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Why do most instructors introduce speed control with a braking wedge?

James

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One thing I have not read about is that in order to learn to wedge for braking the student needs to have more strength in their legs than needed for turning across hill. When you consider that people today are screen junkies and couch potato, how many are going to have good enough leg strength to
Just to get to the ski slope you have to walk. So there’s enough strength.

These are beginning skiers.
Second, some of the worst learners ever have been highly muscled guys who did sports like football. They want to use muscle power for everything, when it doesn’t work, they try harder and it gets worse.
Meanwhile, there’s the dainty woman in the group has learned to turn all over the place.

Other impediments seem to be lack of body awareness, and the big one- a huge fear from no friction on their feet.

Dancing, ice skating, rollerblading are all good pre activities for learning. All involve one foot balance. Skating and blading are really good for the friction thing and gliding balanced on one foot.

The only people who can handle constant death wedging on slopes are young kids. They do unfortunately get good at it. Adults will get tired and ache pretty quickly.
 

Uncle-A

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Leg strength gives out in a wedge if the skier is in the back seat. If the skier is centered, it doesn't take much strength to stop using a braking wedge from a slow descent on beginner terrain.

However, using a wide wedge while making turns on green and blue terrain is definitely going to wear anybody's legs out. It hurts to traverse in a wide wedge on that terrain. There's an inherent perma-squat required to go across the slope if you hold onto a wide wedge. That supporting leg's thigh is going to burn burn burn.
I don't know many beginners that are not in the back seat. Staying forward is one of the more difficult things for a beginner because that makes them go faster. That is when the fear and panic take over.
 

Uncle-A

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Just to get to the ski slope you have to walk. So there’s enough strength.

These are beginning skiers.
Second, some of the worst learners ever have been highly muscled guys who did sports like football. They want to use muscle power for everything, when it doesn’t work, they try harder and it gets worse.
Meanwhile, there’s the dainty woman in the group has learned to turn all over the place.

Other impediments seem to be lack of body awareness, and the big one- a huge fear from no friction on their feet.

Dancing, ice skating, rollerblading are all good pre activities for learning. All involve one foot balance. Skating and blading are really good for the friction thing and gliding balanced on one foot.

The only people who can handle constant death wedging on slopes are young kids. They do unfortunately get good at it. Adults will get tired and ache pretty quickly.
The big muscle guys can over power today's shorter skis, they could even over power the long skis of the past. Did they ever become good technical skiers some did, many didn't but they did turn their skis. I was never a big muscle guy and I could over power 200 CM skis back in the day and I did learn using the Snowplow, Stem Christy to Parallel eventually.
 

JESinstr

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Interesting note JES, as we become more comfortable with the GO intent we are able to hold that intent in increasingly more challenging situations before we switch to the don't go there intent. Knowing that there are times when we need to switch to a braking intent for self preservation, we recognize and accept those situations and return quickly to our offensive GO intent as soon as we are comfortable.
Well said.
 

LiquidFeet

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I don't know many beginners that are not in the back seat. Staying forward is one of the more difficult things for a beginner because that makes them go faster. That is when the fear and panic take over.
...because that makes them THINK they will go faster. Weighting the front half of the skis to firmly contact the snow will give the skier more success in getting the skis to turn. And turning across the slope will slow them down to a crawl.

However, staying forward, or centered which feels forward, is indeed very difficult for a beginner skier of any age. And for adults, this stance feels scary. They don't yet trust the fronts of their skis to support them. They worry they will face-plant.
 

Uncle-A

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Just a general question on this topic. Aside from the learning curve I think another aspect is what method of stopping takes the shortest distance? The wedge or the turning across the hill, because sometimes the time and distance it takes to stop is important.
 

HDSkiing

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One is skiing the fast line slow the other is skiing a slow enough line as fast as possible. Every turn doesn't have to be carved like railroad tracks to be a "GO intent" turn but every turn can carry the goal or intent of keeping the skis moving forward more than they are moving sideways.
Love this!

I have been an advocate of "skiing the slow line fast, rather than skiing the fast line slow" since I first heard it in a clinic years back.

As skiers progress, relying on braking to control speed even as they begin to get good at parallel skiing they unfortunately end up skiing defensively all the time. This is where we begin to see Z shaped turns rather than S shaped, or they never "close" their turns relying on an edge set, to slow them, habitually pushing the heels out.

They may navigate moderate groomed just fine, but often get into trouble when powder or if crud is present. Time and time again, when its dumping and the powder is getting deep even on the groomed blues I will see many throwing in the towels after catching edge after edge in the snow as they try to drag those skis, no mater how wide through the turns. Powder and crud require a little more energy in the from of speed or direction, the GO intent mentioned above is often lacking, or more likely just foreign to them.

We do a great job getting NE's to glide to a stop, begin to initiate turns etc., but then after that a "missing link" often appears and they go out with just enough skills to go tackle the next slope, or so they believe. They continue to ski with that constant braking, maybe getting informal often unhelpful tips from friends. Despite their lack of skill, many do gain confidence to try more challenging terrain, often with some success which only reinforces bad habits and technique. A small percentage will return to lessons, and often we have to spend a lot time trying to break the movement patterns they have developed.

To be fair we only have so much time with them that first time, and therein lies the crux of the issue. Fascinating discussion, with some great information!
 

Chris V.

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I don't know many beginners that are not in the back seat. Staying forward is one of the more difficult things for a beginner because that makes them go faster. That is when the fear and panic take over.
Most important as the very first thing to work on. Just going straight. "Move with the skis."
 

LiquidFeet

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....
As skiers progress, relying on braking to control speed even as they begin to get good at parallel skiing they unfortunately end up skiing defensively all the time. This is where we begin to see Z shaped turns rather than S shaped, or they never "close" their turns relying on an edge set, to slow them, habitually pushing the heels out.

They may navigate moderate groomed just fine, but often get into trouble when powder or if crud is present. Time and time again, when its dumping and the powder is getting deep even on the groomed blues I will see many throwing in the towels after catching edge after edge in the snow as they try to drag those skis, no mater how wide through the turns. Powder and crud require a little more energy in the from of speed or direction, the GO intent mentioned above is often lacking, or more likely just foreign to them.

We do a great job getting NE's to glide to a stop, begin to initiate turns etc., but then after that a "missing link" often appears and they go out with just enough skills to go tackle the next slope, or so they believe. They continue to ski with that constant braking, maybe getting informal often unhelpful tips from friends. Despite their lack of skill, many do gain confidence to try more challenging terrain, often with some success which only reinforces bad habits and technique. A small percentage will return to lessons, and often we have to spend a lot time trying to break the movement patterns they have developed.

To be fair we only have so much time with them that first time, and therein lies the crux of the issue. Fascinating discussion, with some great information!
Such a good description of what almost always happens in real life.

I do think teaching beginners to flex/bend the new inside leg to release the old turn and start the new one will help prohibit them from ending up with those Z-turns as soon as they take their newly learned skills onto blue terrain. It's hard to morph flexion turns into quick-pivot-heel-push turns because the body stays low. In contrast, standing tall to do an extension-release on terrain that feels steep morphs seamlessly into a quick-pivot and heel-push unless there's guidance from a watchful instructor.
 

LiquidFeet

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Just a general question on this topic. Aside from the learning curve I think another aspect is what method of stopping takes the shortest distance? The wedge or the turning across the hill, because sometimes the time and distance it takes to stop is important.
Turn-stops take up less downhill distance, but more across the slope distance. Beginners can work on shortening the across-the-slope distance after the short lesson is over, or during it if it's an all day lesson.

A straight run in a wedge can take f-o-r-e-v-e-r, even on the beginner slope, if the skier has built up any momentum. One of our instructors would demonstrate to his beginners how long a braking wedge took before they did their first run. He'd take off in a straight run in a gliding wedge, point one pole high up in the air and go into a braking wedge until the wedge stopped him. They could identify him by that pole in the air if the slope was crowded. It did take quite a bit of distance. Then he'd sidestep back up and tell them they would be turning to a stop instead for the rest of the lesson because the braking wedge involved too much distance.
 
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bud heishman

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Most important as the very first thing to work on. Just going straight. "Move with the skis."
Would you consider going straight, across the slope could be less intimidating and teach good body position at the same time?
 

Seldomski

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Are you an intermediate skier now? Are you able to initiate your turns simultaneously or do you have a little sequential edge change? I understand your initial goal and I could accomplish that for you with a J turn across the fall line and practiced that with your many times before I ever put you in a situation where you needed anything more. The first time we would've used a wedge to slow down would be when you where ready for your first lift line experience. I want your first instinct to tell you to turn up the hill to stop or slow rather than brake into a defensive large wedge. They both work, one uses DIRECTION while the other uses FRICTION. Which method is learned first will have notable affects on your skiing progress and plateaus.
I'm not a beginner and not an instructor. Just a student of the sport playing devils advocate for the wedge/snow plow. I have accumulated a lot of bad habits along the way and am trying to ski better. The wedge may be at fault for some of these bad habits, but I think my own mentality is the root cause of most problems. I am able to take things instructors say, and completely misunderstand it for years and continue practicing the wrong way. I look back on notes and it's basically the same words every time...

Why am I a reluctant fan of the wedge? Well, I am not sure if I would have continued past the first few days of skiing without the "wedge crutch." My expectation when I started skiing was to take a couple days of lessons and be on my way skiing beginner stuff, no problem. At worst I'd be independently skiing the afternoon of day 2. I didn't quite hit these goals, but I did feel like I could get around a little bit on day 3. I'd be curious to see if there are any stats on 'never-ever skiers' regarding expectations.

How many hours/days of group lessons do they think are needed to:
get off the bunny hill?
ski a green?
ski a blue?
I wonder what the spread is in expectation vs. reality.

For PADI cert, they are pretty clear about what is needed to scuba. I think something like that for skiing would be good, but there wouldn't be any real teeth to enforce it. In scuba, you have to have the cert to do open water dives and there is a whole system setup to make sure certs are current and verified, etc. It's just not safe otherwise and scuba for tourists would not work.
 
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bud heishman

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It's great you are here and a student of the sport! I would say without seeing you ski, just grasping the idea of having a GO intent rather than a braking intent, you will find your way to better skiing. For some it comes as an epiphany to others it takes time to change your intent to turn. Learn to "ski the slow line fast"!
 

Chris V.

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Would you consider going straight, across the slope could be less intimidating and teach good body position at the same time?
Ah, like with so many things, "it depends." If the student points them down an extremely gentle, short slope with a flat or return pipe runout, very little intimidation. Beyond that, going cross-slope is necessary for keeping the speed very low. The thing about traversing is that it requires a degree of foot tipping and upper body lateral balancing, an added skill that some students may have difficulty taking on all at once. For that reason, I like doing things in the above order. We're talking extremely elementary, baby steps. But it's been my experience that I've seen many students in beginner lessons going on to attempting to link turns without having mastered those baby steps, and that leads to a lot of unhappiness.
 
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bud heishman

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Ah, like with so many things, "it depends." If the student points them down an extremely gentle, short slope with a flat or return pipe runout, very little intimidation. Beyond that, going cross-slope is necessary for keeping the speed very low. The thing about traversing is that it requires a degree of foot tipping and upper body lateral balancing, an added skill that some students may have difficulty taking on all at once. For that reason, I like doing things in the above order. We're talking extremely elementary, baby steps. But it's been my experience that I've seen many students in beginner lessons going on to attempting to link turns without having mastered those baby steps, and that leads to a lot of unhappiness.
One of he steps to using the J turn progression is to teach side stepping. Proper side stepping mechanics require they learn/be taught proper body position and edging skills of the lower legs, weight directed to the down hill ski. As they practice J turns they will be side stepping back up the hill to J turn in the other direction, anchoring the side stepping skills with guidance from their coach. Then as they practice J turns, the skills learned from sidestepping will aid the J turn success. Note too that the simple task of balancing in a proper body position (nose over the toes of downhill ski) and the slope angle actually create ample edge angle for the task without additional angulation. Teach them to side step properly and they will have all the edge angle they need.

One of the first things I teach once I have them stepped up the hill a bit so they are balanced over their uphill edges on a bit of a slope. Then have them practice lifting uphill ski, first using poles for balance, then lifting poles to see how long they can balance on downhill ski. Guidance is given to find fore/aft balance, and proper body position. All this before they try their first J turn, which they begin in a proper body position.
 
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4ster

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I was fortunate to spend most of my teaching career at areas with flat enough beginner terrain that we were able to teach mainly in the fall-line & still focus on a GO intent.
Most important as the very first thing to work on. Just going straight. "Move with the skis."
^This was the key to success & many instructors didn't get it. They were in such a hurry to get their students wedging that they would end up with a bracing, braking wedge. I would always emphasize that extra time spent in the straight run on flat terrain would result in less time in a wedge later & an earlier ability to use direction/turning for speed control. Long straight runs with a counter slope were ideal or so flat that that students would need to propel themselves with their poles.

Of course as Bud has mentioned the Centerline Concept would often come into play as to how or what you would teach. For instance during a rain/freeze cycle the snow surface could get so slick that we would switch to teaching across the hill & more of a J-turn approach.

To me the gliding wedge has always just been a phase that we pass through or a “Stepping Stone” on the way to parallel. When used properly the same movements & skills are learned in a gliding wedge turn as basic parallel & nothing needs to be unlearned. I consider the braking wedge an emergency tool that some may depend on more than others. The less time spent with either, the better. Developing turn shape should be the emphasis of any approach.

This is an interesting thread with some great ideas and variations.

YMMV
:crash:
 
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bud heishman

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I was fortunate to spend most of my teaching career at areas with flat enough beginner terrain that we were able to teach mainly in the fall-line & still focus on a GO intent.

^This was the key to success & many instructors didn't get it. They were in such a hurry to get their students wedging that they would end up with a bracing, braking wedge. I would always emphasize that extra time spent in the straight run on flat terrain would result in less time in a wedge later & an earlier ability to use direction/turning for speed control. Long straight runs with a counter slope were ideal or so flat that that students would need to propel themselves with their poles.

Of course as Bud has mentioned the Centerline Concept would often come into play as to how or what you would teach. For instance during a rain/freeze cycle the snow surface could get so slick that we would switch to teaching across the hill & more of a J-turn approach.

To me the gliding wedge has always just been a phase that we pass through or a “Stepping Stone” on the way to parallel. When used properly the same movements & skills are learned in a gliding wedge turn as basic parallel & nothing needs to be unlearned. I consider the braking wedge an emergency tool that some may depend on more than others. The less time spent with either, the better. Developing turn shape should be the emphasis of any approach.

This is an interesting thread with some great ideas and variations.

YMMV
:crash:
Agreed! The big new sensation for most people's first time on skis is the unstable slippery feeling of gliding on snow. This friction less platform is unnerving and causes instant anxiety. This is why people who come to skiing with past experience of sledding, ice skating, roller skating, roller blading, even riding a bike, all offer some familiarity with standing stationary and having the ground move under you. As Jim stated, ideally spending time where the first timers could just slide for 100yds without picking up speed or needing to brake would be ideal. This would help lessen the anxiety of turning the skis into the fall line too. I spend time emphasizing the FUN part of the turn is the acceleration of turning into the fall line. If they can embrace the joy of accelerating without anxiety, the rest is easy!
 

JESinstr

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Agreed! The big new sensation for most people's first time on skis is the unstable slippery feeling of gliding on snow. This friction less platform is unnerving and causes instant anxiety. This is why people who come to skiing with past experience of sledding, ice skating, roller skating, roller blading, even riding a bike, all offer some familiarity with standing stationary and having the ground move under you. As Jim stated, ideally spending time where the first timers could just slide for 100yds without picking up speed or needing to brake would be ideal. This would help lessen the anxiety of turning the skis into the fall line too. I spend time emphasizing the FUN part of the turn is the acceleration of turning into the fall line. If they can embrace the joy of accelerating without anxiety, the rest is easy!
Boy, I (and I assume many others) would kill to have a 100 yard minimal slope teaching area! Especially on weekends and holidays which is when the customers show up! And if I had such an area, I would agree with any progression that utilizes that kind of terrain.

IMO in the end, the validity of the opinions expressed in this thread so far are highly contingent on degree of slope, distance and speed. If the skier is moving down a slope, their COM (properly managed by the flex complex- ankles, knees and hips), needs to be forward of the gravitational axis and centered through the arch. To me this is what has to happen in order to be "moving with the skis".

But if the slope is too steep, distance too short and speed too fast what happens? Well, the beginner's brain senses stationary/platform imbalance (remember there is no locomotion going on in skiing) and in order to remain upright, the body reflexively extends vertically to be inline with the Gravitational Axis which (because the skier is on a slope) puts them on their heels in a prelude to a straight run fall or into a braking/bracing movement pattern if in a wedge.

So like the non-intuitive truth that we initiate turning balance on the inside edge of the new outside ski by softening/shortening the new inside leg, so too we need to teach the non-intuitive truth that skiing requires a new and different way to dynamically balance using dorsi flexion and a center foot focus vs plantar flexion and heel/toe focus.

My point is that although every area has its own beginner area topography and situational issues, the above two critical skill sets can be accomplished on a variety of terrains using both wedge and j-turn progressions in various combinations.
 
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bud heishman

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Boy, I (and I assume many others) would kill to have a 100 yard minimal slope teaching area! Especially on weekends and holidays which is when the customers show up! And if I had such an area, I would agree with any progression that utilizes that kind of terrain.

IMO in the end, the validity of the opinions expressed in this thread so far are highly contingent on degree of slope, distance and speed. If the skier is moving down a slope, their COM (properly managed by the flex complex- ankles, knees and hips), needs to be forward of the gravitational axis and centered through the arch. To me this is what has to happen in order to be "moving with the skis".

But if the slope is too steep, distance too short and speed too fast what happens? Well, the beginner's brain senses stationary/platform imbalance (remember there is no locomotion going on in skiing) and in order to remain upright, the body reflexively extends vertically to be inline with the Gravitational Axis which (because the skier is on a slope) puts them on their heels in a prelude to a straight run fall or into a braking/bracing movement pattern if in a wedge.

So like the non-intuitive truth that we initiate turning balance on the inside edge of the new outside ski by softening/shortening the new inside leg, so too we need to teach the non-intuitive truth that skiing requires a new and different way to dynamically balance using dorsi flexion and a center foot focus vs plantar flexion and heel/toe focus.

My point is that although every area has its own beginner area topography and situational issues, the above two critical skill sets can be accomplished on a variety of terrains using both wedge and j-turn progressions in various combinations.
YES YES YES! BRAVO Perhaps we shouldn't encourage beginners to "squish the bug" or "put out the cigarette" with the ball of their foot? Maybe we should encourage pulling their shins into the boot tongues by dorsi flexing their ankles?....
 

Uncle-A

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YES YES YES! BRAVO Perhaps we shouldn't encourage beginners to "squish the bug" or "put out the cigarette" with the ball of their foot? Maybe we should encourage pulling their shins into the boot tongues by dorsi flexing their ankles?....
I am not sure that using terms like "dorsi flexing their ankles" is one that many beginners would understand. The terms like "squishing the bug"or "putting out the cigarette" are easier for the beginners to understand stand. Communicating in terms the average person is going to understand and put into action is as important as getting the physical activity mastered. One of the things I do remember from lessons I had was " putting out the cigarette" and that was at least 50 years ago. That was one of the light switch moments that helped get past a plateau, maybe that is why I remember it so clear as day.
 

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