.

I’ve already shot footage for 6 more of these and will post as I get time to edit them. And I have a list of other industry experts I hope to talk to. I expect this series to last into 22/23.

If you share my belief that the general public is under-informed about the benefits of stance alignment please do give these videos a thumbs up and subscribe. Yes, it‘s my business, and this is promotion. But it’s also my life long passion as learning about stance alignment 50 years ago changed my skiing life!

Thanks!
-Will

 

[markojp]

General public? Don't get us started on instructors.

 

[Noodler]

Letting you know I just posted two more videos to our YouTube channel : my interview with Brent Amsbury and watching him do a stance evaluation on an instructor at Deer Valley. https://youtube.com/c/CantologyLLC

In the interview, Brent gives his thoughts on some of the topics discussed on this thread including whether to make cant adjustments within the boot.

I’ve already shot footage for 6 more of these and will post as I get time to edit them. And I have a list of other industry experts I hope to talk to. I expect this series to last into 22/23.

If you share my belief that the general public is under-informed about the benefits of stance alignment please do give these videos a thumbs up and subscribe. Yes, it‘s my business, and this is promotion. But it’s also my life long passion as learning about stance alignment 50 years ago changed my skiing life!

Thanks!
-Will

As @bud heishman and I often post, stance alignment is about more than just the lateral stuff (frontal plane), there's also the fore/aft concern (sagittal plane) and I think it's even more consequential for many skiers. Any plans on discussing fore/aft alignment protocols with these fitters?

 

[markojp]

Fore/aft first.

 

[coupdevill]

As @bud heishman and I often post, stance alignment is about more than just the lateral stuff (frontal plane), there's also the fore/aft concern (sagittal plane) and I think it's even more consequential for many skiers. Any plans on discussing fore/aft alignment protocols with these fitters?

I’m sure we can, Noodler could you and Bud start a thread referencing fore/aft a.k.a. sagittal plane or point me to one, and maybe we can start to go down that road. My thoughts are probably not dissimilar to anybody else who has experience with this. I think for the average consumer to understand that something as simple as a playing card underneath your heel or a folded up goggle lens can actually do wonders to your skiing we’re going to want to do a deep dive. I would say that in the last 10 or 11 years fore and aft stance has been more effectively addressed by manufacturers than lateral stance, but it does need to be discussed and addressed. By the way, I am Sean Vill Will at Cantology’s partner and started this last October.

 

[Noodler]

I’m sure we can, Noodler could you and Bud start a thread referencing fore/aft a.k.a. sagittal plane or point me to one, and maybe we can start to go down that road. My thoughts are probably not dissimilar to anybody else who has experience with this. I think for the average consumer to understand that something as simple as a playing card underneath your heel or a folded up goggle lens can actually do wonders to your skiing we’re going to want to do a deep dive. I would say that in the last 10 or 11 years for our stance has been more effectively addressed by manufacturers than lateral stance, but it does need to be discussed and addressed. By the way, I am Will at Cantology’s partner and started this thread sometime ago.

Here are some posts from Bud you can reference:
https://www.skitalk.com/threads/boot-canting-and-balancing.2485/post-55837
https://www.skitalk.com/threads/ramp-delta-and-boot-binding-setup.9489/post-231271
https://www.skitalk.com/threads/symptoms-of-too-much-heel-lift.796/post-15347

I'll just add that when using Cantology plates, I wished that it was possible to order them in different thicknesses so that you could also address fore/aft alignment. I ended up having to fabricate additional shims (no lateral angle) and eventually moved on to using a planer/jointer to grind the fore/aft angle into the boot sole.

 

[Will Hansen]

As @bud heishman and I often post, stance alignment is about more than just the lateral stuff (frontal plane), there's also the fore/aft concern (sagittal plane) and I think it's even more consequential for many skiers. Any plans on discussing fore/aft alignment protocols with these fitters?

IMO folks like Tom Gellie and Deb Armstrong already have done a bunch of great content on for/aft. And, as you state, there is a lot of discussion out there (although maybe not so much from the bootfitter perspectiv). We started this series because lateral hadn’t gotten equal attention. And, since we’re sort of the ‘lateral guys’ we took on the challenge of doing a deep dive. Brent and I did talk at length about balance, and all 3 planes, but I had to cut it for brevity and focus. That footage is in my back pocket and I may come across enough more by the end of this series to do a video or 2 on those other topics. I get off in the weeds with these boot fitters all the time!

 

[Will Hansen]

I'll just add that when using Cantology plates, I wished that it was possible to order them in different thicknesses so that you could also address fore/aft alignment.

I can think of a few reasons why this would NOT be a good thing. Boot warp, way more SKU’s, manufacturing cost, etc.

 

[bud heishman]

IMO folks like Tom Gellie and Deb Armstrong already have done a bunch of great content on for/aft. And, as you state, there is a lot of discussion out there (although maybe not so much from the bootfitter perspectiv). We started this series because lateral hadn’t gotten equal attention. And, since we’re sort of the ‘lateral guys’ we took on the challenge of doing a deep dive. Brent and I did talk at length about balance, and all 3 planes, but I had to cut it for brevity and focus. That footage is in my back pocket and I may come across enough more by the end of this series to do a video or 2 on those other topics. I get off in the weeds with these boot fitters all the time!

Enjoyed your interview with Brent and would like to see the fore/aft segment when you have a chance!

 

[ZeeJM]

If there were such a thing as an "Oxford Apostrophe", this thread would take an entirely different direction. Just sayin' .

 

[David]

We used to stand a doorway with our boots on and rock left & right to see when each boat was flat on the floor. Then adjust the cuff canting and do it again until we got it right. Now my Daleboots have canted toe & heal pieces which is even better.

 

[Fuller]

I'm in the process of ordering/ installing a Cantology shim (1 degree) for my new Salomon S Max boots. I've read everything I can on this site and discussed the matter with my local guy, who may not be an Internet Rock Star Bootfitter but seems pretty solid with his theory and practice. The plan is to start with a 1 degree shim on my right boot with the thick edge on the inside.

In shop observations:
My right hip is a little higher than the left.
My right leg is noticeably bow legged compared to my left.
My right knee lines up outside the medial center of the boot (compared to left leg)
Cuff adjustment has been done on the right boot to accommodate the tibia angle.
I have older custom footbeds that got a blessing from Racer's Edge where I purchased the boots.
I don't have any measurable or noticeable leg length discrepancies but I could be wrong.

On the snow observations:
My right ski is perpetually under edged compared to my left.
A right footed turn seems like it's delayed a fraction before the ski starts to come around.
I feel like my right side is always back seat when I make a right footed turn.
My left side and left footed turns are easier.
On a level green run or cat track I tend to favor standing with more weight on my left foot.
My right ski tracks just out of parallel with my left - it is slightly toe in / heel out.

So a few dollars later the shim has arrived at my local shop. The plan is to install it as described above but wait to do the routing of the lug until after I've skied on it for a morning. "My Guy" says he will adjust the AFD plate (Marker Griffon) and mark that ski so I don't mix them up (I left a ski with him to do a test fit). If everything goes as planned as far as ski performance goes I would bring the boot back for milling.

Given the "Dark Art" aspect of boot canting is this a sound plan or have I got the bio-engineering mixed up?

 

[coupdevill]

I'm in the process of ordering/ installing a Cantology shim (1 degree) for my new Salomon S Max boots. I've read everything I can on this site and discussed the matter with my local guy, who may not be an Internet Rock Star Bootfitter but seems pretty solid with his theory and practice. The plan is to start with a 1 degree shim on my right boot with the thick edge on the inside.

In shop observations:
My right hip is a little higher than the left.
My right leg is noticeably bow legged compared to my left.
My right knee lines up outside the medial center of the boot (compared to left leg)
Cuff adjustment has been done on the right boot to accommodate the tibia angle.
I have older custom footbeds that got a blessing from Racer's Edge where I purchased the boots.
I don't have any measurable or noticeable leg length discrepancies but I could be wrong.

On the snow observations:
My right ski is perpetually under edged compared to my left.
A right footed turn seems like it's delayed a fraction before the ski starts to come around.
I feel like my right side is always back seat when I make a right footed turn.
My left side and left footed turns are easier.
On a level green run or cat track I tend to favor standing with more weight on my left foot.
My right ski tracks just out of parallel with my left - it is slightly toe in / heel out.

So a few dollars later the shim has arrived at my local shop. The plan is to install it as described above but wait to do the routing of the lug until after I've skied on it for a morning. "My Guy" says he will adjust the AFD plate (Marker Griffon) and mark that ski so I don't mix them up (I left a ski with him to do a test fit). If everything goes as planned as far as ski performance goes I would bring the boot back for milling.

Given the "Dark Art" aspect of boot canting is this a sound plan or have I got the bio-engineering mixed up?

Sounds reasonable! I'd also delve into hip mobility as well as making sure that both hips are nice and open. Lastly "don't let perfection be the enemy of just good enough"

coup

 

[Noodler]

I'm in the process of ordering/ installing a Cantology shim (1 degree) for my new Salomon S Max boots. I've read everything I can on this site and discussed the matter with my local guy, who may not be an Internet Rock Star Bootfitter but seems pretty solid with his theory and practice. The plan is to start with a 1 degree shim on my right boot with the thick edge on the inside.

In shop observations:
My right hip is a little higher than the left.
My right leg is noticeably bow legged compared to my left.
My right knee lines up outside the medial center of the boot (compared to left leg)
Cuff adjustment has been done on the right boot to accommodate the tibia angle.
I have older custom footbeds that got a blessing from Racer's Edge where I purchased the boots.
I don't have any measurable or noticeable leg length discrepancies but I could be wrong.

On the snow observations:
My right ski is perpetually under edged compared to my left.
A right footed turn seems like it's delayed a fraction before the ski starts to come around.
I feel like my right side is always back seat when I make a right footed turn.
My left side and left footed turns are easier.
On a level green run or cat track I tend to favor standing with more weight on my left foot.
My right ski tracks just out of parallel with my left - it is slightly toe in / heel out.

So a few dollars later the shim has arrived at my local shop. The plan is to install it as described above but wait to do the routing of the lug until after I've skied on it for a morning. "My Guy" says he will adjust the AFD plate (Marker Griffon) and mark that ski so I don't mix them up (I left a ski with him to do a test fit). If everything goes as planned as far as ski performance goes I would bring the boot back for milling.

Given the "Dark Art" aspect of boot canting is this a sound plan or have I got the bio-engineering mixed up?

If you put the thick side of the shim on the medial side then you're not actually aligning your stance. Instead you'll be leaving your alignment as is and flattening the ski to the slope. The reason you might want to reconsider this approach is that skiing is about balance. In order to achieve balance over a ski, the alignment should be of the pelvis' iliac crest and the center of knee mass over the 2nd met ray of the foot (effectively the seam of the boot). To achieve this in your current situation (as described) you would place the thick side of the shim on the lateral side to help bring your knee in. However, this is a bit of an oversimplification and really the best course of action is to visit a qualified boot fitter who understands actual stance alignment, not just flattening the ski angle. There are situations with bowlegged stances that require more of a hybrid approach, but it depends on the degree of your stance problem.

 

[Fuller]

If you put the thick side of the shim on the medial side then you're not actually aligning your stance. Instead you'll be leaving your alignment as is and flattening the ski to the slope. The reason you might want to reconsider this approach is that skiing is about balance. In order to achieve balance over a ski, the alignment should be of the pelvis' iliac crest and the center of knee mass over the 2nd met ray of the foot (effectively the seam of the boot). To achieve this in your current situation (as described) you would place the thick side of the shim on the lateral side to help bring your knee in. However, this is a bit of an oversimplification and really the best course of action is to visit a qualified boot fitter who understands actual stance alignment, not just flattening the ski angle. There are situations with bowlegged stances that require more of a hybrid approach, but it depends on the degree of your stance problem.

Hence my "Dark Art" comment. So now I have two diametrically opposed fixes for the same problem!

I guess the only thing to do is try it one way then flip it over (I'm assuming these things are laterally symmetrical) I'm OK with all this ambiguity as long as doesn't shitcan my new boots in the process.