Athlete vs. recreational DIN settings

[Wade]

My 13 year old son competes in freestyle moguls. His coach mentioned to him over the weekend that he thought his skis were coming off too easily, and as he's skiing the course faster and throwing bigger and higher consequence tricks, that he should be running higher DIN settings than he is. On the crashes I've seen, it hasn't been perfectly clear to me whether an unwanted binding release caused the crash, or whether the ski came off after the crash. But his coach is an Olympian, has won a bunch on the World Cup and has a great relationship with the kids he works with, so I'm pretty confident he knows what he's talking about and also wouldn't make a suggestion like that unless he thought it was genuinely in the athlete's best interest.

My question is: For freestyle and alpine athletes, is the 3+ setting appropriate? Something more than that? If it's something more than 3+, is there a rule of thumb that should be applied to at least get to the right starting point?

It feels a bit nerve wracking to be guessing at something that has implications for my son's safety. He's probably at a point where I should err on the side of setting the release values too high rather than too low. While neither scenario is ideal, I think on balance his safety is best served by making sure his skis stay on his feet when he needs them and taking the risk on them not coming off as easily in a crash.

 

[robertc3]

3+ is where I would start. If he is coming out of the skis too easily then you can go up. You are walking a tight rope with this. Too high can be dangerous, too low can be dangerous, heck skiing at this level can be dangerous.

Some coaches on my son's race team will up the DINs before a race and then put them back down for training. I am not sure I love the idea, but I understand why they are doing it. We only go 3+ on skis that will be used in competitions. Freeskis would not be 3+ unless there was a problem with pre-release.

 

[pchewn]

3+ sortta makes sense. On the one hand, the coach has a history of successful mogul skiing accomplishments. On the other hand, you should ask him if he or any of his athletes have had leg injuries using this binding setting practice.

I suspect the answer to be several leg injuries in his circle. It seems very common among high end ski athletes. The level of what they ask their bodies to do is just too close to the breaking point. You should prepare yourself for a good chance of your son being injured.

 

[François Pugh]

I could see situations where I might want more than 3+, but before I went there, I would check the binding and make sure the 3+ indicated was actually a 3+.
I'm not into tricks and such in the mogul competition, so I really don't know how it relates. In the speed skiing, which I can relate to even though I don't compete, I can see where the higher than 3+ setting is actually safer than the risk of injury from having a release-caused fall at high speed. In mogul competition is the risk of release weighed against the risk of injury or the risk of not winning?

 

[Wilhelmson]

I don’t compete but for moguls, unlike speed, its hard to imagine scenarios where no release is more probable to avoid bad injury than release at a reasonable setting. Or maybe its for development to ski harder and better?How much more din did the coach recommend? I could see starting with a quarter or half turn and getting it tested. Now if he’s good and interested enough to possibly go pro, hard to tell at that age, maybe you need to trust the coach. But if he’s setting his sights on D1 glory, maybe continue exercising caution.

hey at least nobody has told you to feed your kid more and tell him to man up and do some squats.

 

[GB_Ski]

3+ as in skier type on the DIN chart? Some of our alpine race coaches are very much against 3+ as a general guideline. They did say if they see athletes ejecting too easily, they will crank up the DIN, they also want the skis to be tested after every season. So I would trust your coach, maybe crank up by +.5 or +1?

 

[crgildart]

I was skiing at 2 above what the highest Level III DIN chart said when I skied USSA Freestyle bumps.. My legs were like tree trunks back then though.. It was required mostly because I was using force to compensate for technical deficiencies.. i.e. As my technique got better and skiing got smoother I could ease the DIN back some without losing skis.

 

[Philpug]

Go with what your coach says, he is there, us on the internet are not.

 

[oldschoolskier]

People commonly (and justifiably) mistake the DIN values as a release value for safety. For masses this is relatively true. Now for those ski at the high end these values change from a release value to as a maximum retention value which complete changes the view point.

This is why we start seeing 3, 3+, 3++ or even higher.

To complicate things further binding design and mechanical operation further complicate how these value react in real life skiing. Again experience here is what drives these numbers and are application specific.

So consider the base DIN values in the charts as a good starting point and adjust according to balance retention vs release.

There are a few very good threads the talk about this.

 

[Rod9301]

Definitely 3+. But it also matters what bindings he's using. If it's one with a lot of elasticity, like pivot, 3+will work. If less, then even higher.
.
Keep in mind that bindings will only protect against bones breaking, not ligaments.

And a fall caused by pre releases is very dangerous

 

[nnowak]

Before you crank up the DIN, verify that the forward pressure is set correctly. Too little forward pressure will make it easier for skis to pre-release. My background is racing, but two clicks of forward pressure can mean the difference between a DIN of 8 staying on and and DIN of 10 prereleasing. Assuming forward pressure is correct, maybe start with just moving the heel up 1 DIN setting.

 

[skipress]

I'm not aware of much research on high performance mogul skiers, there is a lot on alpine ski racers and binding settings.

This is conjecture on my part but I suspect that mogul skiers might be susceptible to 'pre release' as a result of 'Brown's bow' which is independent of binding settings. It can happen with a binding set at a notional 6 or 60.

"when the ski is pressed down into a trough well below a giant slalom gate, with skier weight far forward and deceleration of the weighted ski, and is not prevented by high heel release settings. This common heel “prerelease” corresponds to the new inadvertent heel release mechanism (“Brown's Bow”) identified by Brown and Ettlinger (ASTM STP 860, 1985, pp. 224–237). A related heel inadvertent release upon sudden unweighting is also suspected."

There can be a risk of a non setting related pre release causing an upward ratchet of settings [see also forward pressure as raised above].

 

[Doddsie]

My 13 year old son is also competing in freestyle moguls and had the same problem at the start of the season. The problem seemed to be the forward pressure and not the DIN's, once we got that right, the skis seem to only release when we'd want them to. His data for comparison.
Binding- Look NX 7
Boot - Lange RS90SC -length 266
Weight - 43kgs
Height - 152cm
Current DIN setting - 5.5
Thanks for any advice.

 

[silverback]

My 13 year old son is also competing in freestyle moguls and had the same problem at the start of the season. The problem seemed to be the forward pressure and not the DIN's, once we got that right, the skis seem to only release when we'd want them to. His data for comparison.
Binding- Look NX 7
Boot - Lange RS90SC -length 266
Weight - 43kgs
Height - 152cm
Current DIN setting - 5.5
Thanks for any advice.

I don’t have any data to support this but I wouldn’t trust an NX7 in this case (or for next year) when you can buy a pivot 12 for $150 at Corbetts right now.

+1 on getting the forward pressure right.

Also, make sure your athletes are protecting their boot soles with cat tracks or something similar EVERY time they are not on snow (they should look brand new at the end of the season) and making sure their boot soles and bindings are free of snow before clicking in.

 

[silverback]

This thread reminds me of the opening scene in Mollys Game, particularly 3:30 into this clip. Warning! Parents might want to skip it!

 

[Paul Lutes]

.... A very under-rated movie, for many reasons!

 

[Brian Finch]

Go with what your coach says, he is there, us on the internet are not.

^ what @Philpug says.

Yet I am here! Happy to take a look @ his set up. I’d start by looking @ the boot sole interface & the binding, then have the bindings tested.

That said, his coaches are legit. There’s just a ton of liability- I’d hit up Greg @ Equipe for a visual inspection / test as well. He’s a goto for some of my problems.

 

[Brian Finch]

^ @Wade - Tim says just text him.

 

[Wade]

^ what @Philpug says.

Yet I am here! Happy to take a look @ his set up. I’d start by looking @ the boot sole interface & the binding, then have the bindings tested.

That said, his coaches are legit. There’s just a ton of liability- I’d hit up Greg @ Equipe for a visual inspection / test as well. He’s a goto for some of my problems.

Thanks Brian. Agreed on the coaches - we’re very lucky to have our kids ski with and learn from guys like that.

My son didn’t ski his comp skis today given the ridiculously great conditions and probably won’t tmrw either, so that might be it for those skis and this question for the season. He’ll likely be in new boots next season and will need a remount or maybe new skis, so skier type 3, 3+ or something else in getting his bindings set up will probably wind up being a question for the fall.

 

[markojp]

Go with what your coach says, he is there, us on the internet are not.

Amazing how that works, eh?