Will ski boots designed with toes splaying (ie spreading toes) something that will catch on in ski boot design? It has with running shoes...

[MikeHunt]

There has been a revolution in the recent decade with companies like Altra getting a cult following with shoes that are wide toe box.

Altra has made the wide toe box and zero drop (a term for the front and back sole having the same height) their point of diffrentiation from behemoths like Nike and Adidas and all the other niche shoe like Cloud On and Hoka, etc.

For many people, the fact that they can spread their toes has solved many of their anatomical issues with foot and knee and back pain. The natural, back to nature norm, these people and Altra argue, is to walk and run with toes spread out. Something not possible with modern shoe design until Altra popularised it. Although the performance benefits are questionable given the top marathoners and track and fielders still use normal narrow toebox shoes.

Given that skiing doesn't have quite the 200,000 year history compared to human running and walking, is toes spreading/splaying an anatomical habit that could have some kind of positive impact on skiing? Or could spreading out your toes when skiing have a negative impact from a performance and injury perspective?

I think it's quite apparent that narrower is the way to go with ski boots as far a performance goes, given that the top racers want their boots tighter. But for the normal, 1 week a year skier, will they benefit from a ski boots designed that's, say, snug at the heel and instep, but let's them spread out their toes?

 

[markojp]

IMHO, there's no need for constricted toes even in a race boot. Of late, many race boots have more generous toe boxes than in the past. There's also a ton of extra plastic in some of the best skiing boots out there, so grinding and punching to make toe space isn't a bit deal.

 

[dovski]

So I actually had corrective surgery on my left foot to address my splay foot (bunion and tailors bunion), lets just say I do not recommend this procedure to anyone unless they desperately need it as the recovery is long and arduous. My right foot has the same issue, lucky me I have a matching pair, but I have opted to go with custom foot beds and wider toe boxes on all my footwear. While Altra may fit better out of the box, I am not sure the shoe alone without any mods will do anything to prevent the condition from worsening. Currently I buy extra wide shows and stretch them in key areas so as not to aggravate my foot and to accommodate my foot beds which take up a lot of volume. Ski boots have never been an issue for me since I always get them custom fit, which includes punching out the to box so as to accommodate the shape of my foot. With custom shell boots this becomes even less of an issue as in theory the boot will form to the shape of your foot, though I still need a punch or two right around the big and little toe knuckles. Bottom line is that if you have a proper boot fitter fit you in a boot, part of that process will be to make the necessary modifications to the boot to ensure proper bio-mechanics. You can go through the same process for running shoes at a good running store or with a podiatrist, though I think most people do not bother. Custom foot beds are also important to ensuring proper fit and addressing foot issues. With ski boots I find you are best going to an actual boot fitter for these as opposed to a podiatrist as most podiatrist build their foot beds to address walking and running issues, the few foot beds my podiatrist build me for my ski boots had issues and ultimately did not work well. Bottom line is that I now put a lot of time and effort into ensuring what I put on my feet is comfortable and ensure proper bio-mechanics, I wish I had been doing this in my early teens as it would have likely prevented my current foot issues altogether.

 

[François Pugh]

Great idea for skiers with wide toes, except for those who want high performance quick edge to edge action with high tipping angles. I see a problem for racers and other hard snow high performance turn skiers, boot out with skinny skis.

 

[Philpug]

Paging @onenerdykid to the SkiTalk Courtesy Phone

 

[Philpug]

To an extent we are seeing this being addressed. We have seen a recent trend in ski boots to have a more generous toe box even into the performance boot range. This along the line of seeing prominent bulges for the nevicular, another common area that needs addressing a lot. The wheels of boot design moves slowly, but does move.

 

[James]

McPhail talked about this some years ago. I don’t see much reason either for compressed toes. I suspect it’s just a racer thing, intransigence in design, the Italian hold on boot design, and no actual good reason for it. I think it causes more problems then it’s alleged advantages.

We shall see. Frankly, I would see it as a more of a victory for common sense rather than some revolution.
Is it really “splay” when it’s just not highly compressed?

 

[neonorchid]

begins @t 1:11:30

1:12:13 > specifically addresses the question

 

[markojp]

Great idea for skiers with wide toes, except for those who want high performance quick edge to edge action with high tipping angles. I see a problem for racers and other hard snow high performance turn skiers, boot out with skinny skis.

I guess all the Head athletes in the new WCR's better hand back all their globes and hardware, eh?

 

[Scruffy]

McPhail talked about this some years ago. I don’t see much reason either for compressed toes. I suspect it’s just a racer thing, intransigence in design, the Italian hold on boot design, and no actual good reason for it. I think it causes more problems then it’s alleged advantages.

We shall see. Frankly, I would see it as a more of a victory for common sense rather than some revolution.
Is it really “splay” when it’s just not highly compressed?

Yeah, David McPhail was on to this in the 80's. One of his boot modifications to Steve Podorski's * boot was the wider toe box that allowed his metatarsals to work as the human foot had evolved to work within the confines of the ski boot, which allows for other things to happed up the chain...yada yada yada... TL DR that's what most people's take away to McPhail was, and that's why he wrapped up shop and went away. Great thinkers are always misunderstood, until the world comes around to them.

*( Steve Podorski was a WC downhiller from Canada for those that don't know )

 

[DanoT]

To an extent we are seeing this being addressed. We have seen a recent trend in ski boots to have a more generous toe box even into the performance boot range. This along the line of seeing prominent bulges for the nevicular, another common area that needs addressing a lot. The wheels of boot design moves slowly, but does move.

While It was Fischer I believe that came out with the first heat mold-able plastic shell, they were something like a decade behind heat mold-able hockey skates.

 

[MikeHunt]

I'm still not sure about the performance and injury impact of toe splay in skiing.

With running, jumping, and even walking, splaying makes sense as the body is trying to distribute the load of the whole body into a wide area as possible. In the human foot, that would be the ball absorbing the brunt of the force and the toes acting as additional shock absorbers to the ball. Though I understand that some people prefer a heel strike to cushion the impact and the injury implications of this is mixed depending on who you talk to.

So it makes sense to make shoes wider to let the foot ball and toes spread out as much as they can to be able to absorb the impact.

In skiing, there isn't much weight bearing on the ball and toes as the majority of the act of skiing is sliding down the mountain (unless one is doing park jumps) where the body is shifted side to side, thus utilising the side areas of the foot. The brunt of the force is in the joint of the 1st and 5th metatarsal and and the flesh the runs along side the foot as when one is carving.

Maybe splaying can utilise the whole chain of smaller muscles that run from foot to leg compared to toes that can only wiggle.

Some days, I really like my tight fitting boots for the force transmission and feedback. Some days, I hate them. Maybe it's just a shift in thinking that is needed on those days that I hate them in the sense that I should change my thinking on how the foot works when skiing (think side to side utilisation of foot) compared to what I'm used to in day to day sports and activities (ball and toes bearing the impact).

 

[markojp]

To clarify, the 'toe box room' I was thinking about was in regards to the phalanges.

 

[newboots]

Slightly off topic -

I wear Altra sneakers and Keen boots almost exclusively. Not for better running, but because of the shape of my feet (wide at the ball and toes). It has become more difficult to find “wide” shoes, and even then, my feet are narrow in the heels, a shape that my bootfitter says is the most common for women’s feet. (F*** you, pointy-toed pumps!)

I can spend a day in shoes now without my feet hurting. Finally. I’ve been waiting for this since the 70s.

 

[DanoT]

I also wear Keen running shoes for their width, although the latest ones that I ordered online are not as wide as previous Keen shoes resulting in me getting numb feet unless I wear a super thin sock.

With ski boots, in the past in order to get a wide, high volume boot in a 130flex I would get a size too big and also get the shell punched. As long as I had good heel hold down I was not concerned about an extra 1/4" in front of my toe.

Enter the Head Avant-Edge 125 and I finally have a reasonably stiff boot in a wide fit. I was able to buy the correct length boot that properly fit my foot volume and length; still had to get the shell punched at the small toe, though. Other manufacturers are also now making stiff boots for wide, high volume feet.

 

[Uncle-A]

I have used New Balance running shoes for decades because they make a 4E width and have a large rounded toe box. The size 10 4E in the 900 series running shoes fit me like they are custom made for my feet. I have often wished that New Balance made ski boots as well as running shoes. I think a ski boot with a larger toe box is a great idea, as long as the boot holds the rest of the foot correctly.

 

[Andy Mink]

My Fischer Curv RC4 boots have a much more generous toe box than my Raptors. I don't notice that having room to wiggle my toes is a bad thing. The Raptors were punched to provide enough room to be comfortable, the Fischers give me room to move my toes laterally and up and down. Why not? Assuming the boot fits well and your ankle and heel are locked in it is much more comfortable to move the toes.

 

[James]

Great thinkers are always misunderstood, until the world comes around to them.

Well, he had his issues and that site was a mess. The equivalent of papers stacked in piles all over a room.
But no one seems to be willing to run experiments. When he did the Birdcage experiment, the skier was connected to a data cord trailing behind.
I tend to think that if skiing were football, either one, the money involved might lead to research and answers. But maybe not.

 

[Saintsman]

I also wear Keen running shoes for their width, although the latest ones that I ordered online are not as wide as previous Keen shoes resulting in me getting numb feet unless I wear a super thin sock.

With ski boots, in the past in order to get a wide, high volume boot in a 130flex I would get a size too big and also get the shell punched. As long as I had good heel hold down I was not concerned about an extra 1/4" in front of my toe.

Enter the Head Avant-Edge 125 and I finally have a reasonably stiff boot in a wide fit. I was able to buy the correct length boot that properly fit my foot volume and length; still had to get the shell punched at the small toe, though. Other manufacturers are also now making stiff boots for wide, high volume feet.

Sounds like your feet are almost identical to mine. Same boot, same punch for the small toe

 

[pchewn]

Yeah, David McPhail was on to this in the 80's. One of his boot modifications to Steve Podorski's * boot was the wider toe box that allowed his metatarsals to work as the human foot had evolved to work within the confines of the ski boot, which allows for other things to happed up the chain...yada yada yada... TL DR that's what most people's take away to McPhail was, and that's why he wrapped up shop and went away. Great thinkers are always misunderstood, until the world comes around to them.

Was he really claiming that there were enough human-years of skiing in confined ski boots for evolution to work its magic on the shape of feet?