Moguls - tips to target

[geepers]

Good observation. And the only way the tails can pivot there is if she is absorbed and pressuring the front of the skis and starting to change directions so the tails can break free.

Think we're talking about different phases of the turn.

I thought this video was interesting. Shows former Olympian John Smart skiing the olympic mogul course.


Initially starts slow with the skis perpendicular to the slope for couple turns, then gets pointed mostly downhill and maintains speed control. He starts to skim toward the end without a lot of absorption and speeds up.

Nicely done. Bet it helps to have marshmallow conditions. That's the type of conditions I'd have a go at keeping the skis pointing downhill. Of course the pitch may be above my pay grade.

This cute, tough as nails, thin as a twig (but could probably break us like twigs) direct line mogul skier:


says that this type of angulation in direct line mogul skiing is incorrect, i.e., denominated by an "X":
View attachment 130509

Tim, I take it you mean this:

The Step Up Bump crew have a lot of drills for active pivoting of the skis.

And for pivoting around the tips.

(That last one looks exhausting...)


Probably better to view Chuck Martin (the angulated guy in the fawn ski suit) in motion. Just after 8:00 ("....when it gets steeper and the line gets funky..."

 

[Rod9301]

Think we're talking about different phases of the turn.



Nicely done. Bet it helps to have marshmallow conditions. That's the type of conditions I'd have a go at keeping the skis pointing downhill. Of course the pitch may be above my pay grade.



Tim, I take it you mean this:
View attachment 130516

The Step Up Bump crew have a lot of drills for active pivoting of the skis.

And for pivoting around the tips.

(That last one looks exhausting...)


Probably better to view Chuck Martin (the angulated guy in the fawn ski suit) in motion. Just after 8:00 ("....when it gets steeper and the line gets funky..."

Brown pants does it wrong. He extends at transition instead of flexing.
Can't ski bumps like this, at least well.

 

[recbumper]

A couple of thoughts, for whatever they're worth..

>The Step Up Bump crew have a lot of drills for active pivoting of the skis.

Most likely the 1st vid clip shown above ^^ might more accurately be called Passive pivoting, rather than active. The coaching instruction that produces the type of ski movement shown above ^^ is typically along the lines of "Stand on your new ski & boot tongue Early & roll knees for edge above fall line. Avoid rotary motion input. Just make sure you're really standing on it. The ski will go around all by itself. <after it went around, you can add a small amount of foot steer if necessary to pick a target on the next bump>." A major goal to get turns that look like that is to not be active <at least as coached by a number of folks at Whistler camps>



> And for pivoting around the tips.
(3rd & 4th clips)
To me these look like a filmed gentle/beginner version of the KMS Low-To-High drill. Most likely it's not about pivoting around the tips, it's more about getting the hips Outward from the hill. It's just hard to see that in the front camera angle - way better to see this drill from a side angle.
The fact that the skis then happen to get on their tips a lot is a secondary, passive consequence of the hip projection. It's a good consequence! but it's just secondary, not the point of the action.

<I could be totally wrong - I have no idea what the Japanese captions are saying there. But in terms of the logical freestyle-type coaching progression, at least as it has been taught to us at camps - this looks to a degree like the low-high drill and would be in the right place in the learning sequence.
Also then the lady in blue looks like she may be doing a somewhat higher amplitude version of the low-high drill. If so it's not as hard as it looks cause it's mostly just lifting hips forward & outward, not jumping >


> Brown pants does it wrong. He extends at transition instead of flexing.
Can't ski bumps like this, at least well.

..My guess is prob this may be a version of the low-to-high drill, when you do it on Flats that's what it looks like. When you do it in bumps it's wicked effective. Projecting the hips outward at the right moment (about halfway up the bump face) gives beautiful & massive power onto your New Downhill Edge (new inside edge)

[KMS Low to High: Projection of center forward into top of turn.

Athlete begins in a crouched position traversing fall line preparing for a mid radius turn. When athlete begins turn, they lift stance projecting center of mass into outside shin. The weight of the center drives through turn. When turn is completed, athlete returns to crouched position traversing fall line. Focus in squaring in order to insure that weight is driven to individual foot.

What are we looking to achieve: Understanding bodyweight moves into top of turn and drives turn with weighted foot.

Common Mistake: Athletes may mistake the low to high as an up and down drill. The drill is a projection of weight from back to front.]

[https://www.killingtonmountainschool.org/mdrills]

 

[Chris V.]

My guess is prob this may be a version of the low-to-high drill, when you do it on Flats that's what it looks like. When you do it in bumps it's wicked effective. Projecting the hips outward at the right moment (about halfway up the bump face) gives beautiful & massive power onto your New Downhill Edge (new inside edge)

Playing with this today. Yeah. Money!

 

[geepers]

A couple of thoughts, for whatever they're worth..

>The Step Up Bump crew have a lot of drills for active pivoting of the skis.

Most likely the 1st vid clip shown above ^^ might more accurately be called Passive pivoting, rather than active. The coaching instruction that produces the type of ski movement shown above ^^ is typically along the lines of "Stand on your new ski & boot tongue Early & roll knees for edge above fall line. Avoid rotary motion input. Just make sure you're really standing on it. The ski will go around all by itself. <after it went around, you can add a small amount of foot steer if necessary to pick a target on the next bump>." A major goal to get turns that look like that is to not be active <at least as coached by a number of folks at Whistler camps>



> And for pivoting around the tips.
(3rd & 4th clips)
To me these look like a filmed gentle/beginner version of the KMS Low-To-High drill. Most likely it's not about pivoting around the tips, it's more about getting the hips Outward from the hill. It's just hard to see that in the front camera angle - way better to see this drill from a side angle.
The fact that the skis then happen to get on their tips a lot is a secondary, passive consequence of the hip projection. It's a good consequence! but it's just secondary, not the point of the action.

<I could be totally wrong - I have no idea what the Japanese captions are saying there. But in terms of the logical freestyle-type coaching progression, at least as it has been taught to us at camps - this looks to a degree like the low-high drill and would be in the right place in the learning sequence.
Also then the lady in blue looks like she may be doing a somewhat higher amplitude version of the low-high drill. If so it's not as hard as it looks cause it's mostly just lifting hips forward & outward, not jumping >


> Brown pants does it wrong. He extends at transition instead of flexing.
Can't ski bumps like this, at least well.

..My guess is prob this may be a version of the low-to-high drill, when you do it on Flats that's what it looks like. When you do it in bumps it's wicked effective. Projecting the hips outward at the right moment (about halfway up the bump face) gives beautiful & massive power onto your New Downhill Edge (new inside edge)

[KMS Low to High: Projection of center forward into top of turn.

Athlete begins in a crouched position traversing fall line preparing for a mid radius turn. When athlete begins turn, they lift stance projecting center of mass into outside shin. The weight of the center drives through turn. When turn is completed, athlete returns to crouched position traversing fall line. Focus in squaring in order to insure that weight is driven to individual foot.

What are we looking to achieve: Understanding bodyweight moves into top of turn and drives turn with weighted foot.

Common Mistake: Athletes may mistake the low to high as an up and down drill. The drill is a projection of weight from back to front.]

[https://www.killingtonmountainschool.org/mdrills]

Not too sure on this active vs passive pivoting thing. Slightly earlier (3 days) Step Up Bumps vid where the pivoting progression (with some same drills) is shown under the heading "Pivot Turn".


It's a problem trying to infer too much from these foreign language vids without understanding all the nuances. One thing is sure - the extension is about getting at least as forward as perpendicular to the pitch. But that's the same for a good quality extension pivot slip as per CSIA.

The drill progression into the bumps... looks active pivoting to me.

The thing is that this is a drill progression. Some people will progress through more drills to keep the skis more in the fall line more of the time. And some - due to a whole heap of factors - may choose to get off the improvement path right there.

Brown pants does it wrong. He extends at transition instead of flexing.
Can't ski bumps like this, at least well.

Then again maybe brown pants got the point of that drill and went on to get the benefit of this one.

Drills with extensions or not, have a feeling this guy may know how to ski a few bumps...

 

[recbumper]

> Not too sure on this active vs passive pivoting thing. Slightly earlier (3 days) Step Up Bumps vid where the pivoting progression (with some same drills) is shown under the heading "Pivot Turn".

Yep, these are definitely pivots. The question from the skier's point of view is to some extent, what action/inputs should the skier make to result in these types of pivots. And from the writer's point of view, just kindof what wordchoice may be helpful/useful if one wants to gradually develop some type of shared descriptions/terminology for slow words overlaid on a fast sport. The words are maybe helpful cause they can help surface and distill out some basic re-usable Concepts <Not that that is necessary, only if fun>

A lot of the actions that are coached to produce these pivots tend to focus on shifting weight [plus the associated pressure on the boot-tongue], rolling knees to get the skis on edge -- and after that doing as little as possible [cause the skis will do it for you] [actually there is one def active part which is the Constant Pull but that goes without saying]. Specifically, the coaching recommendations are typically [after the weightshift+kneeroll] to be very calm & quiet, and to avoid any intentional rotary motion of the skis and avoid pushing the feet or throwing the tails [just Pull back]. Thus the suggested wordchoice of Passive...?


Like <at least in my interpretation> what I see in the lady in blue GIF is her riding up the roller edged on the Old ski, then getting a nice clear, clean weightshift onto the New Ski about 6" before the crest, knee rolling to get New Edge, and then passively riding down the backside of the roller. What's bringing the ski around is her weight on the boot-tongue, and the ski itself coming around cause of the Edge <just my interpretation of what may be happening there fwiw> Then if you take that quiet, passive ride down the backside from the rollers into the moguls, you get turns like Perrine Laffont's & Ben Cavet's <per Glenn Eddy> where they get those lovely smooth shifts & transitions


In several places thru the Step Up vids it looks like they show examples of thumbs-down for rotary, tail pushing etc. They also have a segment in there with the flat-pivot part which is what Aldighieri was saying about foot-steer. <my interpretation>



>Then again maybe brown pants got the point of that drill and went on to get the benefit of this one.

Yep, totally. For interest and fwiw, the drill that brown pants is doing in the pic is exactly the one that Chuck Martin describes at 6:21 in the Mogul Logic with Chuck vid. I.e. good turn & weightshift in low position on Flats


> One thing is sure - the extension is about getting at least as forward as perpendicular to the pitch.

Yep, absolutely.

 

[recbumper]

For the rollers drill, how about "Active Early Frontside To Passive Backside" ?

 

[geepers]

@recbumper

This drill

brings to mind this skiing:




More specifically the way purple suit leverages the tips (class 2 lever - wheelbarrow) into the face of the oncoming bump. Can see it in the frontal view where the vid is cued to start or the side view here.

Like <at least in my interpretation> what I see in the lady in blue GIF is her riding up the roller edged on the Old ski, then getting a nice clear, clean weightshift onto the New Ski about 6" before the crest, knee rolling to get New Edge, and then passively riding down the backside of the roller. What's bringing the ski around is her weight on the boot-tongue, and the ski itself coming around cause of the Edge <just my interpretation of what may be happening there fwiw>

That's puzzling. Looks to me like the skis are pivoting around a point close to the middle. Initially it's around the pole plant and then on the crest both tips and tails are rotating around the feet. Can't see much tip involvement as she then braquages down the back of the bupm into the next bump.

At higher speed this? (Lots of slomo examples)

 

[Seldomski]

@geepers - I'm not sure what you are trying to prove/get at. The skis are pivoting, yes, but what exactly causes them to pivot? How much of this is steering vs. tip engagement with the snow?

Some of the drills are like pivot slips, so yes, there is a lot of foot steer in them. Once you get into actually skiing in bumps the emphasis is on heavy pressure on the tips coupled with rolling from one set of edges to the others. This is what makes the turn and braking action happen. The tip of the ski bites in and turns closer to the tip of the ski and the tails do slide since there is less pressure -- or they are airborne. The front edges of the ski do most of the work in turning the ski. It is a smeared/pivoty turn, especially at the tails.

"Slamming" the tails into the bump as you hit it is a way to help slow down and start the next turn. I find this to be jarring way to ski bumps in volume and is more of an emergency type move when you are going too fast, too far aft, and late getting on the new edges. You can use the tail to check speed if you have run out of other tricks and try to get forward again, but it's not the best way.

 

[Rdputnam515]

Pali is seriously steep. Seriously

 

[Rdputnam515]

We don't want a mogul thread to die too young.

Let me try to get it back on the rails attempting to answer this question about how steepness impacts styles. I think this is often a point of misunderstanding. What's steep to one isn't to another. Same with mogul size. And soft vs. firm bumps. Tough to have a conversation with such different baselines.


Generally, it's really tough to ski a direct competition-style on a steep run. That's why it's rare to find a zipper line on a truly steep run. You tend to get rounder lines as a run gets steeper since most skiers need to bring their skis around more to control speed. I think this is why they need to rope off mogul courses.

I've got a video that I think shows this nicely. This is Pallavicini at A-basin top to bottom. You can see how the moguls change as the steepness changes.

Look at these bumps in three parts. The top is steep but the wind has smoothed out the bumps nicely. The wind-protected middle still steep but has big larger bumps typically found on steep runs. These don't lend themselves to zipper line skiing, as that line doesn't really exist. Finally, at the bottom, the pitch mellows out and some nice zipper lines magically appear.



As for my line choice, my goal was to ski the run top to bottom. I'm not worried about style or technique, just finding the easiest way down without stopping. That meant bigger turns at the top and in the middle. I do think it's interesting that I chose to ski the zipper line at the bottom. My legs were burning and that was the easiest way down. At least for me. Trying to flow like the water.

This is great. Pali is not for the faint of heart. I’ve been in there with shed sized bumps and it’s all about survival, lol.

 

[tball]

Here's a new video from today.

I'm trying to teach my son bump skiing in some horrible conditions. Rock hard refrozen bumps covered with windblown snow. It was in the 50's several days earlier this week, then got down to 16 last night!

I showed him a slow zipper line by bringing the skis way around like one of the videos in this thread. It was too difficult for my son in those conditions. I wish you could hear how loud the snow is, but the wind was crazy. I think that it will be good to try in slush bumps with him.

I then skied a wider easier line. That went much better. He was having fun, skied the bottom of the run without stopping, and wanted to go back for more. At the end of the day, he said that he likes skiing more than soccer. The first time he's ever said that!


It's a long video, so here are the highlights you can skip to by clicking on the time if you like:

• 1:00 demonstrating a slow zipper line by bringing my skis far around the hill.
• 2:00 demonstrating an easier, slower wide line around the bumps.
• 4:30 the kid skiing awesome on the difficult bottom section with large bumps.
• 5:30 me having a little fun in the zipper line.

 

[geepers]

@geepers - I'm not sure what you are trying to prove/get at. The skis are pivoting, yes, but what exactly causes them to pivot? How much of this is steering vs. tip engagement with the snow?

Some of the drills are like pivot slips, so yes, there is a lot of foot steer in them. Once you get into actually skiing in bumps the emphasis is on heavy pressure on the tips coupled with rolling from one set of edges to the others. This is what makes the turn and braking action happen. The tip of the ski bites in and turns closer to the tip of the ski and the tails do slide since there is less pressure -- or they are airborne. The front edges of the ski do most of the work in turning the ski. It is a smeared/pivoty turn, especially at the tails.

"Slamming" the tails into the bump as you hit it is a way to help slow down and start the next turn. I find this to be jarring way to ski bumps in volume and is more of an emergency type move when you are going too fast, too far aft, and late getting on the new edges. You can use the tail to check speed if you have run out of other tricks and try to get forward again, but it's not the best way.

Just trying to figure out what's going on. And how it's done - enough of it so I can work out how to apply within the confines of what I'm happy to attempt and is available. Not going to tackle any too-steep pitches with skis pointing more or less straight down the fall line. Still putting up with an injury from last September. (That was really nothing to do with technique, just a trap for new players.)

"Too-steep" is a subjective term however there's often not much in the way of appropriately mild pitches for learning a new skill at the resorts I ski. Skis more sideways likely to provide more opportunities hence my interest. (Happy to ski what's available with the traditional, rounder style but would like to broaden the repertoire.)

I think your description of turning when skis are pointing down the fall line (more or less) is on the money. I'm less convinced that the tips are the primary means of turning when the skis are getting much more across the pitch since they spend so much time on the uphill edge, going sideways or in the air.

On snow there won't be any zipperline bump coaches available so trying to get thoughts straight ahead of time.

 

[Rod9301]

Here's a new video from today.

I'm trying to teach my son bump skiing in some horrible conditions. Rock hard refrozen bumps covered with windblown snow. It was in the 50's several days earlier this week, then got down to 16 last night!

I showed him a slow zipper line by bringing the skis way around like one of the videos in this thread. It was too difficult for my son in those conditions. I wish you could hear how loud the snow is, but the wind was crazy. I think that it will be good to try in slush bumps with him.

I then skied a wider easier line. That went much better. He was having fun, skied the bottom of the run without stopping, and wanted to go back for more. At the end of the day, he said that he likes skiing more than soccer. The first time he's ever said that!


It's a long video, so here are the highlights you can skip to by clicking on the time if you like:

• 1:00 demonstrating a slow zipper line by bringing my skis far around the hill.
• 2:00 demonstrating an easier, slower wide line around the bumps.
• 4:30 the kid skiing awesome on the difficult bottom section with large bumps.
• 5:30 me having a little fun in the zipper line.

Nice skiing.

And nice to see good bumps and very steep.
It seems that, at least at Squaw, it's hard to find bump lines like this.

 

[jack97]

At the end of the day, he said that he likes skiing more than soccer. The first time he's ever said that!

Umm...... wait until he finds out about girls

 

[tball]

Nice skiing.

And nice to see good bumps and very steep.
It seems that, at least at Squaw, it's hard to find bump lines like this.

Thanks. Yeah, not enough good bump runs where you can ski something like a zipper line top to bottom. That's one of three that I really like at Copper out of countless bump runs. It's a single black run. The other two are blue runs.

The steeper double black runs are full of bumps and require other techniques to ski well, IMO. See my Pali post upthread.

I haven't skied Squaw, but it seems it's the same deal there. The Return of the Turn video shows how a bunch of Olympic bump skiers' technique still kills it on steeper terrain at Squaw that doesn't have a perfect zipper line:

 

[recbumper]

Just trying to figure out what's going on. And how it's done - enough of it so I can work out how to apply within the confines of what I'm happy to attempt and is available. Not going to tackle any too-steep pitches with skis pointing more or less straight down the fall line. Still putting up with an injury from last September. (That was really nothing to do with technique, just a trap for new players.)

"Too-steep" is a subjective term however there's often not much in the way of appropriately mild pitches for learning a new skill at the resorts I ski. Skis more sideways likely to provide more opportunities hence my interest. (Happy to ski what's available with the traditional, rounder style but would like to broaden the repertoire.)

I think your description of turning when skis are pointing down the fall line (more or less) is on the money. I'm less convinced that the tips are the primary means of turning when the skis are getting much more across the pitch since they spend so much time on the uphill edge, going sideways or in the air.

On snow there won't be any zipperline bump coaches available so trying to get thoughts straight ahead of time.

G in case it may be fun/useful in broadening the repertoire, here is a quick rundown of the wicked practical intro sequence we have been using in our neck of the woods to introduce peeps who wanna try it to mogul technique elements and be able to start applying/using these elements in their skiing. The elements then help both in moguls and anywhere else they want to ski. <Feel free to laugh & ignore if this ain't fun/helpful or not where you're at or anything.>

We have seen that intermediate or advanced skiers usually get the first half of this within about 2 hours, then we go into the bumps, and within 3-4 hours of starting from zero they have the beginnings of the hang of it and light starting to dawn in their eyes. And big smiles So - wicked practical cause it makes a tangible difference & gives a usable foundation in moguls for many peeps <not all> within 3-4 hours.

First, basic body position. Hands Up & Forward (and constantly pushing down the hill). Hips Forward (ahead of boots & feet). Shin Pressure. Chest Up, Head High. Vision Up. Stay Square (at least basic squaring). Oops you dropped your hands again. Oops you dropped your hips back. This set usually takes about 2-3 runs for peeps to start using most of the elements of. They always complain that it feels weird & stiff and they were always trained to hunch over to go faster cause what about air resistance. But after a couple of runs they start using it, at least a little bit. <can add a bit on mogul poleplants as well, if a particular person is getting held back by poles>

Second, Early Turn. This is the single most important part of mogul skiing technique. Everything else progresses from Early turns.
Explain the Early Turn. Early Turn means that you Shift onto your New Ski right at the top of the turn ("top of the C"). Then you simply stand on the ski for the rest of the turn, and you Rrrrrrriiiide it as it goes around the corner. Then you Shift to the other one, also Early. Omigod I'm not allowed to ski that way. Yes you are and it changes everything. The reason Early changes everything is that Early gives you 3X the speed control than Late. Because Early gives you speed control with your New Edge on the Top of the turn (thruout the top curve of the C), at the Apex, and also after the Apex. That is 3X the speed control. Late skiers only get 1x speed control, cause they only get edge after the apex. So mogul skiers have 3X the speed control. This takes about 2-3 mins to explain.

Mogul Wedge. Learn to turn Early by doing the Mogul Wedge. <see the various vids>. Usually we do Wedges for maybe 1/2 of a run, for like 2 or 3 runs. First sections of the run are wedges. Later sections are putting that awwwwesome strong edgebite that they learn from the Wedge into their normal turns.

Early Parallel turns. Traverse across the hill with all weight on Old Downhill Ski. Halfway across the hill, weightshift onto uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). Keep traversing with weight on uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). Wait I'm not allowed to ski like this. Yes you are you hate it cause you're learning Early. Your weight is all on the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). About 7-10' before you come to where you want to turn, Roll The Knee Downhill. Omigod The TIP INSIDE EDGE BITES IN and the Ski Goes Around By Itself. That was Early muhahahaha. Now stand on the ski and RRRiiiiiidddeee it all the way around the corner. Nooooo don't let it get away from ya -- Pull It Back and Stand On It allllll the waayyy thruuuu. That was Early muhahahaha. Now do it all the way across on the other foot Noooo I'm Scared It's weird It's EARLY

< if they don't really get Knee Roll yet, sharpen that up for 'em. Otherwise main Knee Roll learning is later outside the Intro>

Early Javelin Turns (uncrossed). Do the same drill above, but with less silliness and now, while you are standing on the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski) on each traverse, lift the Old Ski off the snow and hold it there. Keep holding the Old Ski in the air all the way thru the turn. Omigod I feel so off balance Omigod I have to Commit My Weight to the New Downhill Ski oh guess what, now I know what Shin Pressure is, and Tip Edge. I'm still scared to Commit though. Yes but you'll learn
<note on this one -- don't try to cross the Old Ski over like Aiko Uemura or Patrick Deneen. Those are later types of Javelin turns whose purpose is to teach Square. No crossing for this version. The purpose here is to teach Early and Shin Pressure>

5-second, 3-second, 1-second Javelin Turns. Now do the Javelin turn. Start with 5-second Javelin turns. This starts to give fluidity. You traverse, and you count Shift-2-3-4-5, Shift-2-3-4-5, etc. On the Shift, you are weightshifting to the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski) and lifting the inside ski (Old Downhill Ski). The kneeroll comes usually between the Shift and the 2.
Now do 3-second Javelins. You traverse, and you count Shift-2-3, Shift-2-3. Omigod that was starting to feel quick & shortradius....like...like a Mogul Turn omi muhahahaha
Now do 1-second Javelins. No time to traverse, you count Shift, Shift, Shift. Omigod that is too fast for a beginner to keep up. Yep now you feel the edge of the envelope

5-second, 3-second, 1-second parallel turns. Now do parallel turns, Using All The Pieces From Above but not lifting the ski. 5-second parallel turns have real fluidity, they are quite Early, have plenty of Edgebite, and are Reasonably Medium Radius, Reasonably Quick. Shift-2-3-4-5, Shift-2-3-4-5 OK
Now do 3-second parallel turns. Count Shift-2-3, Shift-2-3. Omigod that Really Is Starting To Feel Like a Mogul Skier Looks. Yep it's the foundation
Now do 1-second parallel turns with all the pieces from above. Shift, Shift, Shift, Shift oh guess what now you have a Mogul Turn muhahahahaha <and years ahead to improve it>

All that stuff ^^^ took about 2 hours for a lot of peeps. This is all done on blue runs so far

Now Take It In The Moguls. Find a blue mogul run.

Early Turn On 1 Mogul. Learn where to start your weightshift in order to get an Early Turn on a single mogul. Find a fun mogul with a decent smooth shape. Using your skipole, mark a line across the face of the mogul about 2.5-3' before the crest. Now back up a ways and ski down to the mogul. When your boots' toepieces reach the line, Weightshift. Omigod my turn got Edgebite a little bit on the frontside and positioned me perfectly for Edge all the way down the backside. Yes it did, if you were Early. If you were Late, you choked and felt it.
<For beginners we mark the weightshift boot line at about 2.5-3' before the crest. Later when you get good the weightshift can start at 1' to 6" to 0" before the crest. The primary factor here is the length of Time t that it takes a beginner to start and then complete the weightshift. Newbies' Time Intervals are reallllllly Slow so they have to start sooner in space.
<Also please note that these Early Weightshift lines are not the same as the Targets for tips-to-target drills. For the Intro, forget all about the tips etc. It's about Boots for the timing.>>

Early Turn On 2 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 2 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Omigod that mostly worked. But here's something New - that second mogul came up really quickly in Time and I wasn't ready for it. Ya no kidding, welcome to Mogul Skiing. They happen quickly

Early Turn on 3 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 3 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Holy Smokes bump 2 and bump 3 came up so fast. I thought I had learned an Early Turn but now I'm Late alla time, Why?? Now you're in Headgame territory. Now you have an Early Turn. Now you have to keep your head in the game and understand & be ready for how fast these things are gonna come in at you - Shift-Shift-Shift-Shift. Be ready that's your pace cause now you are a mogul skier
Not like Slow Old Alpine With Sevvvvvvennnnn Sekkkondzzzz Betweeeennnn Carvvvvvedddd GGGGGSSSSSS Turnzzzzz. Their Velocities are Fast but their Turn Intervalzzzzz are SSSssslowwwwww But we aren't skiing Alpine anymore cause now you are a mogul skier

Early Turn on 1 Steep Mogul. Go find a Black run with fairly large bumps. Mark your Early Weightshift line 3' before the crest. Ski 1 bump. Oh guess what It Worked. Dang. I skied that one Early. Now go home. Come back tomorrow and very carefully do more steep bumps

Sheesh that was weird. Try it - we've seen multi dozen peeps do that this season and it worked for every single one

Peace All

 

[geepers]

G in case it may be fun/useful in broadening the repertoire, here is a quick rundown of the wicked practical intro sequence we have been using in our neck of the woods to introduce peeps who wanna try it to mogul technique elements and be able to start applying/using these elements in their skiing. The elements then help both in moguls and anywhere else they want to ski. <Feel free to laugh & ignore if this ain't fun/helpful or not where you're at or anything.>

We have seen that intermediate or advanced skiers usually get the first half of this within about 2 hours, then we go into the bumps, and within 3-4 hours of starting from zero they have the beginnings of the hang of it and light starting to dawn in their eyes. And big smiles So - wicked practical cause it makes a tangible difference & gives a usable foundation in moguls for many peeps <not all> within 3-4 hours.

First, basic body position. Hands Up & Forward (and constantly pushing down the hill). Hips Forward (ahead of boots & feet). Shin Pressure. Chest Up, Head High. Vision Up. Stay Square (at least basic squaring). Oops you dropped your hands again. Oops you dropped your hips back. This set usually takes about 2-3 runs for peeps to start using most of the elements of. They always complain that it feels weird & stiff and they were always trained to hunch over to go faster cause what about air resistance. But after a couple of runs they start using it, at least a little bit. <can add a bit on mogul poleplants as well, if a particular person is getting held back by poles>

Second, Early Turn. This is the single most important part of mogul skiing technique. Everything else progresses from Early turns.
Explain the Early Turn. Early Turn means that you Shift onto your New Ski right at the top of the turn ("top of the C"). Then you simply stand on the ski for the rest of the turn, and you Rrrrrrriiiide it as it goes around the corner. Then you Shift to the other one, also Early. Omigod I'm not allowed to ski that way. Yes you are and it changes everything. The reason Early changes everything is that Early gives you 3X the speed control than Late. Because Early gives you speed control with your New Edge on the Top of the turn (thruout the top curve of the C), at the Apex, and also after the Apex. That is 3X the speed control. Late skiers only get 1x speed control, cause they only get edge after the apex. So mogul skiers have 3X the speed control. This takes about 2-3 mins to explain.

Mogul Wedge. Learn to turn Early by doing the Mogul Wedge. <see the various vids>. Usually we do Wedges for maybe 1/2 of a run, for like 2 or 3 runs. First sections of the run are wedges. Later sections are putting that awwwwesome strong edgebite that they learn from the Wedge into their normal turns.

Early Parallel turns. Traverse across the hill with all weight on Old Downhill Ski. Halfway across the hill, weightshift onto uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). Keep traversing with weight on uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). Wait I'm not allowed to ski like this. Yes you are you hate it cause you're learning Early. Your weight is all on the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). About 7-10' before you come to where you want to turn, Roll The Knee Downhill. Omigod The TIP INSIDE EDGE BITES IN and the Ski Goes Around By Itself. That was Early muhahahaha. Now stand on the ski and RRRiiiiiidddeee it all the way around the corner. Nooooo don't let it get away from ya -- Pull It Back and Stand On It allllll the waayyy thruuuu. That was Early muhahahaha. Now do it all the way across on the other foot Noooo I'm Scared It's weird It's EARLY

< if they don't really get Knee Roll yet, sharpen that up for 'em. Otherwise main Knee Roll learning is later outside the Intro>

Early Javelin Turns (uncrossed). Do the same drill above, but with less silliness and now, while you are standing on the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski) on each traverse, lift the Old Ski off the snow and hold it there. Keep holding the Old Ski in the air all the way thru the turn. Omigod I feel so off balance Omigod I have to Commit My Weight to the New Downhill Ski oh guess what, now I know what Shin Pressure is, and Tip Edge. I'm still scared to Commit though. Yes but you'll learn
<note on this one -- don't try to cross the Old Ski over like Aiko Uemura or Patrick Deneen. Those are later types of Javelin turns whose purpose is to teach Square. No crossing for this version. The purpose here is to teach Early and Shin Pressure>

5-second, 3-second, 1-second Javelin Turns. Now do the Javelin turn. Start with 5-second Javelin turns. This starts to give fluidity. You traverse, and you count Shift-2-3-4-5, Shift-2-3-4-5, etc. On the Shift, you are weightshifting to the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski) and lifting the inside ski (Old Downhill Ski). The kneeroll comes usually between the Shift and the 2.
Now do 3-second Javelins. You traverse, and you count Shift-2-3, Shift-2-3. Omigod that was starting to feel quick & shortradius....like...like a Mogul Turn omi muhahahaha
Now do 1-second Javelins. No time to traverse, you count Shift, Shift, Shift. Omigod that is too fast for a beginner to keep up. Yep now you feel the edge of the envelope

5-second, 3-second, 1-second parallel turns. Now do parallel turns, Using All The Pieces From Above but not lifting the ski. 5-second parallel turns have real fluidity, they are quite Early, have plenty of Edgebite, and are Reasonably Medium Radius, Reasonably Quick. Shift-2-3-4-5, Shift-2-3-4-5 OK
Now do 3-second parallel turns. Count Shift-2-3, Shift-2-3. Omigod that Really Is Starting To Feel Like a Mogul Skier Looks. Yep it's the foundation
Now do 1-second parallel turns with all the pieces from above. Shift, Shift, Shift, Shift oh guess what now you have a Mogul Turn muhahahahaha <and years ahead to improve it>

All that stuff ^^^ took about 2 hours for a lot of peeps. This is all done on blue runs so far

Now Take It In The Moguls. Find a blue mogul run.

Early Turn On 1 Mogul. Learn where to start your weightshift in order to get an Early Turn on a single mogul. Find a fun mogul with a decent smooth shape. Using your skipole, mark a line across the face of the mogul about 2.5-3' before the crest. Now back up a ways and ski down to the mogul. When your boots' toepieces reach the line, Weightshift. Omigod my turn got Edgebite a little bit on the frontside and positioned me perfectly for Edge all the way down the backside. Yes it did, if you were Early. If you were Late, you choked and felt it.
<For beginners we mark the weightshift boot line at about 2.5-3' before the crest. Later when you get good the weightshift can start at 1' to 6" to 0" before the crest. The primary factor here is the length of Time t that it takes a beginner to start and then complete the weightshift. Newbies' Time Intervals are reallllllly Slow so they have to start sooner in space.
<Also please note that these Early Weightshift lines are not the same as the Targets for tips-to-target drills. For the Intro, forget all about the tips etc. It's about Boots for the timing.>>

Early Turn On 2 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 2 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Omigod that mostly worked. But here's something New - that second mogul came up really quickly in Time and I wasn't ready for it. Ya no kidding, welcome to Mogul Skiing. They happen quickly

Early Turn on 3 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 3 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Holy Smokes bump 2 and bump 3 came up so fast. I thought I had learned an Early Turn but now I'm Late alla time, Why?? Now you're in Headgame territory. Now you have an Early Turn. Now you have to keep your head in the game and understand & be ready for how fast these things are gonna come in at you - Shift-Shift-Shift-Shift. Be ready that's your pace cause now you are a mogul skier
Not like Slow Old Alpine With Sevvvvvvennnnn Sekkkondzzzz Betweeeennnn Carvvvvvedddd GGGGGSSSSSS Turnzzzzz. Their Velocities are Fast but their Turn Intervalzzzzz are SSSssslowwwwww But we aren't skiing Alpine anymore cause now you are a mogul skier

Early Turn on 1 Steep Mogul. Go find a Black run with fairly large bumps. Mark your Early Weightshift line 3' before the crest. Ski 1 bump. Oh guess what It Worked. Dang. I skied that one Early. Now go home. Come back tomorrow and very carefully do more steep bumps

Sheesh that was weird. Try it - we've seen multi dozen peeps do that this season and it worked for every single one

Peace All

Appreciate this...

When time allows, will add some vid clips to see if mental image matches what you mean. After which it should be a handy insta-zipper instruction manual.

Now we just need some snow...

 

[Chris V.]

G in case it may be fun/useful in broadening the repertoire, here is a quick rundown of the wicked practical intro sequence we have been using....

Good stuff. And the secret is--it's not only good for moguls!

 

[locknload]

G in case it may be fun/useful in broadening the repertoire, here is a quick rundown of the wicked practical intro sequence we have been using in our neck of the woods to introduce peeps who wanna try it to mogul technique elements and be able to start applying/using these elements in their skiing. The elements then help both in moguls and anywhere else they want to ski. <Feel free to laugh & ignore if this ain't fun/helpful or not where you're at or anything.>

We have seen that intermediate or advanced skiers usually get the first half of this within about 2 hours, then we go into the bumps, and within 3-4 hours of starting from zero they have the beginnings of the hang of it and light starting to dawn in their eyes. And big smiles So - wicked practical cause it makes a tangible difference & gives a usable foundation in moguls for many peeps <not all> within 3-4 hours.

First, basic body position. Hands Up & Forward (and constantly pushing down the hill). Hips Forward (ahead of boots & feet). Shin Pressure. Chest Up, Head High. Vision Up. Stay Square (at least basic squaring). Oops you dropped your hands again. Oops you dropped your hips back. This set usually takes about 2-3 runs for peeps to start using most of the elements of. They always complain that it feels weird & stiff and they were always trained to hunch over to go faster cause what about air resistance. But after a couple of runs they start using it, at least a little bit. <can add a bit on mogul poleplants as well, if a particular person is getting held back by poles>

Second, Early Turn. This is the single most important part of mogul skiing technique. Everything else progresses from Early turns.
Explain the Early Turn. Early Turn means that you Shift onto your New Ski right at the top of the turn ("top of the C"). Then you simply stand on the ski for the rest of the turn, and you Rrrrrrriiiide it as it goes around the corner. Then you Shift to the other one, also Early. Omigod I'm not allowed to ski that way. Yes you are and it changes everything. The reason Early changes everything is that Early gives you 3X the speed control than Late. Because Early gives you speed control with your New Edge on the Top of the turn (thruout the top curve of the C), at the Apex, and also after the Apex. That is 3X the speed control. Late skiers only get 1x speed control, cause they only get edge after the apex. So mogul skiers have 3X the speed control. This takes about 2-3 mins to explain.

Mogul Wedge. Learn to turn Early by doing the Mogul Wedge. <see the various vids>. Usually we do Wedges for maybe 1/2 of a run, for like 2 or 3 runs. First sections of the run are wedges. Later sections are putting that awwwwesome strong edgebite that they learn from the Wedge into their normal turns.

Early Parallel turns. Traverse across the hill with all weight on Old Downhill Ski. Halfway across the hill, weightshift onto uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). Keep traversing with weight on uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). Wait I'm not allowed to ski like this. Yes you are you hate it cause you're learning Early. Your weight is all on the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski). About 7-10' before you come to where you want to turn, Roll The Knee Downhill. Omigod The TIP INSIDE EDGE BITES IN and the Ski Goes Around By Itself. That was Early muhahahaha. Now stand on the ski and RRRiiiiiidddeee it all the way around the corner. Nooooo don't let it get away from ya -- Pull It Back and Stand On It allllll the waayyy thruuuu. That was Early muhahahaha. Now do it all the way across on the other foot Noooo I'm Scared It's weird It's EARLY

< if they don't really get Knee Roll yet, sharpen that up for 'em. Otherwise main Knee Roll learning is later outside the Intro>

Early Javelin Turns (uncrossed). Do the same drill above, but with less silliness and now, while you are standing on the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski) on each traverse, lift the Old Ski off the snow and hold it there. Keep holding the Old Ski in the air all the way thru the turn. Omigod I feel so off balance Omigod I have to Commit My Weight to the New Downhill Ski oh guess what, now I know what Shin Pressure is, and Tip Edge. I'm still scared to Commit though. Yes but you'll learn
<note on this one -- don't try to cross the Old Ski over like Aiko Uemura or Patrick Deneen. Those are later types of Javelin turns whose purpose is to teach Square. No crossing for this version. The purpose here is to teach Early and Shin Pressure>

5-second, 3-second, 1-second Javelin Turns. Now do the Javelin turn. Start with 5-second Javelin turns. This starts to give fluidity. You traverse, and you count Shift-2-3-4-5, Shift-2-3-4-5, etc. On the Shift, you are weightshifting to the uphill ski (New Downhill Ski) and lifting the inside ski (Old Downhill Ski). The kneeroll comes usually between the Shift and the 2.
Now do 3-second Javelins. You traverse, and you count Shift-2-3, Shift-2-3. Omigod that was starting to feel quick & shortradius....like...like a Mogul Turn omi muhahahaha
Now do 1-second Javelins. No time to traverse, you count Shift, Shift, Shift. Omigod that is too fast for a beginner to keep up. Yep now you feel the edge of the envelope

5-second, 3-second, 1-second parallel turns. Now do parallel turns, Using All The Pieces From Above but not lifting the ski. 5-second parallel turns have real fluidity, they are quite Early, have plenty of Edgebite, and are Reasonably Medium Radius, Reasonably Quick. Shift-2-3-4-5, Shift-2-3-4-5 OK
Now do 3-second parallel turns. Count Shift-2-3, Shift-2-3. Omigod that Really Is Starting To Feel Like a Mogul Skier Looks. Yep it's the foundation
Now do 1-second parallel turns with all the pieces from above. Shift, Shift, Shift, Shift oh guess what now you have a Mogul Turn muhahahahaha <and years ahead to improve it>

All that stuff ^^^ took about 2 hours for a lot of peeps. This is all done on blue runs so far

Now Take It In The Moguls. Find a blue mogul run.

Early Turn On 1 Mogul. Learn where to start your weightshift in order to get an Early Turn on a single mogul. Find a fun mogul with a decent smooth shape. Using your skipole, mark a line across the face of the mogul about 2.5-3' before the crest. Now back up a ways and ski down to the mogul. When your boots' toepieces reach the line, Weightshift. Omigod my turn got Edgebite a little bit on the frontside and positioned me perfectly for Edge all the way down the backside. Yes it did, if you were Early. If you were Late, you choked and felt it.
<For beginners we mark the weightshift boot line at about 2.5-3' before the crest. Later when you get good the weightshift can start at 1' to 6" to 0" before the crest. The primary factor here is the length of Time t that it takes a beginner to start and then complete the weightshift. Newbies' Time Intervals are reallllllly Slow so they have to start sooner in space.
<Also please note that these Early Weightshift lines are not the same as the Targets for tips-to-target drills. For the Intro, forget all about the tips etc. It's about Boots for the timing.>>

Early Turn On 2 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 2 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Omigod that mostly worked. But here's something New - that second mogul came up really quickly in Time and I wasn't ready for it. Ya no kidding, welcome to Mogul Skiing. They happen quickly

Early Turn on 3 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 3 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Holy Smokes bump 2 and bump 3 came up so fast. I thought I had learned an Early Turn but now I'm Late alla time, Why?? Now you're in Headgame territory. Now you have an Early Turn. Now you have to keep your head in the game and understand & be ready for how fast these things are gonna come in at you - Shift-Shift-Shift-Shift. Be ready that's your pace cause now you are a mogul skier
Not like Slow Old Alpine With Sevvvvvvennnnn Sekkkondzzzz Betweeeennnn Carvvvvvedddd GGGGGSSSSSS Turnzzzzz. Their Velocities are Fast but their Turn Intervalzzzzz are SSSssslowwwwww But we aren't skiing Alpine anymore cause now you are a mogul skier

Early Turn on 1 Steep Mogul. Go find a Black run with fairly large bumps. Mark your Early Weightshift line 3' before the crest. Ski 1 bump. Oh guess what It Worked. Dang. I skied that one Early. Now go home. Come back tomorrow and very carefully do more steep bumps

Sheesh that was weird. Try it - we've seen multi dozen peeps do that this season and it worked for every single one

Peace All

Love what you are bringing to this discussion, RecBumper. This basically the executive summary of basic mogul skiing. This one passage really cracked me up:

"Early Turn On 2 Moguls. Mark the weightshift lines on 2 moguls in a row. Ski them like above. Omigod that mostly worked. But here's something New - that second mogul came up really quickly in Time and I wasn't ready for it. Ya no kidding, welcome to Mogul Skiing. They happen quickly"

This is it..its happening so fast in the bumps and ESPECIALLY in the big steep ones...there is no time think so must have trained your body to proactively react. My kids are just starting in the bumps and they were asking why "it happens so fast in the bumps"? I told them they they answered their own question..lol. Anyhow, great stuff in a summarized fashion and good refresher and reminder of all the little tactics and techniques that must be mastered to attack the larger strategic goal of really fluid mogul skiing. As far as I'm concerned, until I can ski the steepest, bumpiest slope on any mtn fluidity and easily then I have a lot more to go to improve my skiing...that's what makes it fun!