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Workflow for belt / stone grinder

Mountain Lab

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I have been reading a lot of interesting posts about the topic of stone grinding vs belt grinding machines in this forum, but it seems that there is no 100% agreement on the proper workflow when using these machines.

A bit of background: in my spare time I do simple maintenance of ski’s for friends and the occasional customer (wax / ptex repair / edges sharpening, all manual) and rent out touring gear. I’m currently looking into buying a combined belt / stone grinder (cheap) to do some basic ski maintenance for own ski’s / rental the (touring) ski’s / friends / occasional customers but I’m in no way doing maintenance for racers or people understanding the concept of base bevels vs edge angles or know the difference between a 1-2-3° angle (so really basic tunes). Since it's really hard to find any information on this on my country (we don't have any mountains), was happy to read on all the insightful information on this board.

Anyhow: I have the opportunity to buy an older Reichmann machine that is still working properly (1995-ish) with a combined belt / stone grinder but looking for some answers:
  • Do you actually need a belt grinder or can you do everything as well with only a stone grinder?
  • If yes, when do you use the belt grinder? For establishing a flat base / setting base bevel?
  • How often do you need to redress the stone? Every other pair? Every time you change the structure? Occasionally? How time consuming is this?
  • If you receive a ski with slightly damaged base + slight convex base, what is the proper workflow?
    • Clean base
    • Ptex base
    • Scrape off excessive ptex
    • Deburr (bases only?) edges
    • Pregrind stone (I read somewhere)?
    • Belt grind until base is even
    • Stone grind new structure?
    • Polish cork?
    • Set edge angle by using razor tune / belt grinder
    • When / how do you set base bevel? Is this done through the belt grinding part? Or done manually or with e.g. Wintersteiger Trimdisc 71 (also for sale cheap) and at what stage?
  • Open door: How difficult is it to learn how to use such a machine without destroying your ski’s (I have enough “single” ski’s to do some practicing, but still…)?
Appreciate any feedback
 

GregK

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Here’s some videos with the typical steps for machine tuning.

Belts are used usually to flatten the ski but they don’t have the ability to add structure to the ski, so a belt has to be followed by the stone.
You could just use a stone alone for flattening and structure but it might take a lot of passes to flatten the ski Vs using a belt for that stage.

Usually the edges are gone over first to remove nicks and prevent damage to the stone or belt. P-Tex repairs done and scrapped and then flattened by the belt or stone.
Once you flatten the base, the base edges will get hit as well so they will need to be reset to the desire bevel after all the grinding is done.
Stone grinding will leave the base fuzzy so a pass on the cork or use of a brass brush/rotary and Scotch Brite pads to remove.

What model number is the machine? Should be owners manual’s online and maybe the seller can get you some instruction?
How long ago was the Stone replaced? They aren’t cheap so keep that in mind.

If it’s a semi auto machine with a feeding wheel, they aren’t too difficult to learn. You can vary the wheel speed and pressure so you can make passes milder or harder if desired.
Free hand grinding using coarse sandpaper takes skill and practice so easier to get into trouble there.
 
Thread Starter
TS
M

Mountain Lab

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hey @GregK thanks!
I think I already saw all the video's i could find on youtube :)
With regards to the model: it's a TSM-E Multi SNB 300, with 200mm left on the stone (not sure if this is a lot) and a diamond dresser in ok state
The seller has already supplied me with the manual, but it's in German which I can get translated by Google and which gives me some info, but it's not telling you how you need to organise for the work (in what order, what speed, what pressure, ...)

When you say remove nicks, this is done by hand? Same for resetting the bevel: done by hand, or can you use for example a trimdisc 71 for this?
 

GregK

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hey @GregK thanks!
I think I already saw all the video's i could find on youtube :)
With regards to the model: it's a TSM-E Multi SNB 300, with 200mm left on the stone (not sure if this is a lot) and a diamond dresser in ok state
The seller has already supplied me with the manual, but it's in German which I can get translated by Google and which gives me some info, but it's not telling you how you need to organise for the work (in what order, what speed, what pressure, ...)

When you say remove nicks, this is done by hand? Same for resetting the bevel: done by hand, or can you use for example a trimdisc 71 for this?
Think I saw the unit for sale when I googled it. Asking 1500 Euros? The first thing I noticed is the small width stone which is on the edge of tip widths on powder skis and wouldn’t allow snowboards. Most are now the 300mm widths like the belt probably is.

I’d contact Reichman to find your closest rep as they would be who you’d contact for any repair or maintenance issues in the future. They should be able to answer any questions you have on it and give advice on settings. Might even have contacts for other used machines. If you’re not finding many contacts or info available, I might wait and search out an older Wintersteiger with full width stone.
I have also looked into older machines for home use and find there are more often Wintersteiger machines out there with places moving to more modern ones.

The Wintersteiger Trim Disc 71 is a more current machine and find there is more info, help and parts availability on their machines as they are the big guns on tuning automation. Easy to set up base and side edge bevels on this machine and could be used before and after grinding.
You could go over by hand to confirm your results and better refine the edges.
 
Thread Starter
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Mountain Lab

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Correct, 1500€ :) Sounds reasonable
I'm aware of the smaller stone, but I think for most ski's, this should be sufficient

Good point on the rep: just send them an e-mail, thanks again!
 

Toddski13

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Here’s some videos with the typical steps for machine tuning.

Belts are used usually to flatten the ski but they don’t have the ability to add structure to the ski, so a belt has to be followed by the stone.
You could just use a stone alone for flattening and structure but it might take a lot of passes to flatten the ski Vs using a belt for that stage.

Usually the edges are gone over first to remove nicks and prevent damage to the stone or belt. P-Tex repairs done and scrapped and then flattened by the belt or stone.
Once you flatten the base, the base edges will get hit as well so they will need to be reset to the desire bevel after all the grinding is done.
Stone grinding will leave the base fuzzy so a pass on the cork or use of a brass brush/rotary and Scotch Brite pads to remove.

What model number is the machine? Should be owners manual’s online and maybe the seller can get you some instruction?
How long ago was the Stone replaced? They aren’t cheap so keep that in mind.

If it’s a semi auto machine with a feeding wheel, they aren’t too difficult to learn. You can vary the wheel speed and pressure so you can make passes milder or harder if desired.
Free hand grinding using coarse sandpaper takes skill and practice so easier to get into trouble there.
To address a common misconception - you 100% cannot use a belt to flatten a ski. You can achieve the appearance of flat, but between the contact wheel, belt itself, and feed wheel there is simply too much give or play to actually put the ski base into a flat plane.

Stone grinding is 100% the superior way to tune and the only way to achieve flatness, but it can take more time to get there.

Belts have a place in the shop, especially when it comes to wider equipment that is torsionally weak and challenging to flatten with the stone, but it’s important to know that one is only achieving the appearance of flat, not actually flattening.

Shops that ‘flatten on the belt and finish on the stone’ are really just roughing up the base enough so that a stone ground structure will reinforce the appearance of flatness, but aren’t actually getting the equipment flat.

And, the fuzziness mentioned here is 99% from the belt, 1% from the stone. Done right, the stone doesn’t leave fuzz as it is much more effective at cutting material cleanly than a belt.
 

GregK

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To address a common misconception - you 100% cannot use a belt to flatten a ski. You can achieve the appearance of flat, but between the contact wheel, belt itself, and feed wheel there is simply too much give or play to actually put the ski base into a flat plane.

Stone grinding is 100% the superior way to tune and the only way to achieve flatness, but it can take more time to get there.

Belts have a place in the shop, especially when it comes to wider equipment that is torsionally weak and challenging to flatten with the stone, but it’s important to know that one is only achieving the appearance of flat, not actually flattening.

Shops that ‘flatten on the belt and finish on the stone’ are really just roughing up the base enough so that a stone ground structure will reinforce the appearance of flatness, but aren’t actually getting the equipment flat.

And, the fuzziness mentioned here is 99% from the belt, 1% from the stone. Done right, the stone doesn’t leave fuzz as it is much more effective at cutting material cleanly than a belt.
I always specify “stone only” and specify the minimum number of passes when getting my skis ground as I agree it’s a lot of work to get rid of the coarseness caused by belts.

Places could use the stone only for 30-40 plus flattening passes on a smaller machine to reset/blank a ski before structuring but still places out there that may use higher grit belts during the flattening stage to save time. Will then finish with flattening passes on the stone and then structuring passes on the stone. The experience and skill of the tech definitely come into play here!
Super easy on a fully automatic machine to just press the “blanking option” and it’s done incredibly well using stones only in 2 minutes.

In case the skis weren’t hit with a buffing wheel after a grind, using a brass brush/Scotch Brite pad will just insure there is zero issues before waxing. The finishing on a fully automatic machine I’ve found to always be excellent so try to use them when available.
 
Thread Starter
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Mountain Lab

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So, in the meanwhile, the machine is on it's way, looking forward to start practicing with it. Still had a few questions:
  • If you would advice to use 100% stone to flatten bases, do you need to redress the stone between flattening & structuring with stone?
  • For the moment no trimdisc, so I guess that after flattening, I need to reset the bevel by hand? Any advice in (very) good tools to do this because what i have (toko variable edge tool & basic file) doensn't seem to do a lot...
thanks again for all your advice!
 

GregK

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If you would advice to use 100% stone to flatten bases, do you need to redress the stone between flattening & structuring with stone?
Usually you re-dress after any change in structure patterns or after a certain number of passes if you’re keeping the same pattern and hitting several pairs of skis with that same pattern.

Here’s a video showing some flattening passes(usually a fine linear structure) and then a universal structure to finish.


You would usually go over the edges to make sure there’s no damage on them as that will hurt the stone. If you don’t have a trim Jet, this would be done by hand then.
Depending on how flat the base is, the skis might need a bunch of passes before the base edges are hit and reset.

Toko, Swix and lots of others have lots of fixed base and side guides along with coarse(1st cut), medium(2nd cut) and fine(finishing) files. Then there would be the same coarseness in stones used after the files. For maintenance you might just use medium and fine files and stones.
The above video shows this process as well but does the waxing before finishing the edges. Most finish the base then side edge work before starting waxing instead.
Also more rare to use a hard gummy stone to detune now like he does in this video as modern, rockered skis don’t need to be detuned. Just run a soft gummy with no pressure along the edge to remove any hanging burrs.
 

Chenzo

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This is how I would process a ski with that equipment. I'm not familiar with that particular machine, but I'm curious to see what the control panel looks like. I've personally owned a reichmann 300mm stone grinder, great machine.

1. Put a true bar on the ski and determine if it's base high, or base low.
2. If base low, make a few passes on the belt to achieve desired base bevel.
3. If base high, skip #2, and go straight to the stone.
4. To expedite flattening, dress the stone with a coarse structure, a handful of passes should suffice. You will have to redress stone to a less aggressive structure for final grinds. Alternatively use a "medium" structure and many more passes until you achieve light spark.
4a. Set base angle with sand belt, one or two pass.
4b. Back to stone for a couple passes to clean up any hairs from previous belt sanding step
5. Optional - if you want a distinct structure, next is to dress the stone (blank) at its lowest dressing speed. Feed ski until all structure is removed (blanking).
5a. Next is to imprint final grind. Redress stone for ideal pattern, and make one pass only.
6. Process your side edges, and deburr base edge.
6a. Optional, You can run a file and an accurate base edge bevel guide to ensure a consistent base bevel. The back to step 6.
7. Post grind base conditioning and softening of non contact edges as preferred.
8. Wax, scrape, brush
Not sure what the belt size is, but there may be some good options for finishing. For example trizact, ceramic, cork, fibretex.
cheers
 

Wilhelmson

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This is how I would process a ski with that equipment. I'm not familiar with that particular machine, but I'm curious to see what the control panel looks like. I've personally owned a reichmann 300mm stone grinder, great machine.

1. Put a true bar on the ski and determine if it's base high, or base low.
2. If base low, make a few passes on the belt to achieve desired base bevel.
3. If base high, skip #2, and go straight to the stone.
4. To expedite flattening, dress the stone with a coarse structure, a handful of passes should suffice. You will have to redress stone to a less aggressive structure for final grinds. Alternatively use a "medium" structure and many more passes until you achieve light spark.
4a. Set base angle with sand belt, one or two pass.
4b. Back to stone for a couple passes to clean up any hairs from previous belt sanding step
5. Optional - if you want a distinct structure, next is to dress the stone (blank) at its lowest dressing speed. Feed ski until all structure is removed (blanking).
5a. Next is to imprint final grind. Redress stone for ideal pattern, and make one pass only.
6. Process your side edges, and deburr base edge.
6a. Optional, You can run a file and an accurate base edge bevel guide to ensure a consistent base bevel. The back to step 6.
7. Post grind base conditioning and softening of non contact edges as preferred.
8. Wax, scrape, brush
Not sure what the belt size is, but there may be some good options for finishing. For example trizact, ceramic, cork, fibretex.
cheers
Is 4a just a quicker way to get to 6a? Is it easy to set the base angle with the belt?
 
Thread Starter
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Mountain Lab

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Good question, I was always under the impression you cannot set a base angle with a belt but you have to do this manually?

Another question: if you would follow the above process, you need to redress the stone quite often even with one pair of ski's so doesn't this needlessly wear out the diamond (and stone potentially?)
 

Dwight

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You set base angle back to zero with a belt and/or stone. Then you set the base angle with what ever tools you have to do that.
 

Chenzo

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Is 4a just a quicker way to get to 6a? Is it easy to set the base angle with the belt?
Yes to first question.
Second question depends on your machine. Does it have a base bevel plate under the belt? I know some of the older Wintersteiger micros had removable bevel plates. Imo, stone grinding ski to flat, and reset base edge by hand would be my preferred method for race/frontside carvers - that is if you don't have access to a base edge processing machine - ie trim disc, htt etc.
 

Chenzo

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Good question, I was always under the impression you cannot set a base angle with a belt but you have to do this manually?

Another question: if you would follow the above process, you need to redress the stone quite often even with one pair of ski's so doesn't this needlessly wear out the diamond (and stone potentially?)
Some machines can set base angle, some can't. I did a quick search on this reichmann, but couldn't find any info on it.
Second question- yes the process does consume the stone/diamond. This is one of the reasons why "race grinds" are a more expensive service. Ideally, shops would run a batch (4 or so) of skis through each step.
 

Wilhelmson

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Some machines can set base angle, some can't. I did a quick search on this reichmann, but couldn't find any info on it.
Second question- yes the process does consume the stone/diamond. This is one of the reasons why "race grinds" are a more expensive service. Ideally, shops would run a batch (4 or so) of skis through each step.
Thats why I asked. It seems that even with the right setup it would take some experience.A good hand file is pretty quick anyways and less risky. The flattening part sounds easy except for maybe the camber and rocker which is like 70% of the ski.
 

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