Why do most instructors introduce speed control with a braking wedge?

[JESinstr]

Don’t ask me.
we’ve had nearly a whole thread on this. Stemming from that saying “are you turning the skis or letting them turn you?”

Yep and yet the discussion continues...LOL For the record and IMO, muscle induced rotation is deflection. Using the the ski's properties to convert straight line travel into circular travel is turning....it's also my definition of the process of carving.

 

[JESinstr]

Yes, I agree. The wedge provides two ever-present edges. Switch which one dominates and you have a turn. That's one of the major reasons for the preferred use of wedge turns. Slowed travel is another. Ease of doing a straight run to a stop by braking is another.

Learning to switch edges with parallel skis involves a quantum leap since the new edge is not already there. To do that, stem your new outside ski so you return to a wedge for turn entry, or release with flexion or extension (or both together) and continue tipping onto new edge. Do this without twisting the flattened skis to point downhill if you want the feel the "skis turn you" instead of knowing you are turning the skis yourself.

Agree and getting the "switch" to happen is where the J Turn comes in....in an area where there is room. You make great points about the availability of appropriate teaching terrain.

 

[James]

Well early on you can have people go backwards in a V. On gentle terrain, once you get them past the “no way!”, most actually feel safer. (Some still won’t go for it) You can then show how flattening one ski affects travel. Yes, you can do this forward too.
I like backwards early on in general because at some point it’s going to happen to them. If they’ve at least done it before, the freakout may be less.

 

[bud heishman]

I agree with all this. Absolutely true. Teaching a release is best, whether it's an extension release or a flexion release. Teaching a release is best whether it's a release to flat followed immediately by twisting the flattened skis to point downhill, or releasing to flat followed immediately by tipping skis onto new edges so the skis turn themselves.

But Bud, I don't think you realize that turning skis by any means to point downhill from a traverse, aka from a fully completed turn, is more frightening to a never-ever than turning to from a straight run (slowed by a braking wedge) to one side or the other. I know this from much personal experience teaching students both ways. The first involves making a 90 degree turn to a straight run where the skis will head downhill at increasing speed - terrifying at first! The second involves heading downhill in a controlled (by friction) straight run then turning a little to the side, which will slow them down even more. Not threatening at all.

Your side-slip garlands delete the fear factor in turning downhill, but they require garlands. As I've explained before, garlands are impossible on a narrow beginner run, and dangerous on crowded beginner slopes.

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to teach a turn-stop without the presence of excess fear while not using a braking wedge. So getting those early turns to start when the skis are pointing at the trees - without panic as they anticipate what will happen when the skis point downhill - has been my focus over the years. And garlands have not been possible where I have taught.

Your progression uses a garland and a fan progression to achieve this. Sure, that will work, with the right terrain and enough time to deal with students in the group who are having trouble with technical movements unfamiliar to them. But some terrain and limited time makes your progression a no-go.

The terrain available at the thee mountains where I've taught has either been too narrow for garlands, or too crowded for them. That's the point I'm hoping you will recognize as valid. Just that. I don't normally like arguing, by the way, and find it somewhat odd to be arguing with you given your expertise.

Well, I have had had great success with this method... go figure? First it is a better method in my opinion when the terrain is NOT ideal, as steeper terrain is less intimidating to traverse than straight line and the J turn christie into the hill method uses very littler terrain for crowded areas. The amount of terrain used is very minimal for each xtie into the hill, so the speed encountered is minimal at first. The student can literally begin turning as soon as they begin sliding forward if they choose. As confidence increases bigger swaths of terrain can be used. It would be interesting to see how you are presenting this approach to your students? Not sure if I am communicating it clearly without video or diagrams, for which I am very poor at providing. No matter how timid the student is using the fall line straight run to first turns or a traverse across the fall line method, they still need to move and slide with a bit of momentum to make the skis turn. Consequently, we have to minimize their angst before they can learn which ever method you may choose. Thank you for the friendly dialogue, I appreciate you interest.

 

[bud heishman]

xmas === christmas

xtie === christie?

exactly!

 

[LiquidFeet]

Well early on you can have people go backwards in a V. On gentle terrain, once you get them past the “no way!”, most actually feel safer. (Some still won’t go for it) You can then show how flattening one ski affects travel. Yes, you can do this forward too.
I like backwards early on in general because at some point it’s going to happen to them. If they’ve at least done it before, the freakout may be less.

Me too. I'm glad you mentioned this. I love teaching skiers to go backwards then forwards. It doesn't go over so well in first day classes, unless they are British teens. Adult beginners lose trust in me when I ask them to do this. I don't want to waste time trying to recover from the lost trust.

But on day two or three, especially in a private lesson, it's a great teaching tool. Ski backwards in a braking wedge, weight equal on both skis. Bend one leg. Do nothing else. Repeat on both sides over and over, then link turns. Now do it forward; just bend one leg. Do nothing else. Flexion release has just been taught and learned.

 

[bud heishman]

Pick the apple, shoot the basketball into the hoop, reach for a ring all involve releasing the skis by moving the whole upper body downhill over the skis in an incline that's tilted downhill. The release and tipping the skis onto new edges relies on upper body movement, and it works.


This progression for release and flattening of the skis, followed by rotation of the flat skis, uses movements of the feet, the knees, and then the hips, but not the upper body. It works.

There are two major differences. One is whether the upper body or lower body motors the release of the old edges. The other is whether tipping the skis onto new downhill edges or rotating the flat skis motors the turning.

Is one of these initiations better than the other? If the answer is yes, does that apply to every skier at any level, or for particular students? Should skiers know and use both?

Good point here! I believe the "release" toward the new turn begins somewhere after the fall line where angulation increases, not to create more edge angle but rather to allow the CoM to begin moving toward transition. With this in mind the upper body should already be balanced over the downhill ski and to release the edges the skier simply moves the belly button (cg) toward alignment between the NOSE and the TOES (from "<" to "/". If the skier must make a big movement with the upper body to release, they likely were braking at turn completion and/or caught inside (not balanced over outside ski at completion)?

 

[bud heishman]

I would hope that the instructor's job is to teach "skiing". Not just turning.

• Turning (various types)
• Balance while not turning.
• How to stop
• Getting on/off lifts
• How to go uphill (skate, side-step, herringbone, walk in boots, etc)
• Rules of the ski hill (Skier Responsibility Code)
• How to fall
• How to get up from a fall (and put equipment back in order)
• How to go faster, how to go slower
• How to choose which runs/lifts to go on
• How to read the snow/terrain conditions
• How to adjust equipment (hat, helmet, goggles, gloves, etc) to stay warm, dry and comfortable
• Where on the hill are the necessities (Ski Patrol, bathrooms, eat/drink, base lodge, parking lots, etc)

I guess I'll find out when I start instructing this year.

Touche! I guess my essence of skiing is managing my CoM's path down the mountain, linking turns to manage my speed. To me "stopping" doesn't come to mind when I visualize skiing down the mountain, unless there is a sudden danger I guess?

 

[bud heishman]

For the record and IMO, muscle induced rotation is deflection. Using the the ski's properties to convert straight line travel into circular travel is turning....it's also my definition of the process of carving.

Interesting perspective!
I see DIRECTION vs. BRAKING on a spectrum. Linked hockey stops on steep terrain or maybe pivot slips on one end of spectrum (both straight down the fall line), and carved railroad track turns on the other end of the spectrum with any blend of the two in between. That being said the bias determines whether we are turning more than braking or braking more than turning. If the direction the skis are pointed is more than 45 degrees to the skis travel, the skier is braking more than turning, if the angle is less than 45 degrees the skier is turning more than braking. My goal is to keep my skis moving forward as much as possible. Even in a steep chute I try to shape the turn as much as possible to maximize turning and minimize braking. Although that turn will not be carved, with this intent, I will minimize braking using turn shape for speed control rather than edge sets of linked stops.

What is the easiest way to make a wedge turn IYO?
For me it is taking away not adding to the deflection! This can be done by either reducing inside ski's edge angle, or steering angle, or pressure, or a combination of any of these. Why fight to overcome the deflection from the inside ski, when with much less effort, reducing the deflection from the inside ski allows the outside ski to instantly dominate and allows a "passive" shift of pressure to the outside ski? Much like a parallel turn. Now accompany this with an active role for the outside ski with a muscular steering effort (not active weight shift or increased edge angle) and the turns are even easier and become christies very quickly because the mechanics used are the same as a parallel turn. IMO the proper mechanics used in a wedge turn are the training wheels for the parallel turn!

I guess if your students come to you and say "I want to learn to stop" you must appease. OR you could say, "Let's learn to ski" it's much more fun!

 

[bud heishman]

You used this progression in 1979. That's 42 years ago. What were the skis like then? Weren't most teachers still teaching a stem christie to beginners? This progression must have been quite an advancement over teaching a stem to start a turn.

Yes it was far ahead of it's time! Jonathan Jenkins the SS director was a PSIA and CSIA examiner and very sharp. He developed this method for the ski area during the GLM days. We had crowded runs with little to no run out so we had to teach from a traverse to maximize terrain and prevent runaway skiers. Sure they were straight skis but that really doesn't make much difference. PSIA was still using stem christies for cert demos. I always questioned Jonathan about the PSIA progression because it seemed to work great up through the advanced stem christie but the transition from that to parallel made no sense to me. Why were we now teaching totally different turn mechanics?? It wasn't until some years later in the mid to late 80" when PSIA introduced the Centerline concept that the new progression made sense to me. It was a real epiphany! Unfortunately it wasn't communicated very well to the membership and many still haven't grasped the genius of the concept.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Good point here! I believe the "release" toward the new turn begins somewhere after the fall line where angulation increases, not to create more edge angle but rather to allow the CoM to begin moving toward transition. With this in mind the upper body should already be balanced over the downhill ski and to release the edges the skier simply moves the belly button (cg) toward alignment between the NOSE and the TOES (from "<" to "/". If the skier must make a big movement with the upper body to release, they likely were braking at turn completion and/or caught inside (not balanced over outside ski at completion)?

Oh I like this: < to / . This little graphic describes an extension release. Add the "foragonal" part and you've got a new turn starting with the body tall and the skis on new edges above the fall line.

Another way to do a release is for the skier to bring the feet up under the body (by shortening/bending the legs) without any upward extension. Stay low, keep skis tipped and bend legs as needed to bring feet up under the body. As the feet approach, they travel uphill of the CoM and over the skis the body "tumbles," passively.

So that's two ways of releasing. There are more. I am always looking for new ways....

 

[bud heishman]

Oh I like this: < to / . This little graphic describes an extension release. Add the "foragonal" part and you've got a new turn starting with the body tall and the skis on new edges above the fall line.

Another way to do a release is for the skier to bring the feet up under the body (by shortening/bending the legs) without any upward extension. Stay low, keep skis tipped and bend legs as needed to bring feet up under the body. As the feet approach, they travel uphill of the CoM and over the skis the body "tumbles," passively.

So that's two ways of releasing. There are more. I am always looking for new ways....

Right, and wherever you are on the extension/retraction end of the spectrum, keep the skis moving forward and the CoM moving fluidly down the mountain!

 

[JESinstr]

Interesting perspective!
I see DIRECTION vs. BRAKING on a spectrum. Linked hockey stops on steep terrain or maybe pivot slips on one end of spectrum (both straight down the fall line), and carved railroad track turns on the other end of the spectrum with any blend of the two in between. That being said the bias determines whether we are turning more than braking or braking more than turning. If the direction the skis are pointed is more than 45 degrees to the skis travel, the skier is braking more than turning, if the angle is less than 45 degrees the skier is turning more than braking. My goal is to keep my skis moving forward as much as possible. Even in a steep chute I try to shape the turn as much as possible to maximize turning and minimize braking. Although that turn will not be carved, with this intent, I will minimize braking using turn shape for speed control rather than edge sets of linked stops.

100 pct in agreement. I assume when you say "skis moving forward" that is integral to the "Go There" principal. If that be the case, when I am in a challenging situation, it is my "vision" to "Go There" that is a priority and the primary method is to get my skis out and away on edge so the turning properties of the ski can help accomplish said vision. If I can't get to a sufficient edge angle then "Going There" becomes problematic.

What is the easiest way to make a wedge turn IYO?
For me it is taking away not adding to the deflection! This can be done by either reducing inside ski's edge angle, or steering angle, or pressure, or a combination of any of these. Why fight to overcome the deflection from the inside ski, when with much less effort, reducing the deflection from the inside ski allows the outside ski to instantly dominate and allows a "passive" shift of pressure to the outside ski? Much like a parallel turn. Now accompany this with an active role for the outside ski with a muscular steering effort (not active weight shift or increased edge angle) and the turns are even easier and become christies very quickly because the mechanics used are the same as a parallel turn. IMO the proper mechanics used in a wedge turn are the training wheels for the parallel turn!

Again.. 100pct Agreement. As stated in a previous post: It's not about consciously moving to the new ski, its about moving off of the old. It's like a bicycle but in reverse. Instead of pushing down on the pedal, you focus on lifting the opposite pedal.

I guess if your students come to you and say "I want to learn to stop" you must appease. OR you could say, "Let's learn to ski" it's much more fun!

The only stop that I want my first time wedgers to experience is when the slope flattens out.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....The only stop that I want my first time wedgers to experience is when the slope flattens out.

I taught for 8 years at a previous mountain on beginner terrain with no flat run-out anywhere.
I spent too much time trying to avoid teaching them the braking wedge. They needed the assurance they wouldn't run into the rack of skis at the bottom of the beginner first turn area. But they did if their turns failed, and sometimes they did.

Eventually I realized I just had to do it. Even with the braking wedge they sometimes just couldn't get enough edge to stop. I blame the rental shop giving them too-big boots, or bowleggedness.

It should be illegal to have beginner terrain without a flat run-out. This terrain also had skiers moving through it. There was no protected separated first-turn area. That also should be illegal. You'd think the insurance company would notice, but nope.

 

[Seldomski]

I guess if your students come to you and say "I want to learn to stop" you must appease. OR you could say, "Let's learn to ski" it's much more fun!

Well it's not just learning to stop in general, it's specifically:

"I want to be able to do-one-thing-to-stop and feel like I am slowing down *immediately* at really low speeds on very low angle slopes."

Once I had that tool, I felt the parking lot of snow that was the bunny hill was now possible to navigate.

As advanced skier, it's easy to fix. You make some small movements to turn uphill a little bit and you stop moving. You might even speed up a little bit as you adjust to go uphill. No big deal though, your direction change stops you eventually.

As a beginner I remember sometimes wondering, "why am I even moving?" I needed something that worked in that case.

So many questions when you are new to the sport. I think I was an intermediate before I could actually read the fall line on most groomed terrain. And even then it depended on lighting conditions, other skiers being around, etc.

Wedge stops you (on the bunny slopes) and you don't need to read the fall line. Could do it blindfolded even (I've seen people close their eyes when the freak out). When you get to steeper greens, it's less effective, but its also easier to see the fall line, the slope slows you faster, and you can tell which way and how far you need to turn.

 

[bud heishman]

Well it's not just learning to stop in general, it's specifically:

"I want to be able to do-one-thing-to-stop and feel like I am slowing down *immediately* at really low speeds on very low angle slopes."

Once I had that tool, I felt the parking lot of snow that was the bunny hill was now possible to navigate.

As advanced skier, it's easy to fix. You make some small movements to turn uphill a little bit and you stop moving. You might even speed up a little bit as you adjust to go uphill. No big deal though, your direction change stops you eventually.

As a beginner I remember sometimes wondering, "why am I even moving?" I needed something that worked in that case.

So many questions when you are new to the sport. I think I was an intermediate before I could actually read the fall line on most groomed terrain. And even then it depended on lighting conditions, other skiers being around, etc.

Wedge stops you (on the bunny slopes) and you don't need to read the fall line. Could do it blindfolded even (I've seen people close their eyes when the freak out). When you get to steeper greens, it's less effective, but its also easier to see the fall line, the slope slows you faster, and you can tell which way and how far you need to turn.

Are you an intermediate skier now? Are you able to initiate your turns simultaneously or do you have a little sequential edge change? I understand your initial goal and I could accomplish that for you with a J turn across the fall line and practiced that with your many times before I ever put you in a situation where you needed anything more. The first time we would've used a wedge to slow down would be when you where ready for your first lift line experience. I want your first instinct to tell you to turn up the hill to stop or slow rather than brake into a defensive large wedge. They both work, one uses DIRECTION while the other uses FRICTION. Which method is learned first will have notable affects on your skiing progress and plateaus.

 

[bud heishman]

I taught for 8 years at a previous mountain on beginner terrain with no flat run-out anywhere.
I spent too much time trying to avoid teaching them the braking wedge. They needed the assurance they wouldn't run into the rack of skis at the bottom of the beginner first turn area. But they did if their turns failed, and sometimes they did.

Eventually I realized I just had to do it. Even with the braking wedge they sometimes just couldn't get enough edge to stop. I blame the rental shop giving them too-big boots, or bowleggedness.

It should be illegal to have beginner terrain without a flat run-out. This terrain also had skiers moving through it. There was no protected separated first-turn area. That also should be illegal. You'd think the insurance company would notice, but nope.

Actually that is the perfect situation for using J turn method provided you could rope off a protected area where you could prevent other skiers from cutting through your class. Use two rows of students facing each other. Top skier in line on one side does J turn to bottom of other line then does a bull fighter and side steps up in line. Alternate back and forth from line to line doing a rotation. This uses very small hill space and allows you to stand in a central location at top or bottom to give feedback, demonstrate or assist. As they get comfortable you can increase the angle of take off and line separation to give them more room and a bit more speed.

 

[bud heishman]

JESinstr said,
"100 pct in agreement. I assume when you say "skis moving forward" that is integral to the "Go There" principal. If that be the case, when I am in a challenging situation, it is my "vision" to "Go There" that is a priority and the primary method is to get my skis out and away on edge so the turning properties of the ski can help accomplish said vision. If I can't get to a sufficient edge angle then "Going There" becomes problematic."

Exactly JESinstr, you get it!

Once you have grasped the GO intent you realize you don't have to carve every turn. You can back off of a full carve with a bit less edge and a bit more rotary and make a nice round turn with the skis still moving more forward than sideways and accomplish a rounder turn shape with more turning than braking! It is the intent that makes the difference. A PSIA basic parallel turn demo is a GO turn using direction rather than friction for speed control. While some skiers resort to hop turns in tight steep chutes, experts, rather than hop and pivot, move their mass accurately to be able to steer the skis on the snow on a tight round scarved arc, exiting the turn with the skis moving more forward than sideways. The snow is sprayed more out to the side rather than down the fall line as in a hop turn. One is skiing the fast line slow the other is skiing a slow enough line as fast as possible. Every turn doesn't have to be carved like railroad tracks to be a "GO intent" turn but every turn can carry the goal or intent of keeping the skis moving forward more than they are moving sideways.

Using the GO intent the skis leave each turn with more forward momentum making it easier to shape the next turn, cutting through crud, uneven or inconsistent snow with less deflection. Engage, redirect, release, repeat.

Why shouldn't we nurture this GO intent with beginners? I want my students to enjoy every little acceleration knowing they can finish their turn to slow down. That adrenaline rush we all feel with acceleration whether we are in a car, bike, bunjee jumping, diving into a pool, sledding down a hill, sky diving, or just being tossed in the air as a small child is addictive. To never experience this sensation as a skier is to be robbed of the essence of skiing. Teach them to let go of their grip on the earth if even for split seconds at first and show them the security of the "catch" (turn finish). Rather than open into a big wedge to initiate a turn into the fall line (friction, braking, don't go there), teach them to let go of their grip and give into gravity, turning their ski tips down the hill. Once they can embrace the acceleration, their stance will improve and turns will become much easier because they will be standing over the skis' sweet spot. Getting them a taste of the honey will set the hook and keep them coming back for more!

Interesting note JES, as we become more comfortable with the GO intent we are able to hold that intent in increasingly more challenging situations before we switch to the don't go there intent. Knowing that there are times when we need to switch to a braking intent for self preservation, we recognize and accept those situations and return quickly to our offensive GO intent as soon as we are comfortable.

 

[Uncle-A]

One thing I have not read about is that in order to learn to wedge for braking the student needs to have more strength in their legs than needed for turning across hill. When you consider that people today are screen junkies and couch potato, how many are going to have good enough leg strength to deal with the friction method? It is said that there two types of skiers, those that ski to stay in shape, and those that stay in shape to ski. I would think that most of us here in the community are the last type. Those trying to learn a new sport might not be in as good shape as needed, or if they are in reasonable shape, maybe not the same muscles used for skiing and especially the wedge to brake. It may take a little more finesse to turn skis across the hill but it is going to require less leg strength. That is a win for the newer skier that without the leg strength.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Leg strength gives out in a wedge if the skier is in the back seat. If the skier is centered, it doesn't take much strength to stop using a braking wedge from a slow descent on beginner terrain.

However, using a wide wedge while making turns on green and blue terrain is definitely going to wear anybody's legs out. It hurts to traverse in a wide wedge on that terrain. There's an inherent perma-squat required to go across the slope if you hold onto a wide wedge. That supporting leg's thigh is going to burn burn burn.