WOMEN’S World Cup 2021-2022

[4ster]

It's surprising that the race was allowed given the snow conditions.

JR’s & Masters ski in worse conditions regularly .
(just sayin’)

 

[Average Joe]

JR’s & Masters ski in worse conditions regularly .
(just sayin’)

Yes, far worse conditions!
But, this is World Cup.
Anyone know why they cancelled the men? I got no streaming.

 

[Primoz]

+13c on course with some rain forecasted in next few hours. But cold front is closing on real fast, so we will see what will really happen. And race is not cancelled just yet. It was cancelled but now it's not anymore.

 

[skifastDDS]

There is so little snow in Zagreb right now that, according to the broadcaster yesterday, some of the gate bases were drilled and set into solid earth.

Pretty incredible that this is WC and not a J5 race in Tennessee.

 

[James]

One of the reasons that the rule is confusing is that it is written in a way that is confusing.
The relevant SL single pole rule "Where there is no outside pole, both feet and ski tips must have passed the turning pole on the same side, following the normal race line of the SL crossing the imaginary line from turning pole to turning pole" could certainly be written more clearly: it can be interpreted differently depending how one reads the sentence. The first part is pretty clear, you have to keep both feet on the outside of the gate. But how does that jibe with "following the normal race line of the SL crossing the imaginary line..." ?
When a racer misses a gate and hikes and chooses to clear a gate in single pole SL by going around, you are both "crossing the imaginary line" with your feet and, your ski tips having "passed the turning pole on the same side," you satisfy the rule, in a somewhat reverse order.
So as written the rule seems to cover all situations, but it's not easily apparent.
I don't know what language the Gate Judge was speaking, but his verbal direction towards ASL was outside the FIS rules.
In USSA racing, verbal direction from a gate Judge to a skier has been gone for years now. Likely when we made the switch to single pole SL. It's the racers responsibility to either clear the gate properly, or go around. There is no more "Back" and "Go."

Single pole SL made it's way to the World Cup starting in 2015 -16 season. ASL (born 1991) is the last of those who skied double pole SL from juniors all the way to World Cup, that generation always hiked up until the "broke the imaginary line" , got the "go" ruling from the judge, and continued.
I doubt any of the younger racers on the WC would make this mistake, because at the junior level they never hiked to beak the plane of a double pole open gate.

(Interestingly, on the very first weekend of single pole SL racing back in 2015, both Bernadette Schild (Aspen) and -I think -Jean Baptise Grange (Levi?) both slid out, then hiked to clear nonexistent outside gates. Our ingrained habits are hard to break!).

Yeah I thought the language was Italian at first, but listening again it doesn’t sound like “vai”, “go”, but more of a ‘d’ sound. It looked line she was thinking skier’s left, but then went right.
The local announcer seems to say the same words later on the pa system, so I assume it means “go”. I looked up that in Croatian and Swedish and got nothing similar.

As I wrote, snow control is done 10-14 days before race. If there's enough snow at that time (about 50cm of packed snow on course), and if it's reasonable to expect course can get race ready in days to the race, it gets green light.

I didn’t get to see the snow at Killington just before snow control, but it was probably right at the limit, even below.
My understanding was that they counted on being able to make more when the temps dropped. They also always make a huge pile at top, even before Wcup races were held there. They push it down for very late season in May. With wcup, they use it to extend course for at least one gate. So if absolutely necessary, I suppose they could’ve cancelled the gs and just had the slalom by pushing most of that snow down. As it was, gs got cancelled from high winds as temp dropped greatly.

 

[K2 Rat]

One of the reasons that the rule is confusing is that it is written in a way that is confusing.
The relevant SL single pole rule "Where there is no outside pole, both feet and ski tips must have passed the turning pole on the same side, following the normal race line of the SL crossing the imaginary line from turning pole to turning pole" could certainly be written more clearly: it can be interpreted differently depending how one reads the sentence. The first part is pretty clear, you have to keep both feet on the outside of the gate. But how does that jibe with "following the normal race line of the SL crossing the imaginary line..." ?
When a racer misses a gate and hikes and chooses to clear a gate in single pole SL by going around, you are both "crossing the imaginary line" with your feet and, your ski tips having "passed the turning pole on the same side," you satisfy the rule, in a somewhat reverse order.
So as written the rule seems to cover all situations, but it's not easily apparent.
I don't know what language the Gate Judge was speaking, but his verbal direction towards ASL was outside the FIS rules.
In USSA racing, verbal direction from a gate Judge to a skier has been gone for years now. Likely when we made the switch to single pole SL. It's the racers responsibility to either clear the gate properly, or go around. There is no more "Back" and "Go."

Single pole SL made it's way to the World Cup starting in 2015 -16 season. ASL (born 1991) is the last of those who skied double pole SL from juniors all the way to World Cup, that generation always hiked up until the "broke the imaginary line" , got the "go" ruling from the judge, and continued.
I doubt any of the younger racers on the WC would make this mistake, because at the junior level they never hiked to beak the plane of a double pole open gate.

(Interestingly, on the very first weekend of single pole SL racing back in 2015, both Bernadette Schild (Aspen) and -I think -Jean Baptise Grange (Levi?) both slid out, then hiked to clear nonexistent outside gates. Our ingrained habits are hard to break!).

And if I recall that although ultimately Schild skied out (DNF) , she was put down as a DQ for her incorrect hike by a very young, but observant, gatekeeper. And would have been the first World Cup DSQ for incorrect hike under the single pole. Clearly not your average joe gatekeeper !

 

[S.H.]

No matter who is responsible, if running a race on that surface is now considered acceptable, then there are no standards aside from access to a couple hundred bags of salt.
There is so little snow in Zagreb right now that, according to the broadcaster yesterday, some of the gate bases were drilled and set into solid earth.
I don’t think Zagreb would pass any objective FIS criteria, either from snow control or the FIS jury.
The safety of the racers should be paramount, not sponsorship money. Let’s hope things don’t deteriorate further.

You've really never seen a race in conditions like that? There are many, every year. They're just not always on World Cup.

You can run a race. The surface wasn't especially dangerous.

 

[Rudi Riet]

You've really never seen a race in conditions like that? There are many, every year. They're just not always on World Cup.

You can run a race. The surface wasn't especially dangerous.

And if you go back 30+ years you'll note that surface conditions on World Cup races were far more variable.

Ruts in slalom? Somewhat common, especially after snowstorms and in the spring.

Bare patches on race pistes? Yup. (In Olle Larsson and James Major's World Cup Ski Technique there is a picture of Stenmark racing a late-season slalom where the bare patches are just outside of the racing line. The race was in the late 1970s at some European venue, IIRC.)

Bootpacked, watered, and not fully smooth? Sure.

Remember: we're not too far removed from the days when wooden slat fencing and hay bales were the gold standard of protection on the Streif. And race organizers no longer rely on slalom racers side-stepping up the course on their skis to inspect (and in the process pack the snow on the race line).

The current standard of a "fair racing surface for all" (read: firm, icy, smooth, and almost the same from week to week, venue to venue) and proper safety (e.g. A-nets where there are major fall zones and multiple layers of B-nets to slow the trajectory of an out-of-control racer) is still fairly new in the grand scheme of alpine racing.

 

[James]

Seems to be excessive hysteria over a course that wasn’t that bad. Really doesn’t matter if another trail there had little snow.

What’s the history of warm weather at Garmisch?

 

[hbear]

Pretty incredible that this is WC and not a J5 race in Tennessee.

View attachment 153998 View attachment 153999

Looks like enough snow to drill gate.

Remember the U16/U14 childrens race over there a couple years ago that was precisly that.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Seems to be excessive hysteria over a course that wasn’t that bad. Really doesn’t matter if another trail there had little snow.

What’s the history of warm weather at Garmisch?

Great example with Garmisch. They get a lot of warm days and a lot of low precipitation years. I recall that one recent World Champs event there was notable for the fact that the only trails skiable on the mountain were the race pistes, and they only achieved this by watering and injecting the whole thing to make it essentially a temporary ice block.

Zagreb did just fine given the weather circumstances. I know they added chemicals to the snow to make it more durable - the surface was reminiscent of summer days on Palmer Glacier at Mount Hood, where it looks glazed because a metric crapload of solar salt is applied every day. Those courses hold up OK, though they will develop holes and chunk up if enough racers use the same line.

The leaves were what they were: more of an aesthetic nuisance than anything else. In a GS they might have been more of a liability, but in a slalom? Nothing crucial. If anything the uphill wind was more of a wild card.

 

[Average Joe]

You've really never seen a race in conditions like that? There are many, every year. They're just not always on World Cup.

You can run a race. The surface wasn't especially dangerous.

I've seen far worse. Don't forget, I coach in the East! We run USSA events all the time on snow that is as bad or worse.
But I was under the impression that FIS had standards for competitions on the World Cup. Minimum injection thickness (6-8" of solid injection on top of the base) for venues that will be used for multiday technical events, so that the wear does not break through.

 

[S.H.]

I've seen far worse. Don't forget, I coach in the East! We run USSA events all the time on snow that is as bad or worse.
But I was under the impression that FIS had standards for competitions on the World Cup. Minimum injection thickness (6-8" of solid injection on top of the base) for venues that will be used for multiday technical events, so that the wear does not break through.

That's what I thought. Hence my surprise.

While that is *ideal*, snow control happens, as @Primoz outlined, well before the event, with the hope that there is a chance of getting a viable surface. Sometimes, weather doesn't cooperate, or a water bar breaks, etc. Canceling a world cup is a big deal in terms of $$$. If they can run a nominally safe event, they will. And they did.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Actually I sort of got a kick out of watching WC racers on a dirt track, rutted two gates and the trouble few racers had with the course and it's 2nd run deterioration, sort of a recollection of some of my racing days. Remembering rut drill with unbuckled boots. As noted during the 2nd run the two top racers had no problems with the "bad" conditions or the ruts at a couple spots on the course.

 

[Teppaz]

Actually I sort of got a kick out of watching WC racers on a dirt track, rutted two gates and the trouble few racers had with the course and it's 2nd run deterioration, sort of a recollection of some of my racing days. Remembering rut drill with unbuckled boots. As noted during the 2nd run the two top racers had no problems with the "bad" conditions or the ruts at a couple spots on the course.

I agree: from a viewer's standpoint, it was exciting to watch which racers overcame the conditions. Part of the point of skiing is adapting to the conditions. Ali Nullmeyer, for example, made it look easy and I believe she came up with the fastest time of run 2.

 

[Swede]

Thing with such a track is that it suddenly and constantly changes, the surface breaks and create holes. If you’re the skier when it brakes, best case you loose time. Then there’s a big hole. Next skier doesn’t know exactly what it looks like or how it will impact, what’s the best way to deal with it? After 2-3-4 skiers trying, loosing time, skiing out, it will be figured out. And the following skiers has a new adapted tactic and can be faster again. So besides skill, you also need some luck with your position in regard to the detoriation of the track.

 

[Swede]

I hear Flachau might be cancelled by Austrian government due to Covid in the area.

 

[S.H.]

I hear Flachau might be cancelled by Austrian government due to Covid in the area.

seems pretty official?

https://www.eurosport.com/alpine-skiing/flachau/2021-2022/ski-world-cup-ladies-night-slalom-in-flachau-cancelled-due-to-growing-covid-19-cases-in-the-area_sto8695034/story.shtml

looking for another host, though, I think

 

[S.H.]

Thing with such a track is that it suddenly and constantly changes, the surface breaks and create holes. If you’re the skier when it brakes, best case you loose time. Then there’s a big hole. Next skier doesn’t know exactly what it looks like or how it will impact, what’s the best way to deal with it? After 2-3-4 skiers trying, loosing time, skiing out, it will be figured out. And the following skiers has a new adapted tactic and can be faster again. So besides skill, you also need some luck with your position in regard to the detoriation of the track.

yep. that's ski racing.

 

[Primoz]

Yeah Flachau is cancelled for sure (I got msg from organizer earlier today). Not sure how it goes, as officially OSV is looking for another organizer (inside of Austria) so no idea if this is again some special Austria arrangement, where every state has it's own rules, and might be it's problem only in Salzburg, which means also Zauchensee will probably have similar destiny while Kitz (Tirol) and Schladming (Styria) are good to go. If it's whole Austria, then no idea how this will play out.
Addon: Message just came, that Flachau SL will be held in Schladming. Same date, same starting times. So obviously it's really Salzburg issue, and Styria has its own rules so everything is good, even if it's less then 30km between locations