Coaches out there...SL and GS technique critique requested

[bbbradley]

@bbbradley I would advice you to separate technique and tactics, when you are in a training course; focus on tactic development, what line, where to turn, distance to gates. You certainly need to think about technique too, but not focus. How to balance on your ski, creating angles, body separation etc. is best practiced outside the course. The idea is to master the technique outside the course and than bring it into the course ( and watch it fall a part )

Eventually, with enough outside the course practice, some of these things will stick. Last week's coaching was the 1st time I've had coaching in decades. I am seeing/feeling some differences, even if the video still shows plenty of work to be done.

My old ski coach used to say technically I had some issues, but I just "knew how to go fast" and it was always a struggle to take a step back to, ideally take 2 steps forward.

 

[Noodler]

Can you expand on that a bit?

Have you had your lateral stance alignment checked and setup by a boot fitter?

 

[bbbradley]

Have you had your lateral stance alignment checked and setup by a boot fitter?

Yes, when I bought the Raptors last season the bootfitter did the cuff alignment and also checked for canting with the sole plates. It was the sketchiest part of the fitting! Wearing ski boots up on a 4' platform standing on a slick piece of plastic. I'll take an injected race hill and sharp edges over that!

Edit - do you see something that suggests it needs adjustment? I am guessing skit boot setup indoors is like hitting golf balls in an indoor cage, it's similar, but once outside people frequently perform differently. It's possible the setup worked in the shop but doesn't work on the hill.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Yes, when I bought the Raptors last season the bootfitter did the cuff alignment and also checked for canting with the sole plates. It was the sketchiest part of the fitting! Wearing ski boots up on a 4' platform standing on a slick piece of plastic. I'll take an injected race hill and sharp edges over that!

Edit - do you see something that suggests it needs adjustment? I am guessing skit boot setup indoors is like hitting golf balls in an indoor cage, it's similar, but once outside people frequently perform differently. It's possible the setup worked in the shop but doesn't work on the hill.

Sent you a PM, just read through the comments and saw this, see my comment about unequal angles right/left footers

 

[bbbradley]

Sent you a PM, just read through the comments and saw this, see my comment about unequal angles right/left footers

Thanks! I saw this, but decided it was smart to "play the game I brought" this past weekend vs trying to change things. I have some stuff to work on. I do know after the GS training camp earlier this month, one arm was noticeably more bruised from gate impact than the other, it aligns with your comment about being stronger with one turn vs the other.

 

[slow-line-fast]

one arm was noticeably more bruised from gate impact than the other,

Ouch! Get the armor, it works

 

[JPL]

I hesitate to make equipment change recommendations not knowing any ones financial status, but if it won't hurt the wallet to bad dump the 30 meter skis. I would recommend getting Nastar/Cheater GS skis for 2 reasons. 1] easier tip engagement on poorly slipped courses, 2] you will see more technique carry over from your SL skis to your GS skis, easier transition from one event to the next.
SL critique, as you clear the gate step onto the uphill ski [soon to be your new downhill ski ] as quick as you can and roll it on edge, eliminate the flat spot between turns. Personally I like the knee action you have, in my opinion people that don't have some action like that struggle on rough courses.

 

[bbbradley]

I hesitate to make equipment change recommendations not knowing any ones financial status, but if it won't hurt the wallet to bad dump the 30 meter skis. I would recommend getting Nastar/Cheater GS skis for 2 reasons. 1] easier tip engagement on poorly slipped courses, 2] you will see more technique carry over from your SL skis to your GS skis, easier transition from one event to the next.

25m or 27m skis are on the shopping list for next season.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Transitions late which makes you jamb the skis. This is one of those faults almost everyone has except for the top skiers. In part what your couches suggested that you drive your skis vs ride your skis. Get aggressive early sets you up better for the next turn.

 

[bbbradley]

Transitions late which makes you jamb the skis. This is one of those faults almost everyone has except for the top skiers. In part what your couches suggested that you drive your skis vs ride your skis. Get aggressive early sets you up better for the next turn.

I have, weather permitting, 2x GS and 2x SL this weekend to test things out.

 

[Ivan]

25m or 27m skis are on the shopping list for next season.

I got 185/27 Dynastar GS skis instead of 188/30, also Dynastar, before the beginning of this season. While I'm still getting used to them (I haven't skied as much as I would want), I think I like them more and find them easier to ski

 

[ScotsSkier]

I got 185/27 Dynastar GS skis instead of 188/30, also Dynastar, before the beginning of this season. While I'm still getting used to them (I haven't skied as much as I would want), I think I like them more and find them easier to ski

Easier to ski doesnt necessarily translate to faster. Following some of the flawed logic above, it would be easier to ski GS on a slalom ski. I can assure you it is not faster….. and talking about a cheater- typically 17-18 m radius- again I can assure you it is not faster….

 

[Ivan]

Easier to ski doesnt necessarily translate to faster. Following some of the flawed logic above, it would be easier to ski GS on a slalom ski. I can assure you it is not faster….. and talking about a cheater- typically 17-18 m radius- again I can assure you it is not faster….

I totally agree with you. This is why I got a 27m ski and not a cheater ski I can certainly see why going for less than, say, 23-24m may be suboptimal. My comment was more about my own skill level and my ability to use these skis (even outside the race course). I just feel like 30m skis perhaps were an overkill, while 27m skis are probably less so.

On a separate note, though, our East Coast GS courses may be different from yours. Here is the footage of the Mid-Atlantic masters GS race at Montage that I filmed on my GoPro mounted on a tripod:

While my racing experience is very limited, this doesn't look anywhere close to a 30m GS course to me (and it's also very flat). In the masters training program at Hunt Hollow that I'm doing this year, the coach uses the Racetigers which are, I believe, 185/21 or something close to that, and no one uses 188/30 skis. But, of course, at the end of the day the problem is in the skier (myself), not in the skis

 

[bbbradley]

Easier to ski doesnt necessarily translate to faster. Following some of the flawed logic above, it would be easier to ski GS on a slalom ski. I can assure you it is not faster….. and talking about a cheater- typically 17-18 m radius- again I can assure you it is not faster….

My one data point on 30m vs 27m is from a GS two weeks ago, I did run 1 on 188/30 and run 2 on a friend's older Volkl 193/27, I gained time on the field in the 2nd run, though they may still have had some of his race winning pixie dust in them. I'm not giving up on 30m yet, just trying to ensure I have the right ski for the hill/course/pilot. I need a BSL to help with the testing. Tomorrow is a GS training day ahead of the races this weekend, but after being out last week a few days, I can't do two more days out.

 

[ScotsSkier]

I totally agree with you. This is why I got a 27m ski and not a cheater ski I can certainly see why going for less than, say, 23-24m may be suboptimal. My comment was more about my own skill level and my ability to use these skis (even outside the race course). I just feel like 30m skis perhaps were an overkill, while 27m skis are probably less so.

On a separate note, though, our East Coast GS courses may be different from yours. Here is the footage of the Mid-Atlantic masters GS race at Montage that I filmed on my GoPro mounted on a tripod:

While my racing experience is very limited, this doesn't look anywhere close to a 30m GS course to me (and it's also very flat). In the masters training program at Hunt Hollow that I'm doing this year, the coach uses the Racetigers which are, I believe, 185/21 or something close to that, and no one uses 188/30 skis. But, of course, at the end of the day the problem is in the skier (myself), not in the skis

Ivan, totally understood, to be clear, the 185/27 is not something I would classify as a “cheater” (or a nastar ) ski. It is a good option for masters and a lot of athletes are on it. When talking about cheaters I refer to the 17-19m ( nastar type) skis which are in most cases a big mistake for a normal sized masters racer. They are like a short-term sugar pill - with a nasty aftertaste - for new racers. they promote running straight at the gate rather than a more effective and ultimately faster line. These habits then need to be undone for the racer to get faster. (a bit like a golfer getting their handicap down to low 20 s then discovering they need to completely deconstruct and change their swing to get down in the teens). The cheaters also increase the risk of sudden hookup and potential injury.

wrt Masters GS course sets, the USSA masters specs are 23min/30m max. typically out here in the west most of us usually set in the 27ish m range. I can understand that on smaller hills some setters may go towards the lower end to get more gates in. Of course distance is only one element. How much offset/swing the setter puts on it also makes a big difference. 27 m with a lot of offset takes a lot more effort than 23 m almost down the fall-line! (And of course can also help to get more gates in - the distance spec is the distance gate to gate)

My one data point on 30m vs 27m is from a GS two weeks ago, I did run 1 on 188/30 and run 2 on a friend's older Volkl 193/27, I gained time on the field in the 2nd run, though they may still have had some of his race winning pixie dust in them. I'm not giving up on 30m yet, just trying to ensure I have the right ski for the hill/course/pilot. I need a BSL to help with the testing. Tomorrow is a GS training day ahead of the races this weekend, but after being out last week a few days, I can't do two more days out.

bill, I suspect you will find that the 193/27 if you measured it is actually >30. Most of that generation of skis were around the 30m mark. (I can remember having 2 pairs of Fischer 183 Gs, one marked >23 and one marked >27- and both had exactly the same dimensions! )

anyway, long winded answer. Short version, the 27 m ski is a good masters option and certainly not a cheater. The 25 m ski also works well. Skied well the 30 m ski does have more potential and top end but I totally understand it is not for everyone and does reward good technique. ( full disclosur, while I like and ski the 30 m ski, I have gone to races out of Region where with different sets I have struggled more than I should on it and have felt I should get a 25/27 pair to have as an option - but then I am also 67 y/o)

but, as a masters coach, I would not in most circumstances be putting male athletes on a 17-19 GS cheater if they want to make progress and be competitive

 

[JPL]

The ski radius debate always gets heated. The videos posted don't look like WC course sets, I'm sure some Western Masters races are big time long and steep courses, but mostly what I have seen around here[mid west] are Naster sets with a delay gate. You are much better off with a length appropriate ski in the 19m to 21m range [+ or- a little]. The " then a SL ski should be faster" counter point doesn't hold water, first off length is way off. Also SL skis react much differently than GS skis. The more common problem that you might be able to attribute to to short a radius ski is over turning, people going to straight I would attribute to just bad tactics.
Match your skis to the terrain you generally are on, your skill level, and how much time you are going to be able to work on improvements. Over powering yourself with WC type equipment might make you quit before you get better. These comments aren't meant for the guys who are already setting the world on fire or who have alot of time and access to practice courses.

 

[Swede]

U16:s ski on 25+ skis, so no need to be on the WC to appreciate a longer r in GS. Ambition is def. a decider for ”mature” athletes, so it’s not a clear cut case. However, if your long term aim is to ski with a current (and proper) racing technique—and be as fast as possible—do not get a short radius (less than 23 m) master ski. Get a nice flexing FIS ski, U16, Womens or Mens, depending on, and learn how to bend it. For instant gratification and outside the GS course … other rules may apply.

 

[bbbradley]

2 GS races this weekend to see how the 30m talents are progressing. If I do replace these, or add to the race ski collection, 25m will be the most aggressive I'd go, no way I'm touching anything in the low 20's or teens. I really want to focus on technique to make the 30s sing.

 

[SlapChop]

I know I have some racing skills but still plenty of room to improve. I'd love to get additional feedback from the coaches (both legit and coach commando ) on these two videos.

Link 1 -
This is from day 2 of SL training (day 3 on snow for me this year and day 2 on these skis). I tend to come up between turns versus coming forward.

Link 2 -
Day 2 of GS training, the brushes were set by one of the coaches (~20pt FIS skier( and the center brush is his line. I don't ski the same line as he does, and when I see them vs my line I course correct...to my detriment. I am also struggling to get comfortable with 188/30m skis. I am getting better, but still feel I am always a half step behind.

The hill is pretty flat, but it is what it is.

My two cents mostly focused on video 1 (video 2 looks to be more of a case of very little speed for a big ski):

Lots of good! The intent and basic movement are all there. You had good rhythm and you were moving through each turn. Quiet upper body and your look confident. I don't think it would take a huge amount of drills in and out of the course to see real progress.

I'll break what I see down into tactics and technique (Generally I rarely do technique work with athletes in a course, that is reserved for free skiing, in course is mostly tactics/confidence etc):

Tactics - You should aim to ski a higher line, currently you are driving really straight at the gates, and a number of your turns are being completed in the belly under the gate due to having such a straight line. This in turn is causing jamming of the ski and denying you the ability to keep accelerating through each turn. Ask if your coaches will either use dye or brushies in the course and set them above each gate to give you a cue for when you should be on your new edge and starting the turn early (ideally you ski around the dye/brushies, forcing you into a higher line and generally a rounder turn).

Another cue for in the course - once you feel the slap of the plastic you should be moving, not necessarily releasing your old edge, but moving your hips forward and then then transitioning to that new edge higher and around where they place the dye/brush. You do this more or less already, but it is a good cue to reinforce in your mind, especially when brushies/dye/other distractions are added to the course.

The other tactical cue I would work towards is to aim to look at least one gate ahead and keep your head/upper body inside the corridor - ie, from your perspective, as you look down the course you should be looking down the middle of the corridor and trying not to focus on the next turning gate, but the one after it. This is usually a cue you need to run through in your head, it helps to watch some of the great POV footage out there of racers going through a course and visualize along with them. Something you can do from the comfort of your own home. Large part of gaining rhythm in a course is the mental acclimatization needed to be thinking ahead as best as possible instead of merely reacting to the next thing in front of you.

This is a half decent video you can use to work the visualization aspect.


Technique - You are standing too tall, and this is stealing from your ability to angulate properly. As you incline to put the skies on edge you aren't able to angulate back over them to maintain proper pressure on the outside ski, and you can see it gets away from you in a number of the turns, along with the late pressure on your new ski you aren't giving it enough of a chance to carve around the turns.

Some angulation drills to practice in free ski:

Hand on hip:
Outrigger/Pole Drag:
One drill to promote the hips moving forward:

Swiss Drill:
Norwegian drill helps with this too:
Anyway, just some thoughts and ideas. Overall the fundamentals are there, and a number of your turns look good (seems like you have a bias for your right leg/left turns).

As has been said, gym time always helps as well.

Ultimately you want to aim to do two things - ski a higher line with rounder turns, and use your entire body's full range of motion so you can those skis running cleaner and faster! Great to see you out in gates! Keep it up!

 

[Tony S]

video 2 looks to be more of a case of very little speed for a big ski

Consistent comments on this. The patience required even with great technique looks like it would be huge. Work on the turns somewhere with more pitch, to learn how that ski works, and then bring it back to the gates. Are other skiers on this same exact course bending their similar skis successfully and cleanly?