Will ski boots designed with toes splaying (ie spreading toes) something that will catch on in ski boot design? It has with running shoes...

[markojp]

The only issue is if the toes are too constricted, they can’t really relax.

Absolutely. Fortunately with the right tools, it's not terribly difficult to re-shape a toe box to match a foot. If I saved all the plastic I've ground out of Lange toe boxes, I'd have a nice little pile with a pony in there somewhere. Same with Head Raptor series boots.

 

[neonorchid]

Absolutely. Fortunately with the right tools, it's not terribly difficult to re-shape a toe box to match a foot. If I saved all the plastic I've ground out of Lange toe boxes, I'd have a nice little pile with a pony in there somewhere. Same with Head Raptor series boots.

Thats not entirely true, it usually works for those needing room for bunions but not so well to not at all when the needed width is at the sides and ends of the big and little toes as could be the case with those who are natural fits for the toe shape of Topo Athletic, Merrell Barefoot and Altra running shoes.

 

[markojp]

Thats not entirely true, it usually works for those needing room for bunions but not so well to not at all when the needed width is at the sides and ends of the big and little toes as could be the case with those who are natural fits for the toe shape of Topo Athletic, Merrell Barefoot and Altra running shoes.

Well, if I can do it regularly for customers and clients, in my experience, it's true.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Do

Well, if I can do it regularly for customers and clients, in my experience, it's true.

I'm curious.
What tool do you use to punch the toe box so it's wider? Would you post a picture of it?

 

[markojp]

I'm curious.
What tool do you use to punch the toe box so it's wider? Would you post a picture of it?

Depends on the boot and plastic really. There are a few different ways to go about it.

 

[neonorchid]

Well, if I can do it regularly for customers and clients, in my experience, it's true.

Ah ha ... You haven't had me as a customer

 

[LiquidFeet]

Depends on the boot and plastic really. There are a few different ways to go about it.

My bootfitter told me he had to make a tool to widen the toe box in my boots without dropping the ceiling at the same time. I'm thinking that not every bootfitter would be willing or able to make a tool for this, but "making a tool" might mean something different from what I'm imagining.

 

[markojp]

Ah ha ... You haven't had me as a customer

If you work on boots, you'll know what can and can't be done. If someone insists it can't be done, then they're most likely not going to find someone who can do the work needed. If someone wants a performance fit, the rule of thumb is, fit the small foot, make room for the larger one. Your choice. No fake news or noth'in.

 

[markojp]

My bootfitter told me he had to make a tool to widen the toe box in my boots without dropping the ceiling at the same time. I'm thinking that not every bootfitter would be willing or able to make a tool for this, but "making a tool" might mean something different from what I'm imagining.

One can make tools for modifying boots just like sculptors might make their own chisels, etc.... There are also plenty of 'store bought' options out there, and sometmes store bought tools get modified.

 

[François Pugh]

I'm curious.
What tool do you use to punch the toe box so it's wider? Would you post a picture of it?

Here you go https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016...ice-used-against-women-accused-of-witchcraft/
Easily modified.

 

[neonorchid]

If you work on boots, you'll know what can and can't be done. If someone insists it can't be done, then they're most likely not going to find someone who can do the work needed. If someone wants a performance fit, the rule of thumb is, fit the small foot, make room for the larger one. Your choice. No fake news or noth'in.

I hear what you are saying but "what can and can't be done", is exactly my point.

For my foot, I'd rather start with a boot that has a toe box shape more like the Hoji I pictured in post #48 which doesn't needlessly and uncomfortably compress and squeeze my toes as the pointy toed boot norm would, then have someone try to bump and grind the room I need from a pointy tight toe box boot. Also more viable to get the extra room from a shape that is already more anatomically correct for my foot shape. More and more with thinner lighter boots the limit to what can and should be done becomes a moving target.
How good are your tools, how good are you at modifying and making your own tools, how much of an engineer - artist are you to understand and visualize, I can only imagine there is no standard for that.

Fwiw, My experience to date has proved me correct more than not.

 

[François Pugh]

I have to add, watching this thread develop, that while I maintain there is a performance limit as to how wide a ski boot can be, there is no reason ski boots need to become narrower forward of their widest point (usually near the ball of foot). Ski boots do not need pointy toes; a ski boot is not a cowboy boot trying to find a stirrup.

 

[markojp]

I hear what you are saying but "what can and can't be done", is exactly my point.

For my foot, I'd rather start with a boot that has a toe box shape more like the Hoji I pictured in post #48 which doesn't needlessly and uncomfortably compress and squeeze my toes as the pointy toed boot norm would, then have someone try to bump and grind the room I need from a pointy tight toe box boot. Also more viable to get the extra room from a shape that is already more anatomically correct for my foot shape. More and more with thinner lighter boots the limit to what can and should be done becomes a moving target.
How good are your tools, how good are you at modifying and making your own tools, how much of an engineer - artist are you to understand and visualize, I can only imagine there is no standard for that.

Fwiw, My experience to date has proved me correct more than not.


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FWIW, we reshaped the front end and instep an XMax boot today. Customer had a very square foot. We've got the tools and people who are pretty good with them, so the customer's boot now looks very much like his foot. Wasn't the boot I would have sold him, but we made it work quite well.

 

[VickieH]

Here you go https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016...ice-used-against-women-accused-of-witchcraft/
Easily modified.

Ah, good point ... they had torture devices; we have ski boots.

 

[neonorchid]

For my foot it comes down to the following illustrations. Having tried both boots, I can say nobody is going to get my foot to work in the Scarpa T2 and I don't think any boot fitter would ever put me in it (Masterfit trained boot fitter said no way to changing T2 toe shape to fit my foot, as if I actually needed the confirmation but the guy was there, the boots were new in box on clearance, and we both had the time to kill).

Personally I'd like to see more Alpine and AT Backcountry ski boots come to market with more anatomically shaped toe boxes such as Hoji and a few others are finally doing. (not to take the OP's post title so literally as to want the type and reason for the type of toe splay Altra running shoes are designed for) -

 

[markojp]

Whoa... you're talking about teley boots? I missed that. Widening telemark boot bellows? Isnt something I've messed with, but I'd love to experiment on on old shell. I was talking about alpine boots, but lengthening the end of the boot for a long toe with pebax plastic is doable as would making some changes ahead of the bellows.... I've made big toe room in my Crispi Evo NTN WC's. All that said, a symmetrical bellow T2 dates back to the late 1990's. I'm not so sure about the integrity of pebax (or much of any plastic) that old and wouldn't really want to work on them unless it was just for fun and messing around. For the shop and money, no. The old symmetrical Scarpa bellows were toe crushers. Honestly, would you buy a 1999 alpine boot for even $10? I wouldn't.

 

[neonorchid]

Whoa... you're talking about teley boots? I missed that. Widening telemark boot bellows? Isnt something I've messed with, but I'd love to experiment on on old shell. I was talking about alpine boots, but lengthening the end of the boot for a long toe with pebax plastic is doable as would making some changes ahead of the bellows.... I've made big toe room in my Crispi Evo NTN WC's. All that said, a symmetrical bellow T2 dates back to the late 1990's. I'm not so sure about the integrity of pebax (or much of any plastic) that old and wouldn't really want to work on them unless it was just for fun and messing around. For the shop and money, no. The old symmetrical Scarpa bellows were toe crushers. Honestly, would you buy a 1999 alpine boot for even $10? I wouldn't.

No, only used the Scarpa T4 (T2 was a typo), boot photo as an example because it's "symmetrically pointy" toe shape, the area from the very front of the boot to the bellows of the eons old T4 boot design which is currently still in production, is a visibly clear example (albeit an externe example), of what in any type of ski boot, Alpine, AT, or Teley, is to my foot a toe shape from hell.
I didn't have a problem with the bellows area being not wide enough or pressing down on the top of my foot. Again my issue was further forward of the bellows area at the rocket nose cone shape front of the boot, a bit of a stretch for any boot fitter to change that type of toe shape to the toe shape of a Dynafit Hoji boot, (pun intended).

 

[onenerdykid]

Personally I'd like to see more Alpine and AT Backcountry ski boots come to market with more anatomically shaped toe boxes such as Hoji and a few others are finally doing. (not to take the OP's post title so literally as to want the type and reason for the type of toe splay Altra running shoes are designed for)

You're definitely right that a well designed toe box shouldn't look like that T2 (which looks so incredibly uncomfortable ugh) but there are a couple of points to take into consideration about this:

• The external shape of a boot does not necessary mirror the internal shape. There are boots that look fairly symmetrical on the outside, but the last is very anatomically shaped on the inside. Conversely, there are boots that look anatomic on the outside but are faking it and the last on the inside is doing something different (there are plenty of boots that exaggerate a navicular bump or big toe in the mold, but the last isn't nearly doing the same thing). So, just because you see something on the outside it does not necessarily mean it's happening 1:1 on the inside.
• There are limits to how much big toe shape a brand can bring to the external mold shape of the boot because the alpine & touring norms have very specific dimensions/limitations to this area of the boot for binding compatibility purposes. A brand could never get ISO 5355 or 9523 certification if the boot had a pronounced big toe punch to it (the Hoji boot with the speed nose doesn't have any ISO certification). This comes back around to the first part of my first bullet point.

 

[markojp]

Onenerdy brings up some excellent points. To clarify some of my earlier comments, making more length starts with the soft materials first (liners, properly trimmed and beveled footbeds), then generally (but with notable exceptions) grinding, then finally punching, the amount of which can be done is also dependent on the binding. Yes, it takes patience and care to deal with binding clearances, there are limits, and one has to be careful not to warp the boot sole, but that's also dependent on the plastics and particular tools used.

 

[neonorchid]