WOMEN’S World Cup 2021-2022

[Quandary]

Didn’t mean to offend. Perhaps I should have said she is not as “natural” an athlete as some of the others because she certainly is gifted.
It seems she relies more on her dedication, superior technique & conditioning than pure athleticism to win. For instance, she isn’t gonna ski off the fence ala Bode Miller & still almost win the Hahnenkamm DH race or just grunt her way out of trouble to win like Hector did the other day.

How do you define athleticism? This is such a common mistake for any athlete who is so smooth and balanced they make it look easy. The way a great golfer, basketball player or Formula One driver makes it look easy. Its all in the natural balance, the internal gyroscope. Virtually anyone can train themselves into being competitive a sport of some kind. But you can't train that sense of body and space. Thats what makes the greats great. That is what true superior "athleticism" is and Shiffrin has it. A simple comparison is to watch Vlhova, she looks like she is working to go fast, Shiffrin looks virtually effortless. That's the difference between a good athlete and a great one.

 

[James]

A simple comparison is to watch Vlhova, she looks like she is working to go fast, Shiffrin looks virtually effortless. That's the difference between a good athlete and a great one.

I don’t think anyone doubts Shiffrin is a better skier. She’s one of the all time greats.
But Vhlova doesn’t look that hard working here. They are much different body types.

In terms of the natural athlete thing, well this is something said by coaches who’ve worked with her or around her and others for years. It’s a subject worthy of an entire thesis or book.

 

[geepers]

How do you define athleticism? This is such a common mistake for any athlete who is so smooth and balanced they make it look easy. The way a great golfer, basketball player or Formula One driver makes it look easy. Its all in the natural balance, the internal gyroscope. Virtually anyone can train themselves into being competitive a sport of some kind. But you can't train that sense of body and space. Thats what makes the greats great. That is what true superior "athleticism" is and Shiffrin has it. A simple comparison is to watch Vlhova, she looks like she is working to go fast, Shiffrin looks virtually effortless. That's the difference between a good athlete and a great one.

With @James on this one re PV not looking like she's working that hard. And given there's no style points in alpine skiing and the only measure that counts is elapsed time does it even matter? Both PV and MS are clearly athletic enough to get the job done.

And maybe how the athletes appear (working hard or otherwise) has more to do with how closely they are being pushed by the competition. MH generally looked like he was On A Mission - with a pretty severe facial expression to match. And in the current crop of men's SL... hard to believe there would be no-one with strong athletic credentials yet it appears impossible to string 2 good runs together.

 

[4ster]

Siebenhofer
Curtoni
Tippler

 

[James]

Yeah this is a tough one. No Goggia, Shiffrin, Ledecka, LGB

Siebenhofer
Weidle
Suter, Corinne

 

[dbostedo]

Brignone
Siebenhofer
Weidle

 

[Bolder]

How do you define athleticism? This is such a common mistake for any athlete who is so smooth and balanced they make it look easy. The way a great golfer, basketball player or Formula One driver makes it look easy. Its all in the natural balance, the internal gyroscope. Virtually anyone can train themselves into being competitive a sport of some kind. But you can't train that sense of body and space. Thats what makes the greats great. That is what true superior "athleticism" is and Shiffrin has it. A simple comparison is to watch Vlhova, she looks like she is working to go fast, Shiffrin looks virtually effortless. That's the difference between a good athlete and a great one.

Those are certainly good points.

But look at examples in other sports -- for example basketball. John Stockton and Steve Nash -- neither were incredible "natural" athletes. Compare with Ja Morant, who has athletic skills you can't teach (did you SEE him block that shot above the rim vs the Lakes. Un-effing-believable!), Would you say Nash or Morant is a better guard? No, you'd say that Nash/Stockton, while fine "athletes" in their own right, had incredible technical skills and feel for the game.

To be clear, Morant knows the game, has all the skills etc., but you can't teach or practice a 40-something vertical leap. (as an aside, both Morant and Stockton/Nash made the game look easy, but in different ways)

Just as you can't teach or practice Vlhova's 6-foot, 165 pound frame and "athleticism," it's no knock on Shiffrin to say she's a better technical skier than athletic skier. I'd argue that Shiffrin looks effortless because she has better technique.

But no matter -- that's what's great about sport, more than one way to skin a cat or win a race...

 

[Quandary]

it's no knock on Shiffrin to say she's a better technical skier than athletic skier. I'd argue that Shiffrin looks effortless because she has better technique.

I would argue she has better technique because she has better balance, better natural innate skill. Add that to her work ethic and the result is a world class athlete.

 

[James]

View attachment 157406
Siebenhofer
Curtoni
Tippler

Seemed like today was Austrians vs Swiss with a few Italians. Swiss prevailed.Good for Suter, she got a win. Nice line she took on that second major left footer wher you go up then down.

https://medias3.fis-ski.com/pdf/2022/AL/5085/2022AL5085RLR0.pdf

 

[Teppaz]

A rare tie at the top in today's Super G. Brignone hasn't locked the globe but she's pretty close. Interesting how she's won 3 Super G's this season and not a single GS. In fact I don't think she's even podium'ed in GS this season.

 

[DocGKR]

World Cup Garmisch-Partenkirchen (GER)

www.fis-ski.com

 

[Erik Timmerman]

How about Sarah Schlepper going to yet another Olympics?

 

[Muleski]

How about Sarah Schlepper going to yet another Olympics?

Sarah is what, 44? And she comes from a totally unique family. So, it’s easy to dump all over this “effort” courtesy of her marriage and Mexican passport.

Then……the fact is that she rarely skis any SL {her main discipline in her prime}, BUT, her GS world rank hovers just over 200, which is very “legit”. All legitimate race results. She’s done quite a bit of coaching in CO.

I don’t “get” her ongoing Olympic campaigns, etc. but this is not somebody working the system in one of the countless ways possible to hit the magic points number to “qualify” in the GS. And, Mexico fulls the bill.

34 points, on the “new” points system is pretty strong. Very strong at 44.

So, OK by me!

 

[Jack skis]

Sarah Schlepper is a ski racer, was a high level competitor, and can still "qualify" for the Olympics. With that back ground, and level of ability who wouldn't want to go to another Olympics?

 

[Primoz]

@Muleski while I agree it's "not somebody working the system in one of the countless ways possible to hit the magic points number" but it's still somebody working the system in one of the countless ways possible" to get to the Olympic (racing with proper passport which is different then passport you were racing with your whole career). So realistically it's not that much different as her "countryman" prince.

 

[Bolder]

@Muleski while I agree it's "not somebody working the system in one of the countless ways possible to hit the magic points number" but it's still somebody working the system in one of the countless ways possible" to get to the Olympic (racing with proper passport which is different then passport you were racing with your whole career). So realistically it's not that much different as her "countryman" prince.

Yeah, but that's one of the charming things about the Olympics. You've always got a few playboys in riding, bobsled, skiing etc; as well as nutjobs like Eddie the Eagle, dreamers like the Jamaican bobsled team, and the odd Tongan or Cormoros islander finishing last in race walking or whatever event. Love it!

The point is, someone like Schlepper isn't going to affect the podium fight in any event, so why not enter and have some fun? (I'd make a bad joke about Schlepper not fit to carry Petra Vlhova's skis...but I won't)

 

[Primoz]

@Bolder I totally respect someone else opinion in this case, but for me things are different, and I look at this different then most of people, but it's just my personal opinion/view to this, nothing more. Now short, or maybe not so short, explanation why I look at this differently, and why I personally consider this sort of stunts disrespectful to people who really work hard to earn their place at Olympics. Main thing is, I have been in this sport for long long time, first as racer, then as serviceman, and I know how much effort I put in this myself as racer (or later some of my racers), to never been able to come even close to Olympics. I'm not saying it's anyone elses fault then my own. I just wasn't good enough, and some Mexican being at Olympics didn't "steal" my place there. I should ski faster and I would be there, Mexican or no Mexican. So with this, it's no like some are crying over those quotas, that such people steal their place at Olympics. They don't. Quotas are there forever, maybe they were a bit different, but normally main issue was 4 people per country only "quota". So if you were good enough, and you were not worse then 3 of your teammates, you were and will be there, regardless of Mexicans, Tongans and similar.
But for me it's sort of disrespectful to brag about being Olympian when you clearly bought yourself in (like Vanessa Mae sample I wrote about I think in different thread), while people who are on top of World's ranking and don't have chance to even see Olympics, because there's 4 of their countrymen that are better (no that was not the case with me, as I was nowhere near "top of ranking", that there won't be some misunderstanding). So that's why I don't consider this as "charm of Olympics". But as I wrote, that's only my personal opinion, nothing more, and certainly not something what anyone else should consider. So if someone else thinks different, I'm perfectly fine with it.

 

[James]

I just wasn't good enough

Well you just didn’t marry a nice girl from Costa Rica!

Here’s Hohenloe, back when he was only 55. Now he’s 62.
Painful. He’s + 58sec. So maybe this Olympics he’ll be +65 ish. I think he dnf’d in Sochi, Ante Kostelic’s course might have helped.

 

[goweje]

The point is, someone like Schlepper isn't going to affect the podium fight in any event, so why not enter and have some fun?

Why not? I'll give you two choices:
A. The current qualification is a zero sum game. Every spot that goes to these novelty acts takes a spot away from a world class athlete who's been working their butt off and training 24/7. (examples: Fabio Gstrein, Chiara Maier, Steven Nyman, Jared Goldberg, Ben Ritchie).

Hubertus himself said the qualification process for participatory nations should be separate. I think they've overthought this process. If you're in the top 30 of the WCSL you should be eligible for the Olympics, only subject to the 4 per nation/per event limit.

B. With each additional competitor comes an added burden on the host nation. Space, facilities, staff, money etc. It has gotten to the point that the only people willing to foot the bill are authoritarian regimes looking to use the Olympics to flex their muscles. At the end of the day there were no western nations willing to host this Olympics. The IOCs only alternative to Beijing was Kazakhstan where just this month there's been antigovernment unrest and a possible coup.

 

[Muleski]

Interesting.
I was just thinking about the friend and former ski academy classmate of my daughter’s. She was pretty “solid”…good enough to qualify for NCAA Champs. She also skied on one OWG’s, representing her Southern Hemisphere home country {her real home}.
I just checked her FIS profile. At the time, about 27 SL points, 37 GS. On the old basis. That ranked her just under 300 in SL. No funny business in scoring to earn that point profile.
Was she going to medal? Heck no. Was being one of quite a few winter olympians from her country a big deal? Yes. Was this a one time deal or PR stunt by anybody? Nope. They have had athletes racing on the WC, the EC and OWG’s for decades.

Now Sarah, even approaching age 44, would kick her ass. In fact Sarah fairly regularly dusts some of the younger women in the USST system, in GS. Her WR is just over 200, which is NOTHING like these idiots staging races, fully sanctioned by FIS, paying athletes to thrown their points and ski slow and making a mockery of things.

TODAY, Sarah would be, I believe in the top 30 of US skiers. I have not checked and done the math. She’s in GS around Lila Lapanja, who’s not a truly legit one these days, IMO.

Sarah’s husband is Mexican. Their two kids have dual citizenship, and Sarah does as well. They are raising their kids with homes in CO and Mexico….and the family is based in Europe, I believe, for much of the winter. Kids, I hear are close to fluent in German and Italian…completely fluent in Spanish and English.

I have no clue how the Prince factors into Mexican ski racing. I think that the fact that he still “competes” on this stage is a total joke. And yes, in the past he has tried to recruit and pay real WC has-beens to get a passport and join him. I know two who declined.

Sarah seems legitimately interested in increasing ski racing awareness in Mexico and being and ambassador and coach. My understanding is that a number of Mexican kids and parents have moved to CO for the winter months, to follow their passion.

I was also thinking about some of the college kids who are skiing in the olympics. Ali Nullmeyer of Can and Middlebury is a very legit WC skier. She has a teammate representing Brazil for his second OWG’s. Very, very solid NCAA skier. WC regular? No? Is there a problem with that?

There is a girl who attends a VT college with an NCAA team. She is on the roster, but it seems like she will never qualify as one of their six “carnival” racers. Her point profile is not so great. However, she was born and raised in NJ by Ecuadorian parents. Has dual citizenship. Is going to the the “one woman team” for Ecuador. Flag bearer…the works. I struggle watching the TV interviews. Like she presents herself as a legit racer. Despite her ski academy years, her WR in her best event is over 2300.

But it’s a “big deal………”

I just don’t see Sarah Schleper as quite the same side show.

Obviously just my opinion that others differ with. No issues!

BTW, the OWG’s and the WC ARE VERY different. Though I think that every WC racer would like an Olympic medal in their trophy case.

And to the general public, here in the USA, they think that the USST means “Olympic Skier…” “Ohh, you’re a ski racer? Do you want to go to the Olympics when you are older?” said probably a thousand people to my kids………

When my then seven year old would respond “Not really, I want to win Kitz”, they were sort of confused……

We’ll see some interesting video from China….always do every four years…