Beginner carving skis with a catch

[Bruno Schull]

Hi.

I looking for beginner carving skis with a catch.

The catch is that 1) I'm relatively tall, heavy, and athletic, and I suspect that many beginner carving skis might not be supportive enough for me, and 2) It's not fair to say that I am a complete beginner. I am a beginner at carving, but I can ski fairly competently on and off piste.

Regarding the first point, I am 44 tears old, 6' 4" tall, and weigh 205 pounds. I'm athletic, and do lots of training of different kinds. I think I've been able to ski as well as I have (not to say that I'm any good) as a result of general fitness and leg strength, rather than specific ski technique.

Regarding the second point, I've been skiing about 15 years, 15-30 days per year. I live in Europe, and ski in the Alps. I can ski on all the pistes, steep, icy, black runs, whatever. I've been working a lot on skiing off piste, and can ski off piste in almost all conditions, except breakable crust, which is still hard, if not impossible for me. I love powder skiing, and am getting better. I also ski tour, nothing extreme, but I like to get into the back country. Finally, I sometimes use my touring skis to access alpine or ice climbs in the mountains, so sometimes I have to ski with a heavy pack, tired legs, on glaciers, and so on. I would say that I can ski effectively or functionally in decent conditions, if not beautifully and skillfully. In difficult conditions I struggle, but I do OK.

In all this time, I have never learned how to carve. I slash or slarve almost all my turns. Another way to say that is that I have never really leaned how to ski correctly. I am sure I have a whole range of bad habits. I can get down the mountain, and I have fun, but I could probably be a lot more efficient, controlled, and safe.

Last season, I decided to try to learn how to carve. I rented a pair of intermediate Elan carving skis, found a wide, low angle slope, and concentrated on aggressively rolling my skis onto the edges, mostly using my ankles and some body position. At first it was scary and unstable, like riding on ice skates, but then it began to come together. I could stay on the edges for long gradual arcs, and then I began to be able to link these arcs into turns. What a feeling! You don't slow down! You just keep accelerating! It's like having rockets on your skis! Amazing. I really think there is a "before" and an "after" when you finally get the feeling of carving. Anyway, I tried this several more times, on different days, on different pistes, with different skis, and I was able to recapture the feeling, but I am still at the beginning of the learning curve.

So this season I want to build on that feeling and keep learning. I am thinking of picking up some skis to help with this process.

I currently have two pairs of skis: an off piste soft snow ski with a 110 mm waist and substantial tip and tail rocker, and an all mountain ski with a 88 mm waist and light tip rocker.

I am thinking about something with a waist width about 70-80 mm, generous side cut, a tip and tail shape that will facilitate turn entry and exit, and a flex that will be easy to bend into different turn shapes, but that will also support my weight and heavy-footed, non-finesse ski style.

Speed isn't important to me at all--I don't need to carve fast, I just want to carve smoothly and comfortably.

I really like the Elan skis I tried. They were some kind of Amhibio model. I don't know if the Amphibio design is just hype, but, at least for me, it seemed to do what it was intended, which is make carving easier.

But I'm not set on Elan skis. I'm open to all suggestions.

Any ideas?

OK, sorry for the long post and thanks for your help.

 

[mdf]

I'm not convinced you need a "beginner carving ski." You've already had the "a ha!" moment.

Why not get a real slalom ski that will reward the proper movements?

 

[Tricia]

There is a ton of talk about Head's front size skis
K2 Charger series and Dynastar Speedzone series come to mind.

 

[PisteOff]

Check out Fischer's RC4 Curve Ti It's the lower end of the spectrum of the RC4 Curve series but is still a strong intermediate to advanced level carving ski. I know a couple guys on Curv's and they love them. My non race carving ski is the Rossignol Pursuit HP Ti.

 

[Jilly]

Or a Rossi Hero Master.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

I don't think a beginner carving ski is the right choice for you necessarily. You're a seasoned skier that lacks training... a beginner ski will feel like a noodle to you. I'd start with longer version of consumer SL-type skis, with the knowledge that eventually you're going to want something longer with a slightly larger radius given that you're skiing primarily in the Alps.

I would put the following on a short list:

• Fischer Curv DTX 178cm
• Fischer RC4 WC SC 170cm
• Fischer RC4 WC RC 175cm
• Head Supershape i.Speed 177cm
• Head WC i.SL 170cm
• Volkl Racetiger SL 170cm
• Elan SLX Fusion 170cm

 

[Bruno Schull]

Thanks for the replies so far. Very helpful. I tried hard to be honest about what I can and can not ski, but maybe you guys are right, and I should give myself a little more credit. I can ski basically anywhere on the mountain, but I also have really just learned the first feelings steps carving. I need practice, and I'm looking forward to making some smooth, fluids turns this season (or at least as smooth ans fluid as I can manage). So maybe I should bump up to a longer more intermediate ski. I'm open to all suggestions. One of the places where I ski every year has a great system between about 10 different ski shops, and with one registration you can rent skis from anywhere and return them anywhere, which is really really cool. So I will be able to try several different skis. Thanks again.

 

[trailtrimmer]

A Volkl Code L or Head Rally would both be a great move into the world of carving that will still tolerate a bit of afternoon chop with a moderate waist width. Both are rewarding when driven properly, but the Volkl will bite back a little more if you get back on your heels.

Are there any citizen or open racing on the mountains you visit? We have NASTAR and it's an incredible way to force good carving skills.

 

[PisteOff]

Are there any citizen or open racing on the mountains you visit? We have NASTAR and it's an incredible way to force good carving skills.

Very good point. Once you begin to get the hang of linking edged/carved turns get your ass in the gates. It's one thing to cruise down the hill and just cut a turn here, another there, etc. It's a whole different animal when you are forced to make those turns. It will teach you different turn shapes, it will teach you when to engage, when to push, how hard to push, how to get edge to edge fast, when to transition to hit a mark, etc. etc. etc. When you can run that SL/GS course without ever being flat flooted in the gates you'll be at the point where you've achieved a good degree of mastery. So look around for local racing leagues. I'd imagine they have something similar to NASTAR over there. We have adult leagues here as well. We call them beer leagues as most of them are sponsored by beer companies and a bit of drinking takes place.

I certainly wish you all the best. Keep us posted on your development! Cheers

 

[Tom K.]

The shorter the turn radius, the better, IMO, at this point of your carving learning curve.

A short radius will allow you to lay railroad tracks more confidently on steeper slopes, without having to hit speeds you may not (yet!) be comfortable with.

What a feeling, huh?! I can still remember my ah ha moment for carving (but I won't bore everybody with that story -- it was a long, long time ago).

 

[PTskier]

With your size and strength, and present ability, I think the longest in any of the lines listed for you will be great. Something like the Stockli Laser SC 177 cm, or Head Supershape i.Speed 177, or many others. You don't want a ski without a backbone. You want a ski with a narrow waist...66 to 77 mm, and a tight side cut...12 to 13 m. In many cases the narrower ski will be more carve-specific & packed run-specific. The slightly wider waist may be more versatile for thin fresh snow & crud. The choice is yours. Do demo. The ski that makes my feet happiest is likely different from the ski that makes your feet happiest.

 

[Philpug]

You are looking for a tecnical ski. There have been a ton of great options mentioned already what is also good, for you, is that you are in Europe and you get about 20% more skis like that there than we do here. Tricia mentioned the K2 Charger's, think of an American car that was designed for the Autobahn. The Chargers were not designed for the US market but for Europe and we just got to reap the rewards. The new Fischer Curves are really good. The Atomic X7 and X9 are stellar. The Head Supershape iSpeed and iMagnums are still considered the reference skis in the category. Volkl has the Codes. the list goes on and with skis like this, there are no bad ones and very few wrong ones.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Hi.

I looking for beginner carving skis with a catch.

The catch is that 1) I'm relatively tall, heavy, and athletic, and I suspect that many beginner carving skis might not be supportive enough for me, and 2) It's not fair to say that I am a complete beginner. I am a beginner at carving, but I can ski fairly competently on and off piste.

Regarding the first point, I am 44 tears old, 6' 4" tall, and weigh 205 pounds. I'm athletic, and do lots of training of different kinds. I think I've been able to ski as well as I have (not to say that I'm any good) as a result of general fitness and leg strength, rather than specific ski technique.

Regarding the second point, I've been skiing about 15 years, 15-30 days per year. I live in Europe, and ski in the Alps. I can ski on all the pistes, steep, icy, black runs, whatever. I've been working a lot on skiing off piste, and can ski off piste in almost all conditions, except breakable crust, which is still hard, if not impossible for me. I love powder skiing, and am getting better. I also ski tour, nothing extreme, but I like to get into the back country. Finally, I sometimes use my touring skis to access alpine or ice climbs in the mountains, so sometimes I have to ski with a heavy pack, tired legs, on glaciers, and so on. I would say that I can ski effectively or functionally in decent conditions, if not beautifully and skillfully. In difficult conditions I struggle, but I do OK.

In all this time, I have never learned how to carve. I slash or slarve almost all my turns. Another way to say that is that I have never really leaned how to ski correctly. I am sure I have a whole range of bad habits. I can get down the mountain, and I have fun, but I could probably be a lot more efficient, controlled, and safe.

Last season, I decided to try to learn how to carve. I rented a pair of intermediate Elan carving skis, found a wide, low angle slope, and concentrated on aggressively rolling my skis onto the edges, mostly using my ankles and some body position. At first it was scary and unstable, like riding on ice skates, but then it began to come together. I could stay on the edges for long gradual arcs, and then I began to be able to link these arcs into turns. What a feeling! You don't slow down! You just keep accelerating! It's like having rockets on your skis! Amazing. I really think there is a "before" and an "after" when you finally get the feeling of carving. Anyway, I tried this several more times, on different days, on different pistes, with different skis, and I was able to recapture the feeling, but I am still at the beginning of the learning curve.

So this season I want to build on that feeling and keep learning. I am thinking of picking up some skis to help with this process.

I currently have two pairs of skis: an off piste soft snow ski with a 110 mm waist and substantial tip and tail rocker, and an all mountain ski with a 88 mm waist and light tip rocker.

I am thinking about something with a waist width about 70-80 mm, generous side cut, a tip and tail shape that will facilitate turn entry and exit, and a flex that will be easy to bend into different turn shapes, but that will also support my weight and heavy-footed, non-finesse ski style.

Speed isn't important to me at all--I don't need to carve fast, I just want to carve smoothly and comfortably.

I really like the Elan skis I tried. They were some kind of Amhibio model. I don't know if the Amphibio design is just hype, but, at least for me, it seemed to do what it was intended, which is make carving easier.

But I'm not set on Elan skis. I'm open to all suggestions.

Any ideas?

OK, sorry for the long post and thanks for your help.

Sorry to burst your bubble, you are not looking for beginner carving skis. With approx 300 days under your belt in the alps no less you can likely ski just about anything you want without worry.

Question really comes down to do you want something a little forgiving or do you want something that thrills. For the thrills side definitely a GS race or masters ski. For the rest I’ll let others better advise that have more experience with those skis.

 

[cantunamunch]

Be aware that you will, at some point relatively soon in your carving development, be wanting to make boot changes. If you are making almost completely slarved turns, I'll wager it happens during edge-pressure gliding exercises, like traversing on the little toe edge.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Head Supershape iSpeed

 

[CrystalRose]

Be aware that you will, at some point relatively soon in your carving development, be wanting to make boot changes. If you are making almost completely slarved turns, I'll wager it happens during edge-pressure gliding exercises, like traversing on the little toe edge.

I'm sorry if I don't understand, but are you saying that his current boots are probably too large for the new edge control he is looking for or.... something else entirely...

 

[cantunamunch]

It's possible but there are more problem areas than just too large, including over or under canting, foot rotation, flex patterns and limits, cuff position, default front back balance, all of which become significantly more obvious as one begins work on carving skills.

 

[CrystalRose]

Ooooh, ok I see. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Bruno Schull]

I'd like to thank you all again for your comments.

You have helped me realize that I am not looking for a beginner carving ski but a technical ski.

I like the way oldschoolskier presented this as I choice between technical skis that are a little more thrilling and technical skis that are a little more forgiving.

I'm going to stay on the forgiving side of the spectrum. So I guess I can narrow my search to technical carving skis on the forgiving side of the spectrum.

I have one follow up question, and some specific responses to people who posted above. Each one of these points could probably generate a new discussion. I welcome thread drift. I learn lots from just reading how conversations evolve.

Elam Amphibio skis
The marketing suggests that the Amphibio shape makes turns easier to intiate, control, and exit. What's the general feeling about these skis? Is there any truth to the claims? Do they help people learn how to carve? Do more experienced skiers find the shape distracting? Just thought I would ask, because I had a good experience on some of these skis.

@ Traitrimme and Pisteoff. I have no doubt that racing is the crucible where good form is developed and bad habits are revealed. That said, I'm really just at the beginning of my own carving progression. Maybe I will think about it again when I can link some turns of different shapes on steep slopes in hard conditions (if I ever get there!).

@oldschoolskier...point taken. I'm guess I am not a beginner. But I probably overestimated by days on snow per year (I can't be the only one guilty of this kind of optimism).. Lets say I have 200 days on the snow. That includes half days, days skiing with my young daughter, ski touring, and so on. It's not just me out there working on my turns for hours at a time. I think if you saw me ski (and fall! ) you might revise your estimation. But I get what you're saying.

@HeluvaSkier is recommends a carving ski with a slightly longer radius (because I live in the Alps). @Tom K recommends a shorter radius ski so that I can start to make turns on steeper terrain at less than mach speeds. Thoughts?

@Tom K. I'd love to hear your "Ah ha" moment about carving! When I finally got it, was so suddenly clear, such an immediate difference, that I couldn't stop thinking about it for days. It's an amazing feeling!

@CrystalRose. Boots. Yes. You are right. But I have large, flat feet, with pronounced bunions, and nerve problems, which have already required one operation. I can't tolerate any side pressure on my forefoot, and I needs lots of room for the front half of my foot. So with all my footwear, street shoes, running shoes, hiking boots, and so on, I usually have to buy at least one side larger, just to get the width and space that I need. This is even true of climbing shoes--I rock climb in approach shoes, because it's impossible for me to wear rock climbing shoes. This obviously limits my climbing, but I accept that. It also means I have a built in excuse. If I can't climbing something, it's not because of my lack of skill...it's because of the shoes! The same is true of ski bots. I know this will sound heretical, but there is enough space in the front of my boots that sometimes when my skis move on the snow I can feel the boot shifting around my foot. It limits my control and ability to ski, but again I accept that. I generally buy the largest Mondo shell I can, 31.5 or 32, put in thick heat-moldable liner, install my prescription orthotics, and call it good. But I am quite sure any experienced boot fitter would tell me I have waaayyyy too much space in there. And I will probably notice this extra space and movement much more as my carving skills improve.

OK, hope to be on the slopes soon,

Bruno

 

[François Pugh]

I don't think a beginner carving ski is the right choice for you necessarily. You're a seasoned skier that lacks training... a beginner ski will feel like a noodle to you. I'd start with longer version of consumer SL-type skis, with the knowledge that eventually you're going to want something longer with a slightly larger radius given that you're skiing primarily in the Alps.

I would put the following on a short list:

• Fischer Curv DTX 178cm
• Fischer RC4 WC SC 170cm
• Fischer RC4 WC RC 175cm
• Head Supershape i.Speed 177cm
• Head WC i.SL 170cm
• Volkl Racetiger SL 170cm
• Elan SLX Fusion 170cm

My list would be Fischer RC4 WC SC 170 cm OR Fischer RC4 WC RC 180 cm, depending on how fast you typically enjoy skiing.
The SC without a doubt would be the best ticket to improve with and learn carving technique, shorter radius more turns per run and for your skiing dollar, easier to learn at slower speeds and all that.

On the other hand if you like skiing fast, and you certainly have the real estate to do so on the hills you ski, the RC4 will suit you better. Not that you can't ski fast with the SC, just that the RC is better at locking into a cleaner groove when you are turning with the radius you will be making at higher speeds. It's not just about learning, it's about having fun too.

Some folk might tell you that the SC/RC is too unforgiving. Do not believe them; with the factory tune (1:3) it is easy to ski and will let you get away with a ton of crap other more demanding skis won't.