Individual Review CARV

[Mike King]

For those of you interested in the upcoming app, here's a few screens from the beta. The main screen has an overall score as well as metrics for balance, edging and pressure:

There's additional info on the run, including location (with bugs), descent, number of turns, and max edge angle (also a bug on this at the moment):

Looking under the Balance metric, we have two additional metrics: forward stance and foot roll.

Under edging, we've got a few items. One is a graph describing inside and outside edge angle -- the top of the screen is the bottom of the turn so that left footed/turns to the right are on the left and vice versa.

There's some interesting tidbits to be picked out of the edge angle graph. It would appear I hold the outside edge on my right footed turn a bit longer than in my left footed turn. In this run, my average edge angle was 48 degrees. It also appears I'm getting relatively early edging, although that's something I'm still working on trying to improve.

Additional edging metrics are found by scrolling down the page:

I need to work on the symmetry and smoothness, I guess.

The pressure data is also interesting:

Carv thinks my right (foot? turn?) is stronger. It might be helpful to know if that is right turn, or right foot. Looking at the pressure graph, I would guess it is the left foot/right turn that is stronger, but I'm putting in a question to see if they have an answer,..

In general, I think this is a much more usable software version than the previous one...

Mike

 

[textrovert]

New app looking good
I initially thought the loss of colors would be a negative. But those screens look fine.

I had my first "hiccup" with the units today. I tried edge angle monitor and every turn was either 0 or 1 degree real-time on my headphones. But at the end of the session, when I looked in the app, it had reasonable edge angles. Not sure what happened there. Will try again tomorrow.

 

[textrovert]

App update released today.

 

[Steve]

Well I just put in a request to return my system. I'm just not into it. I can't say I completely trust the data, and combine that with not really enjoying finishing a good morning of skiing only to look at a long list of all the things I did that were mediocre, some accurate, some maybe not, I don't know. Combine the blow to my ego with my doubting the accuracy of the criticism and it's even worse than failing a PSIA skiing exam. The Examiners and the benchmarks may be inconsistent, but I trust they were actually looking at me, as compared to wondering if some high tech sensors are accurately measuring what I'm doing.

If I was training for an exam I might feel differently, but right now in my life I'm trying to enjoy my skiing, and this is taking away from it for me.

 

[cantunamunch]

Interesting.

 

[Brad J]

I'm trying to enjoy my skiing, and this is taking away from it for me.

THIS is why I won't buy one

 

[graham418]

I just finished my 3rd day with the Carv, and 2 of the days were spent in session. I just had it in free ski mode, and I found it interesting. The lady chirping at the beginning of the run ' you got this' or ' go get em tiger' is a bit tiresome, but the feedback when you get on the lift is helpful. It is very general tips , but it is a gentle reminder to do things the way you should. I haven't tried the drills, but I would save that for the days I am skiing alone. In Ontario, there isn't much adventure, so it is a way of keeping occupied or distracted while you tackle the 700ft hills.
It is interesting to see everything you did at the end of the day. Every run, lift , how many turns, vert, distance, time skiing, resting, and all the other stuff like edging and pressures , symmetry, etc.
I didn't feel it took anything away from my enjoyment at all

 

[Steve]

Folks, this is more about me than about CARV. I'm a bit of a head case about my skiing, and have made huge improvements this year. What I need at this point in my life is to feel good about my skiing after years of feeling subpar. I may still be so, but if I feel in control on a steeper icy trail, don't feel like I'm bracing against my equipment that much, I like the feeling at the end of the run. To then see at the end of the day that my metrics hadn't improved since 3 days ago, when I KNOW I'm skiing better is just no help to my fragile self-image.

 

[Steve]

If anyone is interested in buying my unit, please let me know. I'm awaiting return info and they may not give me a full refund, I'm not sure, plus I may have to pay to ship them to Dublin.

I bought it for $279 early season, they're $349 now. The most I hope to get back is the full amount less shipping, so I could sell them for $250 shipped and be in great shape, so make me an offer.

Since the sensors go under the liner, my foot has not touched them, they look almost new.

 

[Mike King]

@Steve, sorry it wasn't your cup of tea. One thing to realize is that the metrics are scoring a whole run -- so if you had to shut stuff down because of traffic, or were skiing a section of super firm run, it is going to score that as well as those turns that you were sure were better. That's why I tend not to look at the average metrics, but instead focus on using the device for real-time external feedback.

This means that I'm using it in monitor mode working on a specific element of my skiing. Say edge angle, or early edge engagement, or fore/aft balance. Foot to foot pressure is also in there. When you are working on something specific, the scoring can tell you if you are accomplishing your objective or not. When you finish the run, you may find that the overall score doesn't reflect the success you thought you were achieving. An example was my going out and working on early pressure last Friday. I started with individual turns scoring in the 60% range. I started working on different strategies to get the pressure earlier -- toppling more laterally across the skis? Nope. Getting on the old outside ski before edge change and rolling across the heel? Bingo. Now I was able to put multiples of turns together with the metric at 100.

But if you go look at the overall metric, it is only in the 80's. See, this is the aggregation bias problem. The "good" turns are being scored with the "bad" ones, where the bad ones may include the transport to the lift (perhaps working on single foot skiing, perhaps just doodling along), avoiding traffic, or shutting things down because it's a bit too steep or firm.

I don't want to suggest that the aggregate metrics aren't useful -- they can be. They might measure mastery in that they may measure whether the movement patterns have become autonomous. But I also find that as I train one set of items, other elements may diminish. For example, as I've focused on edging issues, I find that I'm starting to revert to being a bit too forward on the ski. But that's good to know as well. It's a challenge to change the movement patterns, and integrating everything together takes focus as well.

So, I'm sorry that Carv isn't giving you what you want. I only provide this to see if thinking about a different way of using it might still provide you with a tool that you find will reinforce your learning. Best to you.

Mike

 

[graham418]

^^^^ I saw the same thing. Runs where we were doing drills or specific exercises, my Ski IQ went way down. But I knew I wasn't skiing poorly, it was just the machine.

 

[Steve]

Yes @Mike King those are very good points. I used monitor mode once and found it very annoying, but that was just once. Usually things are better after you get used to them and learn how to use them. I just had this epiphany yesterday that I wanted to get my money back while it was almost new and focus on intrinsic gratification this season. How things feel to me.

I feel much more in control, balanced and separated then in the past based on the Gellie vids and on telephone coaching with Jerry. It's awesome. I'm going to build on that from how I feel, rather than how I look, or how data shows I was doing.

Years ago I decided that my goal was to be able to ski whatever I was skiing in control and not defensively. If I could do that on most slopes and conditions I come across, I'm an expert in my mind.

Don't get me wrong btw, I am still striving for performance turns, and will continue to get virtual coaching through sending video to Tom and Jerry

Just the wrong time in my life for that tool. Similar reason to why I stopped being evaluated by Examiners after multiple failures. I'm just too old to be judged, by man or machine.

 

[textrovert]

But if you go look at the overall metric, it is only in the 80's. See, this is the aggregation bias problem. The "good" turns are being scored with the "bad" ones, where the bad ones may include the transport to the lift (perhaps working on single foot skiing, perhaps just doodling along), avoiding traffic, or shutting things down because it's a bit too steep or firm.

This was one of my feature asks right after my first day of use - ability to have CARV "watching" you turns for sections of a "run" and not the entire top to bottom of the chair.

Reason- I have a great groomer to practice and get scored on. But getting to it requires entry via a mogul area and exit via a cat track and choke point that requires skidding. A mechanism to turn "watch free ski" on and off in just the groomer section would give me a more accurate CARV SkiIQ.

Of course, you could always argue that event when not carving, you need to maintain the same good balance, outer-inner pressure, edge smoothness, etc and that improvements would show for the entire top to bottom. But having a section option would be nice for those of us who don't have a top to bottom pristine groomer always accessible.

 

[Wannabeskibum]

App update released today.

Well, after my app updated, my IQ from last year got dumber! It seems as though they have fiddled with the algorithms. My highest run last year was in the low 130's (an empty East Fall @ Killington where I could just ski without constantly looking left and right for snowboarders. After the re-scoring, let's just say I am not as "smart". Oh well, I know what I need to work on - I guess I better get to standing on the outside leg, working on rolling those ankles and thinking more about 2 4 2.

 

[mikes781]

@Wannabeskibum Im right there with you. My IQ took a nose dive which is probably closer reality.

 

[oldfashoned]

If anyone is interested in buying my unit, please let me know. I'm awaiting return info and they may not give me a full refund, I'm not sure, plus I may have to pay to ship them to Dublin.

I bought it for $279 early season, they're $349 now. The most I hope to get back is the full amount less shipping, so I could sell them for $250 shipped and be in great shape, so make me an offer.

Since the sensors go under the liner, my foot has not touched them, they look almost new.

What size are the sensor pads?

 

[Steve]

Size E: 25.0 - 27.5

 

[Mike King]

Yes @Mike King those are very good points. I used monitor mode once and found it very annoying, but that was just once. Usually things are better after you get used to them and learn how to use them. I just had this epiphany yesterday that I wanted to get my money back while it was almost new and focus on intrinsic gratification this season. How things feel to me.

I feel much more in control, balanced and separated then in the past based on the Gellie vids and on telephone coaching with Jerry. It's awesome. I'm going to build on that from how I feel, rather than how I look, or how data shows I was doing.

Years ago I decided that my goal was to be able to ski whatever I was skiing in control and not defensively. If I could do that on most slopes and conditions I come across, I'm an expert in my mind.

Don't get me wrong btw, I am still striving for performance turns, and will continue to get virtual coaching through sending video to Tom and Jerry

Just the wrong time in my life for that tool. Similar reason to why I stopped being evaluated by Examiners after multiple failures. I'm just too old to be judged, by man or machine.

There you go. It’s good to know what you want and you do. Have a great season!

 

[Steve]

You too Mike and may you achieve that Level 3 soon!

 

[Mike King]

You too Mike and may you achieve that Level 3 soon!

Thanks. I think my groomer skiing is there. Now for terrain!

merry Christmas everyone!