The Never-Ending Peak By Bode Miller Skis Discussion Thread

[cantunamunch]

I don't think many here necessarily have a problem with Elan. I think the issue comes from the typical Bode spin that seems to claim these skis are 100% his design and completely diminishes any ties to Elan. A better marketing message might have been something along the lines of "Bode's decades of ski testing experience in collaboration with some of the best ski engineers in the world".

Ya know, if we take ^that and combine it with

. When it comes to on-piste skis, this is my biggest complain with Elan... they "turned off" their race service some 10 years ago (their ski cross skis are not done in race department) and they have no racers to develop ski. With this, it's hard to compete with Head, Rossignol, Fischer or Atomic, who are testing new things daily. Sure they test for race conditions, but sooner or later that stuff trickles down to recreational skis too.

It kinda puts an interesting slant on things, no?

 

[fatbob]

I'm pretty sceptical of this project for a number of reasons, but if this is a DTC job [not something I am convinced will work] then perhaps a different set of abilities is needed to a normal hardgoods marketer.

The way I've seen DTC work in outdoor is by being 100% authentic and accessible to the consumer. Think J skis.

I see resort (digital) marketing as insta/twitter bombing around events or good weather patterns plus for PaliPine fighting a bunch of PR war against save Oly Valley/pro gondi/pro waterpark/anti carparking/anti locals/rebranding. They seem to have done the Pali thing well, the rest, obvious bias declared, not so much.

Now I think a good "social" person can feed a stream of stoke for a brand but she'll need content to work with and that can only come from Bode and needs to be current and authentic. Remember they are asking top retail prices for an untried product that even the most naive knows comes with increased margin by cutting out the ditributors/retailers.

 

[Philpug]

From what I see, the upcoming collection is to get the brand going and to create some momentum for Peak. The eventual intent is to bring production to Bozeman and produce there. Bode is working on a ski building process that is a different direction that what it currently being done. We will see.

 

[skipress]

The way I've seen DTC work in outdoor is by being 100% authentic and accessible to the consumer. Think J skis.

I see resort (digital) marketing as insta/twitter bombing around events or good weather patterns plus for PaliPine fighting a bunch of PR war against save Oly Valley/pro gondi/pro waterpark/anti carparking/anti locals/rebranding. They seem to have done the Pali thing well, the rest, obvious bias declared, not so much.

Now I think a good "social" person can feed a stream of stoke for a brand but she'll need content to work with and that can only come from Bode and needs to be current and authentic. Remember they are asking top retail prices for an untried product that even the most naive knows comes with increased margin by cutting out the ditributors/retailers.

It's a tough ask and in part depends on how much weight brand Bode carries. Assume that this forum is aficionado - outside of this loop how many folks think I'll buy that Bode Miller ski despite it being pretty expensive over that [say] Head from my local ski store where I know the guys and they did my boots too. Bode must know something the others don't.

You're needing public ski tests, blazing hot reviews in magazine ski tests and so on. Instagram pics of Bode saying 'wow these Peak skis are the best ever' are not going to convert into many sales.

Now you can point to brands like Dodge and say they seem to do ok DTC but they are a product:

• Bespoke for 'you'
• Observably 'different'

Peak is neither, it just looks like a ski and tricks such as the keyhole [is that it, BTW the Crosson logo looks kind of like a keyhole, juts sayin;] lurks deep inside.

It might be a different story where Phil says

Bode is working on a ski building process that is a different direction that what it currently being done. We will see.

I suppose the other question that we may not know the answer to is what does success look like? Is the plan to be a high margin midi if not microbrand or to be K2.

Now this might have been covered in this thread - if so hands up, but. Are these sold flat top or with a binding?

If the latter and it's DTC you're confronted with visiting your favorite ski shop and asking for an adjustment/check etc and I can't imagine many retailers taking that route without presenting a heart-warming bill at the end of it.

 

[fatbob]

@skipress fair comment. No idea what success looks like. Nor at this stage I guess do Bode and Wirth. In fact I'm sure there is part of the Bode definition that sees them totally blow away a bunch of mainstream ski brands because of the sheer evident genius of his engineering and tech ideas. I can see them being a hit here and in other ski geeky high wallet low boredom threshold communities - I mean haven't we already seen people here saying they were willing to lay down $1,000 unseen but then the problem is these people are fickle and flavour of the season hops around from Kastle to Blossom to Renoun to Stockli to Augment to .......

If what we understand about Bode's PE ventures is true and we guess what Wirth has trousered from Alterra then it doesn't seem it's really about money for either of them. So what is it? Ego? Acclaim? "Beating" the status quo? Putting out a solid product with integrity so his name continues to mean something in skiing?

 

[skipress]

@skipress fair comment. No idea what success looks like. Nor at this stage I guess do Bode and Wirth. In fact I'm sure there is part of the Bode definition that sees them totally blow away a bunch of mainstream ski brands because of the sheer evident genius of his engineering and tech ideas. I can see them being a hit here and in other ski geeky high wallet low boredom threshold communities - I mean haven't we already seen people here saying they were willing to lay down $1,000 unseen but then the problem is these people are fickle and flavour of the season hops around from Kastle to Blossom to Renoun to Stockli to Augment to .......

If what we understand about Bode's PE ventures is true and we guess what Wirth has trousered from Alterra then it doesn't seem it's really about money for either of them. So what is it? Ego? Acclaim? "Beating" the status quo? Putting out a solid product with integrity so his name continues to mean something in skiing?

On this

In fact I'm sure there is part of the Bode definition that sees them totally blow away a bunch of mainstream ski brands because of the sheer evident genius of his engineering and tech ideas.

he has already, I know it is more nuanced than this but his 'K2 four race' showed that he [and yes perhaps other folks supporting] could use tech to 'change a sport' - I use it as an example of thinking outside the box on coaching courses.

Wirth is obviously comfortable, whether Bode is set for life I don't know.

 

[otto]

This would be a great place for someone out here that understands how investors or venture capitalists look at the whole picture before putting any funding into a project. I do not have a horse in this race, so I am just commenting to stir the conversation. As a brick and mortar retailer it is up to our business to figure out how to purchase, merchandise, promote, sell through, and service the products that we stock and service to be profitable. Oh, and it is a good idea to pay our bills on time and in full. In some basic way starting a new ski brand takes the same process with the difference being instead of acquiring the product from a supplier, they have to estimate what the market can eat of this brand and it's offerings, acquire the raw materials and build said product, and deliver to the DTC market.

When you are starting out on a winter sports entrepreneurial venture, it is more difficult and complicated in some ways than bringing an electronic device that has big consumer possibilities and could be sold year around to a world wide market. In the winter sports business you are limited by the number of skiers that purchase new equipment each year, the countries in which you can distribute, and complexities of where the product is produced versus where you are shipping it direct to the consumer.

Also with any start-up selling product direct to the consumer during the early phases of development all expenses are up front without any money passing through the bank account. When you build the organization with a big management expense, like CEO, CIO, Marketing Manager, before you have received a dime from the market, it certainly complicates either the cash flow to pay the upfront costs to the company that is producing your skis, or the cash needed to build your own facility in Montana. These efforts would be a shell game of where any capitol can be spent. Lets say that you have the funding to build a 10,000 square foot factory and headquarters, and have the funds to develop or purchase the fixed costs inside the factory, like ski presses, core milling tools, machine shop for customizing your tooling, finishing machinery purchased from one of the existing suppliers like Wintersteiger, Montana, Reichman, etc. Ok so all that stuff is done and paid for or is pieced together with debt, now you have to acquire the material costs from suppliers of cores, base material, fiberglass, carbon fiber, edge material, etc, etc, etc. On top of the out of range management costs, who is going to sit in the office and communicate with the consumer, who will box and ship the product, where will the money come from to cover shipping costs, and on and on. I am relatively sure of the positions announced so far, that none of those individuals will have anything to do with the day to day needs of getting skis to land on customers doorsteps. Best guess the next "manager" hired at the big salary needs to be COO.

Ok now that we have identified that there are bigly upfront expenses, which are way beyond what a seasonal start-up can absorb, let's give the product high marks and guesstimate that they can sell 2,000 skis worldwide in the first season, which is amazingly generous if you could see the real numbers sold from Bomber or Crosson. Now this is where it would be nice to have someone with some financial expertise to take over this discussion and predict what these skis might cost landed to the shipping facility in Montana, and what the gross numbers of sales would be against a top heavy management/ownership team and the day to day expenses to keep the lights on and the doors open.

We cannot know what the motivation is behind this move, or where the money is coming from. Based on other projects that Andy and Bode are tied in on like Granby Ski Area, Indoor Ski Centers across the USA, a ski academy, it looks to me that there must be a fairy godfather hanging their hat on these two guys to perform miracles in multiple endeavors.

 

[Jerez]

Making an association with Ski Granby Ranch may be a very good move. There is a huge number of skiers and potential skiers in the greater Grand County area who either can't afford WP anymore or who don't like the crowds, which has driven growth at SGR. Development around there has skyrocketed too. And lots of kids, for whom SGR is ideal. And maybe friendlier to ski racer training too.

 

[SBrown]

This would be a great place for someone out here that understands how investors or venture capitalists look at the whole picture before putting any funding into a project. I do not have a horse in this race, so I am just commenting to stir the conversation. As a brick and mortar retailer it is up to our business to figure out how to purchase, merchandise, promote, sell through, and service the products that we stock and service to be profitable. Oh, and it is a good idea to pay our bills on time and in full. In some basic way starting a new ski brand takes the same process with the difference being instead of acquiring the product from a supplier, they have to estimate what the market can eat of this brand and it's offerings, acquire the raw materials and build said product, and deliver to the DTC market.

When you are starting out on a winter sports entrepreneurial venture, it is more difficult and complicated in some ways than bringing an electronic device that has big consumer possibilities and could be sold year around to a world wide market. In the winter sports business you are limited by the number of skiers that purchase new equipment each year, the countries in which you can distribute, and complexities of where the product is produced versus where you are shipping it direct to the consumer.

Also with any start-up selling product direct to the consumer during the early phases of development all expenses are up front without any money passing through the bank account. When you build the organization with a big management expense, like CEO, CIO, Marketing Manager, before you have received a dime from the market, it certainly complicates either the cash flow to pay the upfront costs to the company that is producing your skis, or the cash needed to build your own facility in Montana. These efforts would be a shell game of where any capitol can be spent. Lets say that you have the funding to build a 10,000 square foot factory and headquarters, and have the funds to develop or purchase the fixed costs inside the factory, like ski presses, core milling tools, machine shop for customizing your tooling, finishing machinery purchased from one of the existing suppliers like Wintersteiger, Montana, Reichman, etc. Ok so all that stuff is done and paid for or is pieced together with debt, now you have to acquire the material costs from suppliers of cores, base material, fiberglass, carbon fiber, edge material, etc, etc, etc. On top of the out of range management costs, who is going to sit in the office and communicate with the consumer, who will box and ship the product, where will the money come from to cover shipping costs, and on and on. I am relatively sure of the positions announced so far, that none of those individuals will have anything to do with the day to day needs of getting skis to land on customers doorsteps. Best guess the next "manager" hired at the big salary needs to be COO.

Ok now that we have identified that there are bigly upfront expenses, which are way beyond what a seasonal start-up can absorb, let's give the product high marks and guesstimate that they can sell 2,000 skis worldwide in the first season, which is amazingly generous if you could see the real numbers sold from Bomber or Crosson. Now this is where it would be nice to have someone with some financial expertise to take over this discussion and predict what these skis might cost landed to the shipping facility in Montana, and what the gross numbers of sales would be against a top heavy management/ownership team and the day to day expenses to keep the lights on and the doors open.

We cannot know what the motivation is behind this move, or where the money is coming from. Based on other projects that Andy and Bode are tied in on like Granby Ski Area, Indoor Ski Centers across the USA, a ski academy, it looks to me that there must be a fairy godfather hanging their hat on these two guys to perform miracles in multiple endeavors.

I can tell you that he did a presentation at Young Presidents right before the launch.

 

[skipress]

This would be a great place for someone out here that understands how investors or venture capitalists look at the whole picture before putting any funding into a project. I do not have a horse in this race, so I am just commenting to stir the conversation. As a brick and mortar retailer it is up to our business to figure out how to purchase, merchandise, promote, sell through, and service the products that we stock and service to be profitable. Oh, and it is a good idea to pay our bills on time and in full. In some basic way starting a new ski brand takes the same process with the difference being instead of acquiring the product from a supplier, they have to estimate what the market can eat of this brand and it's offerings, acquire the raw materials and build said product, and deliver to the DTC market.

When you are starting out on a winter sports entrepreneurial venture, it is more difficult and complicated in some ways than bringing an electronic device that has big consumer possibilities and could be sold year around to a world wide market. In the winter sports business you are limited by the number of skiers that purchase new equipment each year, the countries in which you can distribute, and complexities of where the product is produced versus where you are shipping it direct to the consumer.

Also with any start-up selling product direct to the consumer during the early phases of development all expenses are up front without any money passing through the bank account. When you build the organization with a big management expense, like CEO, CIO, Marketing Manager, before you have received a dime from the market, it certainly complicates either the cash flow to pay the upfront costs to the company that is producing your skis, or the cash needed to build your own facility in Montana. These efforts would be a shell game of where any capitol can be spent. Lets say that you have the funding to build a 10,000 square foot factory and headquarters, and have the funds to develop or purchase the fixed costs inside the factory, like ski presses, core milling tools, machine shop for customizing your tooling, finishing machinery purchased from one of the existing suppliers like Wintersteiger, Montana, Reichman, etc. Ok so all that stuff is done and paid for or is pieced together with debt, now you have to acquire the material costs from suppliers of cores, base material, fiberglass, carbon fiber, edge material, etc, etc, etc. On top of the out of range management costs, who is going to sit in the office and communicate with the consumer, who will box and ship the product, where will the money come from to cover shipping costs, and on and on. I am relatively sure of the positions announced so far, that none of those individuals will have anything to do with the day to day needs of getting skis to land on customers doorsteps. Best guess the next "manager" hired at the big salary needs to be COO.

Ok now that we have identified that there are bigly upfront expenses, which are way beyond what a seasonal start-up can absorb, let's give the product high marks and guesstimate that they can sell 2,000 skis worldwide in the first season, which is amazingly generous if you could see the real numbers sold from Bomber or Crosson. Now this is where it would be nice to have someone with some financial expertise to take over this discussion and predict what these skis might cost landed to the shipping facility in Montana, and what the gross numbers of sales would be against a top heavy management/ownership team and the day to day expenses to keep the lights on and the doors open.

We cannot know what the motivation is behind this move, or where the money is coming from. Based on other projects that Andy and Bode are tied in on like Granby Ski Area, Indoor Ski Centers across the USA, a ski academy, it looks to me that there must be a fairy godfather hanging their hat on these two guys to perform miracles in multiple endeavors.

All good points Otto and why a DTC model is scary risky. B2B you can survive with a comparatively small rear of house with subcontracted production:

• Forward orders so you can predict demand and production requirements [shop 'X' orders 200 pairs, length breakdown 1,2,2,1 and so on]. Perhaps you order a quantity of extra stock for re orders but if you do you have a baseline for what's sold. Model x is the clear big seller. Send your order to Elan and arrange payment terms
• There's the possibility of direct to dealer shipment from the factory [fiddly and you might need a third party to handle it but unless you're selling a lot of skis it's cheaper than a big warehouse and staff]
• Better cashflow - you've sold 'em, shipped 'em, sure you ve paid for them but there a good chance you can borrow against the invoice to ease your cashflow

DTC you have to make a prediction of how many will sell, what models, what sizes, buy em and stick em in a building. You then wait for someone to buy a pair, you need staff to ship then and to pay for the shipping ... for every sale, every time. High costs for customer acquisition and supply [and limited repeat business, whereas if Bloggs Sports sells out they'll be back for twice as many next time].

DTC you have big, scary upfront and operating expenses so you need a lot of cash in the bank to make that fly [and a crystal ball to make sure you've picked right].

There is the variable put forward by Phil - if Bode knows how to build a better mousetrap - and that would be quality [performance] of product, probably a tangible 'visible' differentiator and perhaps most helpfully a cost saving [say a magic material or tech that allows you to make an injection molded ski for $1 a pair that skis like a $1000 a pair ski] then big factories and investment might make sense but that's looking at 5 -10 year paybacks.

This is a bit of an overlap with the Kaestle discussion - hard to break into the market and get big sales, they're also using [mainly] contracted production* but they're going B2B because the numbers are there. I'm not privy to Bode & AW's worth but I suspect [unless they have Bill Gates backing them] the Czechs have deeper pockets.

*Directly for the boots from Roxa, more of a debate on many of the skis as they now also have Sporten in house

 

[fatbob]

I think DTC works when you are essentially a small brand who can effectively dropship everything from a third party or you have big boy scale. But even then there's a reason not everyone is buying their laundry detergent direct from P&G. Otherwise in the early years you're kinda shooting blind, modest production runs that you can fund and a "when it's gone it's gone" attitude to stock. Plus a close enough ops person that can deal with warranty and reverse supply chain issues. There's an intrinsic problem in skiing in that there isn't a long enough selling period to staff up properly but probably a mad 3-4 months when everyone needs to be hard at it.

I can't believe anyone in VC is throwing money at this other than as a hobby/vanity/stardust project - the chances of multiple payback are so low.

 

[cantunamunch]

Bode is working on a ski building process that is a different direction that what it currently being done. We will see.

Are we meant to be getting Greg Lemondy vibes here? I mean, that project had some juicy uni-level research vibes.

I can't believe anyone in VC is throwing money at this other than as a hobby/vanity/stardust project - the chances of multiple payback are so low.

Astroturfing growth?

 

[Swiss Toni]

Ok now that we have identified that there are bigly upfront expenses, which are way beyond what a seasonal start-up can absorb, let's give the product high marks and guesstimate that they can sell 2,000 skis worldwide in the first season, which is amazingly generous if you could see the real numbers sold from Bomber or Crosson.

You can get some idea of Bomber’s numbers by looking at the Bill of Lading data and the company returns. In recent years Bomber LLC has received one shipment of skis from Bomber Fabbrica Italiana Sci weighing 1085 kg each November. In 2019 the manufacturing arm of the business had a turnover 560,010 euros and lost 175,830 euros. Bomber Fabbrica Italiana Sci was bought from the liquidator of CO.H.EN ski, it was fully equipped and had an existing product line, so startup costs are likely to have been minimal.

 

[cantunamunch]

1085 kg is what - 200 pairs? They lost something on the order of 440 euros per ski.

 

[fatbob]

Astroturfing growth?

Maybe astroturfing innovation? There's plenty koolaid to be slurped in the industry.

 

[cantunamunch]

Maybe astroturfing innovation? There's plenty koolaid to be slurped in the industry.

I see your point, though that steers it back to the vanity/stardust sector.

 

[skipress]

I think DTC works when you are essentially a small brand who can effectively dropship everything from a third party or you have big boy scale. But even then there's a reason not everyone is buying their laundry detergent direct from P&G. Otherwise in the early years you're kinda shooting blind, modest production runs that you can fund and a "when it's gone it's gone" attitude to stock. Plus a close enough ops person that can deal with warranty and reverse supply chain issues. There's an intrinsic problem in skiing in that there isn't a long enough selling period to staff up properly but probably a mad 3-4 months when everyone needs to be hard at it.

I can't believe anyone in VC is throwing money at this other than as a hobby/vanity/stardust project - the chances of multiple payback are so low.

That s where B2B and drop ships of say 100 pairs to dealers works more easily, DTC on 'first world wages', taping skis into boxes a pair at a time... over three months... difficult

You can get some idea of Bomber’s numbers by looking at the Bill of Lading data and the company returns. In recent years Bomber LLC has received one shipment of skis from Bomber Fabbrica Italiana Sci weighing 1085 kg each November. In 2019 the manufacturing arm of the business had a turnover 560,010 euros and lost 175,830 euros. Bomber Fabbrica Italiana Sci was bought from the liquidator of CO.H.EN ski, it was fully equipped and had an existing product line, so startup costs are likely to have been minimal.

That s a useful and potentially terrifying set of numbers. Bode seems to be making more of a design pitch for these than Bomber, but it's pretty nuanced when both have his face in the wrapper are unless you are a bit of a ski nerd [hands up]. They're both Bode skis.

I see your point, though that steers it back to the vanity/stardust sector.

I remember when Volant started and I did a factory visit. I recall the list of investors [well the ones I was told were investors] being stellar, but also guys where given their wealth it could have been vanity or a punt $250k... could spend that on a weekend away, why not. They'll send me some nice skis and I'll meet some famous skiers and ski with em.

Equally - Phil, can you hint more. Does Peak 2023-24 have something which is not just a better but 'different' mousetrap [not just a keyhole thing somewhere in the ski]? If that s the case anything's possible

 

[Philpug]

Equally - Phil, can you hint more.

Infortunately, I cannot.

 

[cantunamunch]

Equally - Phil, can you hint more. Does Peak 2023-24 have something which is not just a better but 'different' mousetrap [not just a keyhole thing somewhere in the ski]? If that s the case anything's possible

*has a sudden image of a mousetrap that's a ski that's a Mexican cowboy/tribal boot*

 

[skipress]

*has a sudden image of a mousetrap that's a ski that's a Mexican cowboy/tribal boot*

Mousetrap on a ski = pin binding