Article: Why it's difficult to get detailed information when skiers die at California resorts

[Dougb]

I originally posted the entire article but the mods rightfully shortened it.

The unfortunate fatality was used IMO to put a human face on some larger points by the article’s author:

- amusement parks in California and some other states have to report all of their fatalities and injuries but ski resorts don’t

- critics say there are no published safety standards or reports at any resorts. Compelling them would not only open them to liability if they don’t clean up their act but lead skiers to make better choices.

I’m all for transparency but I’m not sure I agree skiers would make any better choices. The article acknowledges the sport comes with inherent risk and everyone should know that when they hit the slopes. People make poor decisions every day unfortunately.

The number of deaths seems low to me. One death is too many and catastrophic injuries are heartbreaking. Still, it would be useful if the article compared the numbers to other sports… mountain biking?

My 2 cents.

 

[Vinnie]

Here's a volcano feature in a terrain park. (With a real volcano in the background). It is a very steep multi-sided feature. If you hit it fast and slightly back-seat you will do an unintended backflip.



View attachment 133112

There are smaller versions of these volcano features. Here's a smaller one.

View attachment 133113

And here is the skateboard park equivalent:

View attachment 133115

So this is a tangent.... What ski area is that? Can't make out if the volcano in the background is Ranier or Adams

 

[scott43]

I originally posted the entire article but the mods rightfully shortened it.

The unfortunate fatality was used IMO to put a human face on some larger points by the article’s author:

- amusement parks in California and some other states have to report all of their fatalities and injuries but ski resorts don’t

- critics say there are no published safety standards or reports at any resorts. Compelling them would not only open them to liability if they don’t clean up their act but lead skiers to make better choices.

I’m all for transparency but I’m not sure I agree skiers would make any better choices. The article acknowledges the sport comes with inherent risk and everyone should know that when they hit the slopes. People make poor decisions every day unfortunately.

The number of deaths seems low to me. One death is too many and catastrophic injuries are heartbreaking. Still, it would be useful if the article compared the numbers to other sports… mountain biking?

My 2 cents.

There are general numbers out there...

Risk of dying and sporting activities

Risk of dying and sporting activities

www.bandolier.org.uk

Again though, people's understanding (not academic understanding but cognitive understanding) of relative risk is not good. People are genuinely concerned about bear attacks and shark attacks..which are exceedingly rare, as opposed to riding their bike to the corner store..which is really rather dangerous.

Personally, in something I can relate to more strongly, mountain biking is dangerous..there are trees..people exceed their skillz frequently..it's on them. It's tragic, I get it, but get over it. It's on the rider totally. It's not a bouncy castle.

 

[KingGrump]

Most people ski responsibly.

I see way more instances of skiers skiing out of control and over terrain than transgressions by ski resorts.

 

[newboots]

Perhaps I'm just arguing over word semantics but there is a lot of compassion from ski patrol who take care of you for free; which is the cheapest medical expense you will have in your major accident.

The issue is more no evidence or papertrail to go along with the incident, but that doesn't mean a lack of compassion. It's just an outcome of having to work within the medical/legal system, that can be so financially ruinous.

I didn't intend (of course) to slam ski patrol. I was referring to the CYA attitude by the resorts (and many, many other corporations and people), that has come into being by frivolous lawsuits and insurance company requirements. We all know it has gotten badly out of hand, but as a society we haven't come up with a better way to keep corporations in line. I don't have any solutions. But bless ski patrol!

 

[scott43]

Out of curiosity, what do folks here pay for car insurance? What state and how much for you typical vehicle. I'll start, I pay about $2500/yr for an Outback here in Ontario.

 

[Bill Miles]

Out of curiosity, what do folks here pay for car insurance? What state and how much for you typical vehicle. I'll start, I pay about $2500/yr for an Outback here in Ontario.

I pay about $1,000 a year for two cars (2002 Corvette and 2010 Forester) in Idaho.

 

[Johnny V.]

there is definitely a place for the resort to encourage safe skiing, especially for those who are less experienced.

What would you propose?

 

[Saintsman]

Out of curiosity, what do folks here pay for car insurance? What state and how much for you typical vehicle. I'll start, I pay about $2500/yr for an Outback here in Ontario.

Wow. Insurance is seriously expensive for you guys. I'm paying £350 per year for an 2018 Audi Q8

 

[scott43]

So what I am curious about is the differing legal climates. Here we are required to have $1m liability minimum and $50k medical minimum. Keep in mind primary medical care here is "free". Plus we pay insurance for those that don't have insurance. As a result there isn't a great deal of litigation except in catastrophic injuries. We pay for almost all of the cost of driving accidents.

I know in California insurance is quite a bit cheaper. But you only need to carry $5k in liability and no medical. So i suspect that if you have anything other than a very minor accident in California you're suing someone. Which is really a downloaded cost of insurance. Or your buying higher levels of insurance.

So in a place with a mindset of litigation first, I wouldn't expect any sort of socially cooperative dialog around specific incidents. Everything is subject to litigation so why open yourself up to questioning?

 

[James]

So now we need two threads on the same skier deaths outrage topic?

I get how the mother would be upset about never hearing from the resort. Unfortunately, almost anything they say will be used against them. A “we’re sorry” letter could be twisted into an “admission” of guilt.

 

[Cols714]

What would you propose?

I propose we start by getting the data of where skiing injuries and deaths occur. Nothing can be done until then. And as I've said, since people on this thread seem to think that by having resorts actually report this stuff they won't ever be allowed to ski again, of course skier responsibility is hugely and the most important thing.

 

[Cols714]

I love how just by having skiing mountains report where/when/how deaths and injuries occur that means that the government is going to take away your skis to people on this thread.

Get a grip. Most industries report this stuff and guess what? We still have those industries!

 

[Cols714]

I see way more instances of skiers skiing out of control and over terrain than transgressions by ski resorts.

Um. Nobody said anything about transgressions by the ski resorts. I'm not even sure what that means. But OK.

 

[James]

I love how just by having skiing mountains report where/when/how deaths and injuries occur that means that the government is going to take away your skis to people on this thread.

Get a grip. Most industries report this stuff and guess what? We still have those industries!

I love how somehow it’s a dark conspiracy.
Truly, it’s a yawner.
I’m sure there is concerted effort to keep the info on the down low. Maybe you could try and convince people it matters somehow. Yet to see how it truly would change anything. Though maybe one wouldn’t ski at Silverton. Nah, invincible bro syndrome.

Deaths are pretty constant over the years afaik. How many deaths are being “hidden”?-thousands?, hundreds?, tens?, a few?

 

[François Pugh]

I love how just by having skiing mountains report where/when/how deaths and injuries occur that means that the government is going to take away your skis to people on this thread.

Get a grip. Most industries report this stuff and guess what? We still have those industries!

Well sort of..
You need to pass three tests to drive a car (graduated licensing).
I can still drive my car on a wide open absolutely straight highway across the prairies where I can see the horizon, but only at 110 kph (it used to be 100 kph and I got a ticket for doing 116 kph).

I can still pilot a small pleasure craft with a tiny outboard motor, but only if I pass a government test and get my government certification in Ontario.

I can still use a chain saw for work or a nail gun on a construction site, but only if I'm qualified by taking a course.

Pretty soon you may need a license to wipe your own ass.

More and more skiing terrain is seldom open or is being marked as "permanently closed".

 

[Ogg]

Well sort of..
You need to pass three tests to drive a car (graduated licensing).
I can still drive my car on a wide open absolutely straight highway across the prairies where I can see the horizon, but only at 110 kph (it used to be 100 kph and I got a ticket for doing 116 kph).

I can still pilot a small pleasure craft with a tiny outboard motor, but only if I pass a government test and get my government certification in Ontario.

I can still use a chain saw for work or a nail gun on a construction site, but only if I'm qualified by taking a course.

Pretty soon you may need a license to wipe your own ass.

More and more skiing terrain is seldom open or is being marked as "permanently closed".

Do they really make you take a course for that in Canada? I'm skeptical. Here anybody that walks into Home Depot with a credit card can buy whatever tools they want and even rent heavy(ish) equipment without proving any kind of certification.

Insurance around here is pretty much on par with @scott43 's numbers. Even basic liability insurance would cost me over $1000. Full coverage(collision/theft/glass/etc.) on my Silverado is ~$2200/yr. I do happen live in one of the most expensive counties in one of the most expensive states to insure a vehicle.

 

[François Pugh]

@Ogg it's a ministry of labour health and safety thing. You can use lots of dangerous tools for personal use, but not for work.
I'm not sure if Trudeau has banned nail guns yet.

 

[Ogg]

@Ogg it's a ministry of labour health and safety thing. You can use lots of dangerous tools for personal use, but not for work.
I'm not sure if Trudeau has banned nail guns yet.

Other than on big commercial/union jobs there is really no standard around here. Residential construction is pretty much a free for all. This actually works out well for me because I get a fair amount of work fixing other peoples hackery.

 

[Cols714]

LOLOLOL. Resorts reporting injures and deaths does not mean people are coming to take away your skis. When did this forum become so nutty?
Get a grip people.