Why do most instructors introduce speed control with a braking wedge?

[4ster]

Seems like nowadays almost everyone learns on a conveyor (magic carpet), just make your students aware that the stance they have riding up is the same as they should have sliding down. @James sliding backwards task can accomplish the same.

IMO in the end, the validity of the opinions expressed in this thread so far are highly contingent on degree of slope, distance and speed.

Hence the introduction of the Centerline Concept & later Stepping Stones, different strokes for different folks. Terrain, snow textures, equipment, mental & physical state along with previous life experiences all play a part in the path we choose as teachers to best achieve a positive outcome for our guests/students/athletes.

One of the great things about threads like this is that it may allow a shift in paradigm for some of us as we learn from each other’s experiences, allow us to step out of our box & experiment with new approaches.

 

[LiquidFeet]

YES YES YES! BRAVO Perhaps we shouldn't encourage beginners to "squish the bug" or "put out the cigarette" with the ball of their foot? Maybe we should encourage pulling their shins into the boot tongues by dorsi flexing their ankles?....

Oh yes. Pull the feet back please. Back behind the belly button. This dorsiflexes the ankles as a by-product of the pull-back. An instructor getting students to pull the feet back doesn't have to use the word "dorsiflex." Nor attempt to explain what it means, nor demonstrate bending forward at the ankle while the foot is invisible inside the boot. And don't get me started on the problems inherent in telling students to "lean forward" from the ankles.

Everyone can see when the feet move back behind the belly button. No one can see dorsiflexion. A student pulling the feet back feels that movement; it's rather dramatic at first and that's OK. It can be practiced on flat terrain so the student knows the shovels will support them. Fear of face-plants will disappear. Well, hopefully.

Or if the instructor is verbally adventurous, go ahead and ask the students to dorsiflex the ankles by contracting the anterior tibialis. I've even shown them where the muscle is, but in a short lesson I think that's wasted time. A demo shows them clearly how this invisible dorsiflexion tilts the whole body forward from the ankles up, until the belly button is over the toes or even in front of it. This can work. Avoiding the word "dorsiflex" in a group is a good idea.

I prefer teaching students to pull the feet back over tilting the body forward by dorsiflexing, but both ways of maintaining a good relationship between the BoS to CoM can work. Either will establish firm contact between the shin and tongue, which presses the shovels down onto the snow. Shin-tongue, shin-tongue, shin-tongue. More shin-tongue, please. Always shin-tongue.

But not just shin-tongue. It has to be shin-tongue with heel firmly planted. This allows the parts of the foot behind the ball-of-foot to support a large part of the body's weight. Those two, the shin against the tongue pressing the shovel downward, and the arch-heel complex pressing the waist and tail downward, establish firm contact between all parts of the ski and the snow. When this is happening, the tipped up and bent skis will happily do their job of shaping a nice round turn.

 

[JESinstr]

I am not sure that using terms like "dorsi flexing their ankles" is one that many beginners would understand. The terms like "squishing the bug"or "putting out the cigarette" are easier for the beginners to understand stand. Communicating in terms the average person is going to understand and put into action is as important as getting the physical activity mastered. One of the things I do remember from lessons I had was " putting out the cigarette" and that was at least 50 years ago. That was one of the light switch moments that helped get past a plateau, maybe that is why I remember it so clear as day.

The Ole squishing a bug or putting out a cigarette move only supports frictional/bracing activities because you are not redirecting the ski around the center of shape but instead from the tail.

Oh yes. Pull the feet back please. Back behind the belly button. This dorsiflexes the ankles as a by-product of the pull-back. An instructor getting students to pull the feet back doesn't have to use the word "dorsiflex." Nor attempt to explain what it means, nor demonstrate bending forward at the ankle while the foot is invisible inside the boot. And don't get me started on the problems inherent in telling students to "lean forward" from the ankles.

LF. Not withstanding the positive effects of making sure the feet are back under the COM would you agree that asking the student to raise their toes and stretch their feet is also linked to dorsiflexion?

The toes are a huge and powerful part of locomotion. Taking them "out of service" by raising them and stretching the feet enhances the tension in the arch giving a sensory input which supports the centered balance requirement. And as you properly stated, if you pull you feet back making sure the heel is firmly planted, the ball of the foot (being one of the 2 support pillars) will keep the toes from engaging.

Finally to you excellent point on leaning the upper body. Newbies bring all the heavily ingrained movement patterns of locomotion to the snow sports meeting place and forward leaning is a big one.

In general, what I am trying to foster here is that job one of the instructor is to change these deeply ingrained movement patterns to support riding the ski. That is why I no longer use locomotion based preliminaries like walking on skis or single ski circle drills.

 

[Uncle-A]

The Ole squishing a bug or putting out a cigarette move only supports frictional/bracing activities because you are not redirecting the ski around the center of shape but instead from the tail.


LF. Not withstanding the positive effects of making sure the feet are back under the COM would you agree that asking the student to raise their toes and stretch their feet is also linked to dorsiflexion?

The toes are a huge and powerful part of locomotion. Taking them "out of service" by raising them and stretching the feet enhances the tension in the arch giving a sensory input which supports the centered balance requirement. And as you properly stated, if you pull you feet back making sure the heel is firmly planted, the ball of the foot (being one of the 2 support pillars) will keep the toes from engaging.

Finally to you excellent point on leaning the upper body. Newbies bring all the heavily ingrained movement patterns of locomotion to the snow sports meeting place and forward leaning is a big one.

In general, what I am trying to foster here is that job one of the instructor is to change these deeply ingrained movement patterns to support riding the ski. That is why I no longer use locomotion based preliminaries like walking on skis or single ski circle drills.

I am simply saying that the terminology is not part of the every day vocabulary. When using it in a beginner lesson most likely you will get that blank stare, and fail to communicate.

 

[bud heishman]

I am not sure that using terms like "dorsi flexing their ankles" is one that many beginners would understand. The terms like "squishing the bug"or "putting out the cigarette" are easier for the beginners to understand stand. Communicating in terms the average person is going to understand and put into action is as important as getting the physical activity mastered. One of the things I do remember from lessons I had was " putting out the cigarette" and that was at least 50 years ago. That was one of the light switch moments that helped get past a plateau, maybe that is why I remember it so clear as day.

Sorry I did not communicate that well. My point was that rather than promoting plantar ankle flex ion we should be promoting Doris flexion as this movement pulls the feet back or the mass forward, however you like to see it. Promoting pushing on the balls of the feet can put them in the back seat.

this is the primary reason matching your boots net forward lean to your ankle dorsiflexion range of motion is critical to fore/aft balance. For example if your students are in loose oversized rental boots, they may not be able to effectively use dorsiflexion to pull their shins into the tongues. As their range of motion gets maxed out before they can get feet under hips thus requiring over working the quads.

a boot fit with zero vertical play in the forefoot area and having some range of motion left to leverage against the top of the boot forefoot is key. Until this Sagital plane parameter is proper fore/aft balance will be compromised. If this cause is ignored, no amount of technique instruction will be productive other than teaching them how to compensate for the impediment.

 

[bud heishman]

I am simply saying that the terminology is not part of the every day vocabulary. When using it in a beginner lesson most likely you will get that blank stare, and fail to communicate.

Not advocating using techs terms with students. Just talking amongst piers who understand the terms.

 

[bud heishman]

Oh yes. Pull the feet back please. Back behind the belly button. This dorsiflexes the ankles as a by-product of the pull-back.

Hmmm? I would suggest the action involved in pulling the feet back is "dorsiflexion". Perhaps rather than suggesting pulling the feet back we suggest "pulling up on the forefoot inside the boot"? I have seen skiers overdue the "pulling the feet back" thing. The sensation I get pulling up on my forefoot and pushing down on my heel maintains shin contact on the tongues and moves my Com forward whether I am finishing a turn, where my feet are ahead of my hips, or at the top of the turn where my hips are moving toward apex.

 

[James]

My point was that rather than promoting plantar ankle flex ion we should be promoting Doris flexion as this movement pulls the feet back or the mass forward,

No way that’s happening.

I also think this is a general myth. You are not moving your whole mass towards your toes with the relatively weak dorsiflexing muscles. It may be doing other things people want, or not.
I’ve never skied by lifting the toes, but no space above the top of the foot is important.

Perhaps rather than suggesting pulling the feet back we suggest "pulling up on the forefoot inside the boot"?

Why this foot pullup thing?
Do we think hockey players move their mass forward by lifting the foot?

It’s also plantar flexing that keeps one from going to far forward. And can put one too far back.

 

[bud heishman]

No way that’s happening.

I also think this is a general myth. You are not moving your whole mass towards your toes with the relatively weak dorsiflexing muscles. It may be doing other things people want, or not.
I’ve never skied by lifting the toes, but no space above the top of the foot is important.

Why this foot pullup thing?
Do we think hockey players move their mass forward by lifting the foot?

It’s also plantar flexing that keeps one from going to far forward. And can put one too far back.

Why is it important to have "no space above the top of the foot" in the boot???

 

[James]

Why is it important to have "no space above the top of the foot" in the boot???

No, that’s very important. I meant that it’s highly unlikely to happen in rentals.

Why the foot pullup method of skiing?
I regard it as mildly insane There’s a large group in the asylum I realize. They publish all sorts of manifestos it seems.

You really think we move forward standing on the ground in shoes by trying to dorsiflex?
It’s a bit of an oddity that “dorsiflex” is both a descriptor of ankle closing and an action in open chain ( foot off ground)

 

[François Pugh]

Why the dorsiflex group your ask? I suppose it's hard to plantar flex while your dorsifexing, and inappropriate plantar flexing can push you into the back seat. Just a guess though.

Try this experiment. Put your 130 flex ski boots on, tighten up all the buckles as if your were going to slay the hard pack with some great turns. Lift your foot and do your best to dorsiflex. If you can flex that boot, you belong in the circus.

 

[bud heishman]

No, that’s very important. I meant that it’s highly unlikely to happen in rentals.

Why the foot pullup method of skiing?
I regard it as mildly insane There’s a large group in the asylum I realize. They publish all sorts of manifestos it seems.

You really think we move forward standing on the ground in shoes by trying to dorsiflex?
It’s a bit of an oddity that “dorsiflex” is both a descriptor of ankle closing and an action in open chain ( foot off ground)

Why the dorsiflex group your ask? I suppose it's hard to plantar flex while your dorsifexing, and inappropriate plantar flexing can push you into the back seat. Just a guess though.

Try this experiment. Put your 130 flex ski boots on, tighten up all the buckles as if your were going to slay the hard pack with some great turns. Lift your foot and do your best to dorsiflex. If you can flex that boot, you belong in the circus.

The purpose of dorsiflexing is NOT to flex the boot, that would be impressive especially in a race boot, it is leverage against the ceiling of the boot to cause an equal and opposite reaction. I never think about or consciously pull my feet back, but then if I am moving efficiently, I shouldn't have too. Slight movements open or closing my ankle are generally enough to fine tune balance through a turn. If your hips are too far behind your feet I would guess it's almost impossible to "pull your feet back" to regain balance without dorsiflexing and engaging the quads together to change the BoS and CoM relationship?

 

[James]

The purpose of dorsiflexing is NOT to flex the boot, that would be impressive especially in a race boot, it is leverage against the ceiling of the boot to cause an equal and opposite reaction. I never think about or consciously pull my feet back, but then if I am moving efficiently, I shouldn't have too. Slight movements open or closing my ankle are generally enough to fine tune balance through a turn.

So you’re not saying lift the feet to “get forward” -knee towards toes, hips to toes, etc. People seem to always be saying they lift their feet from the toes, to ski. That’s what were talking about.

If your hips are too far behind your feet I would guess it's almost impossible to "pull your feet back" to regain balance without dorsiflexing and engaging the quads together to change the BoS and CoM relationship?

Agree with that, if you’ve got to do it quick or you’re way back, everything will be activated.

 

[bud heishman]

James said:
You really think we move forward standing on the ground in shoes by trying to dorsiflex?
It’s a bit of an oddity that “dorsiflex” is both a descriptor of ankle closing and an action in open chain ( foot off ground)

No James, I don't think that would work in flip flops or barefooted or in hiking boots, but when your feet are in a hard plastic shell extending half way up your lower leg and anchored to a 6 foot long plank.... why yes I do

Do you ever notice after your first day of skiing in the season your anterior tibialus muscle is a bit sore? I do.

 

[JESinstr]

The purpose of dorsiflexing is NOT to flex the boot, that would be impressive especially in a race boot, it is leverage against the ceiling of the boot to cause an equal and opposite reaction. I never think about or consciously pull my feet back, but then if I am moving efficiently, I shouldn't have too. Slight movements open or closing my ankle are generally enough to fine tune balance through a turn. If your hips are too far behind your feet I would guess it's almost impossible to "pull your feet back" to regain balance without dorsiflexing and engaging the quads together to change the BoS and CoM relationship?

Totally agree.
But I think there was some confusion (as least I was) in the above exchange between Bud and James.

When we perform locomotion (walking running skipping etc.), The plantar flexion of one side helps propel us while
dorsi-flexion on the other allows the foot to clear and move forward.

In skiing however, there is no locomotion. Our velocity down the slope is provided courtesy of Gravity.

IMO where dorsi-flexion plays a role in skiing is in the removal of the toes from the ingrained locomotion dynamic balance methodology allowing the COM to be managed between the ball of the foot and the front of the heel. So for beginners I often instruct them to lift their toes forcing them to feel this new centered balance scenario. This is the same reason for telling someone to pull their feet back. But like Bud stated, once you get it (centered balance) , you don't have to think about it anymore but until you do, proper skiing is problematic.

 

[mdf]

To answer the question,
https://www.skitalk.com/threads/uta...ld-not-responsible-for-collision.24584/unread

 

[SkierGolferNH]

Why do most instructors introduce speed control with a braking wedge?

Any instructor worth his salt teaches turn shape to control speed. The only time a braking wedge is useful is entering a lift line.

 

[JESinstr]

Any instructor worth his salt teaches turn shape to control speed. The only time a braking wedge is useful is entering a lift line.

Would be very interested in how you would accomplish this on Martin Luther King weekend where it is the first and only time that year where beginners will be exposed to the sport and you end up with 12 students over stuffed into the class and no teaching terrain available because of the crowds. And remember, we want them leaving with a smile on their face to they will comeback for another MLK Weekend.

Sarcastically submitted.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Would be very interested in how you would accomplish this on Martin Luther King weekend where it is the first and only time that year where beginners will be exposed to the sport and you end up with 12 students over stuffed into the class and no teaching terrain available because of the crowds. And remember, we want them leaving with a smile on their face to they will comeback for another MLK Weekend.

Sarcastically submitted.

Realistically submitted.

I especially like the "no teaching terrain because of the crowds" part.

Let me add that the never-ever lesson is 1.5 hours long. Half the group members (group of 10) show up late because the lines in the rental shop are horrendous. Their boots are not even buckled. It's 5 degrees Farenheit out there, they have no goggles, their necks are uncovered, and they are wearing thin gloves.

These innocents are eager, and they have BIG smiles on their faces. It's our responsibility to keep them smiling through the whole lesson.

 

[JESinstr]

Realistically submitted.

I especially like the "no teaching terrain because of the crowds" part.

Let me add that the never-ever lesson is 1.5 hours long. Half the group members (group of 10) show up late because the lines in the rental shop are horrendous. Their boots are not even buckled. It's 5 degrees Farenheit out there, they have no goggles, their necks are uncovered, and they are wearing thin gloves.

These innocents are eager, and they have BIG smiles on their faces. It's our responsibility to not wipe those smiles away.

So True.
You kicked off a memory with your thin gloves point. I once had a lesson with two lovely lady's from NYC who were upstate visiting a relative at Ft Drum and out of the blue, on the way home, they decided to stop in and take a ski lesson. LOL they had on their street socks, NYC long coats and thin gloves. Just had a great time with them and hopefully the feeling was mutual.