Womens intermediate carver recommendations

[lisamamot]

It's one of those "why aren't more people skiing this ski" skis? I'm quite certain it's the exact same ski as the Astral, just rebranded with the Santa Ana name because of the name.

YES - such an overlooked ski! I loved the last iteration of the Astral when I demoed it. My husband says the same about his Navigator 90.

 

[late4gates]

Thanks everyone. I’ll call this a wrap. I’m sure she’ll find something she likes out of these.

 

[Andy Mink]

Thanks everyone. I’ll call this a wrap. I’m sure she’ll find something she likes out of these.

You do realize, of course, this thread will continue long after your wife has picked new skis, right?

 

[ThomasD]

My wife is a dedicated blue groomer skier, and learned old school. For the past 20+ years she's been skiing a pair of Rossi Bandit Ls. Tried various newer skis with more sidecut over the years, but never really liked any of them. This year it was either new skis or new bindings. She demoed the Atomic Cloud 9s and we finally found a winner. Within about four days on them her technique has shown real improvements - actually carving the top of the turns now. She finds them very smooth, stable and requiring much less effort than her previous skis. Just be aware they are only 73 mm underfoot, so will be a serious change from what your wife has been used to.

 

[AlexisLD]

My wife is a dedicated blue groomer skier, and learned old school. For the past 20+ years she's been skiing a pair of Rossi Bandit Ls. Tried various newer skis with more sidecut over the years, but never really liked any of them. This year it was either new skis or new bindings. She demoed the Atomic Cloud 9s and we finally found a winner. Within about four days on them her technique has shown real improvements - actually carving the top of the turns now. She finds them very smooth, stable and requiring much less effort than her previous skis. Just be aware they are only 73 mm underfoot, so will be a serious change from what your wife has been used to.

I think this is interesting.

Shorter sidecut radius are harder to manage if you don't have the best technique. They will also create more forces for same speed and edge angle. Maybe not the cup of tea of most intermediate skiers.

Beside that, you can look at the graph below comparing this skis to other skis of similar length/width. Smooth and less efforts can be explained by the low bending stiffness compared to other skis. A soft ski complies to the terrain (smooth) and is easier to bend to initiate the turn. They also "come alive" at lower speed. The Cloud 9 also has a median torsional stiffness, but many skis can be 2x stiffer than this one. These are for expert skiers. You also have a bit of rocker and quite a bit of tip taper to make it easier to manage (less catchy) in 3D snow. The light construction/mass will also help with requiring less efforts.

Stable is a little bit less intuitive. You would usually think that a low bending stiffness would be less stable, but this ski has huge amount of camber to compensate for the low bending stiffness. This put pressure on the tip/tail and will create stability. She was also probably looking for a ski that was "stable enough" for the speed at which she is skiing, not the most stable ski out there. Really important to keep that in mind.

Now you can look for other skis that will feel equally pleasant to her (or just enjoy the one you found)!

 

[ThomasD]

I think this is interesting.

Shorter sidecut radius are harder to manage if you don't have the best technique. They will also create more forces for same speed and edge angle. Maybe not the cup of tea of most intermediate skiers.

Beside that, you can look at the graph below comparing this skis to other skis of similar length/width. Smooth and less efforts can be explained by the low bending stiffness compared to other skis. A soft ski complies to the terrain (smooth) and is easier to bend to initiate the turn. They also "come alive" at lower speed. The Cloud 9 also has a median torsional stiffness, but many skis can be 2x stiffer than this one. These are for expert skiers. You also have a bit of rocker and quite a bit of tip taper to make it easier to manage (less catchy) in 3D snow. The light construction/mass will also help with requiring less efforts.

Stable is a little bit less intuitive. You would usually think that a low bending stiffness would be less stable, but this ski has huge amount of camber to compensate for the low bending stiffness. This put pressure on the tip/tail and will create stability. She was also probably looking for a ski that was "stable enough" for the speed at which she is skiing, not the most stable ski out there. Really important to keep that in mind.

Now you can look for other skis that will feel equally pleasant to her (or just enjoy the one you found)!

View attachment 156230

Thanks! Where did you generate that graphic? I doubt they have the specs on the old Bandits, but it would be interesting if they did. I was hoping to get her on a pair of the Cloud 12s as well, as she is a quite experienced skier and fully capable of driving them. But I was concerned that she might not want to anymore (we are both passed the half century mark now and she is two years post spinal fusion/hardware.) Unfortunately they were not available, but one run on the Cloud 7s said that was the wrong direction for sure. I think your observations about the combination of higher turning radius and full camber along with a lower stiffness is spot on. She is 5'5", right at 130# and is on the 164 length. The trick with figuring her out was that she's never really skied anything with a more 'modern' (ie wide) waist width or shorter radius and was not really interested in doing so.

 

[François Pugh]

Thanks! Where did you generate that graphic? I doubt they have the specs on the old Bandits, but it would be interesting if they did. I was hoping to get her on a pair of the Cloud 12s as well, as she is a quite experienced skier and fully capable of driving them. But I was concerned that she might not want to anymore (we are both passed the half century mark now and she is two years post spinal fusion/hardware.) Unfortunately they were not available, but one run on the Cloud 7s said that was the wrong direction for sure. I think your observations about the combination of higher turning radius and full camber along with a lower stiffness is spot on. She is 5'5", right at 130# and is on the 164 length. The trick with figuring her out was that she's never really skied anything with a more 'modern' (ie wide) waist width or shorter radius and was not really interested in doing so.

Sooth Ski

Compare

compareskis.shinyapps.io

@AlexisLD has this web site. I think it's his.... could be wrong.

 

[late4gates]

Well, demo day today. She got on the Wild Belles and wouldn’t get off. We’re in the mandatory cool off period before I pull the CC.

 

[Hankj]

Sierra.com has the Liberty V76W 165cm for a screaming deal at $199 and the V82W 165cm for a very good $299. Both have been very positively reviewed and I think @Tricia especially likes the V76W. I think either would be a good choice for your wife. I ski the V76 (non W version) in 165cm and really love it.

I own and love Liberty skis! The V series puts a lot of edge on the snow for the length of the ski. If your wife is feeling like the Black Pearl 153 is a little much, the Liberty skis in 165 are probably also going to come across as a lot.

Also, I like skinnier skis, but they feel tippier than wider skis. 82 is sufficiently narrow to roll up on an edge quickly, but feels more stable when you're flat basing. I would think the right 85-90 ski would make her happy.

If she's not into the Black Pearls, don't focus on building a quiver around them. First find her an everyday driver she likes, and then given the qualities that ski has start thinking quiver.

 

[ADKmel]

Sierra.com has the Liberty V76W 165cm for a screaming deal at $199 and the V82W 165cm for a very good $299. Both have been very positively reviewed and I think @Tricia especially likes the V76W. I think either would be a good choice for your wife. I ski the V76 (non W version) in 165cm and really love it.

I love my V76w's

 

[Hankj]

Following this thread... my wife has been skiing Volkl Kama, circa 2019, and probably could use a new ski and fits the ability mentioned in the first post.

SkiEssentials

www.skiessentials.com

She is 5' 1" and prefers cruising blues and needs a ski that is confidence inspiring and can handle the afternoon chop and the 'icy patches' out west since she is NOT an early riser and thus is skiing afternoons in cut-up conditions. On paper, the Kama seems to be ideal for her. But I think maybe the construction for shortest length (<150 cm) might be too stiff or have a bad flex pattern based on how she skis with them. I am not sure these scale well down to the shortest length.

I've ruled out Liberty because of the tuning issues I've seen repeatedly on this forum. The new ski needs to have a passable tune out of the wrapper since we travel to ski and there is no tuning local to us. We can get it tuned at the resort, but they need a good starting point since slope side tuners tend to be less... competent.

I don't have a particular ski to recommend, but want to put in for consideration that you think about a ski that is both damp and easy to handle.

My wife is an intermediate, felt okay about her QST Luxe 92's. Then she skied the Rossi Souls 3 days straight when it was deeper. Easy to turn, huge sweet spot, and significantly heavier and more damp than her QSTs. Now she doesn't like her QSTs, feels she has to always be in the front seat a lot more to make them work, feels that they get pinged around by death cookies and in cut up terrain too much. The Souls aren't a hardpack ski, so I'm figuring out some groomer skis for her that are both pretty soft and pretty damp with pretty good edge grip. I think that will make her happy, and is probably doable if we aren't looking for a ski with a high-speed limit.

 

[AmyPJ]

Well, demo day today. She got on the Wild Belles and wouldn’t get off. We’re in the mandatory cool off period before I pull the CC.

You have your answer. I need to get on these skis. What length did she try?

 

[Andy Mink]

Well, demo day today. She got on the Wild Belles and wouldn’t get off. We’re in the mandatory cool off period before I pull the CC.

She hit oil, quit drilling.

 

[late4gates]

If she's not into the Black Pearls, don't focus on building a quiver around them. First find her an everyday driver she likes, and then given the qualities that ski has start thinking quiver.

Good advice, and this ski will be her daily driver. The BPs will just cover for deep snow because they can (until she decides to get more serious). She’s unlikely to go skinny at this point, so the Libertys are not her wheelhouse. On the other hand I’m in a state of paralysis deciding which Liberty to get

 

[PinnacleJim]

She’s not a charger, and 100% on piste (she recently decided on that definitively). She’s also less interested in pure carvers because she wants to ski it most of the time. If I were to use male/unisex skis as an analogy I would say she’s looking for something between an Enforcer 88 (but for piste only) and a Head V10. Maybe a Dynastar 4x4 82 - an all condition groomer ski. Not a Firebird or a Supershape. These in terms of conditions but targeting an Intermediate. We are both seniors too.

Actually the Head V8 or V10 are viable options. I have the V8 and it has been my groomer ski for the last couple of years. As a lighter (165 lb) senior conservative expert skier that skis at moderate speeds, I have been very happy with the V8. Light, not too stiff, but plenty of performance when you need it.

 

[late4gates]

You have your answer. I need to get on these skis. What length did she try?

156. She could go to a 162 I think.

 

[AlexisLD]

Thanks! Where did you generate that graphic? I doubt they have the specs on the old Bandits, but it would be interesting if they did. I was hoping to get her on a pair of the Cloud 12s as well, as she is a quite experienced skier and fully capable of driving them. But I was concerned that she might not want to anymore (we are both passed the half century mark now and she is two years post spinal fusion/hardware.) Unfortunately they were not available, but one run on the Cloud 7s said that was the wrong direction for sure. I think your observations about the combination of higher turning radius and full camber along with a lower stiffness is spot on. She is 5'5", right at 130# and is on the 164 length. The trick with figuring her out was that she's never really skied anything with a more 'modern' (ie wide) waist width or shorter radius and was not really interested in doing so.

I did that on the comparator we built to compare ski measurements. It is available at www.soothski.com, look at the end/bottom of the compare section.

We don't have the Bandits and haven't measured all the Atomic Cloud skis. You can see the one we have in about 160 cm here (9, 11, 12). I have trouble understanding that series. From my understanding they are supposed to go from 7 to 12 in order of price but also somewhat skill (7 being beginner AND advanced, while the 12 being only advanced). It seems like the main changes are:
- 7: foam (densolite) core without sidewalls
- 8: foam with sidewalls
- 9: foam + wood with sidewalls
- 11: wood + titanal with sidewalls
- 12: wood (different kind) + titanal with sidewalls

Price seems to be increasing with number also. They are all roughly the same width, roughly the same sidecut radius and all roughly the same width. The 12 is the heaviest, the 11 is a bit lighter than the 9. Stiffness wise, the 9 is a bit stiffer in torsion and the 11 is a bit stiffer in bending. I don't see consistent scaling, but we only measured 3 out of the 5 skis and the length are not exactly the same. The difference we see might be more variations from making skis with different materials than anything else.

Beside the mass difference (higher mass will make the ski fell more damp and a bit more like a charger in chopped snow), I would think that these skis would be skiing relatively uniformly (e.g., on smooth groomer). They are built from different materials, but their specs are relatively uniform. Some people say that foam skis don't last and are less damp, but we don't measure that. I haven't skied them and it is hard to find reviews comparing them. Maybe someone else can chip in?

I think you made a pretty good choice with the Cloud 9. It doesn't seem very toned down from the 12 to me. And if she skis mostly blues/groomer, there is no point going wider.

 

[AmyPJ]

Good advice, and this ski will be her daily driver. The BPs will just cover for deep snow because they can (until she decides to get more serious). She’s unlikely to go skinny at this point, so the Libertys are not her wheelhouse. On the other hand I’m in a state of paralysis deciding which Liberty to get

The BP 97 may never be her jam, even in powder. They are really built for hard charging women, so if she wants to get more confidence in powder, they are probably not the best option.