Deb Armstrong: A critical look at the PSIA Technical Model

[Chris V.]

I much like Deb's "core values."

On the carving vs. brushing discussion: I've seen that a real challenge for newer skiers is to learn to modulate through the spectrum between edge locked and skidding. Then you'll see many intermediates who can't do railroad tracks, can't carve. And others who can't get out of the carve. Both are manifestations of the same basic skill deficiency. I've been with fairly advanced skiers who say they can't do short turns. Guess why.

This is a skill development that needs to be addressed very early in a skier's learning pathway. I do have a concern that most instructional materials, and most training sessions on instructional methods in which I've participated, give this short shrift. It's likely that there are many instructors who are personally capable of skiing anywhere on the spectrum, but don't really understand the mechanics of what they're doing, hence aren't well equipped to teach it.

A gliding wedge will naturally result in a brushing outside ski-- but there's a risk of a student defensively making too large a wedge, resulting in something more akin to linked sideways skids. When moving on to parallel turns, many students struggle achieving good brushing. The movement pattern ends up being characterized more by straight traverses on edge, joined together by rather abrupt heel skids.

Carving and brushing are both absolutely essential skills for being able to ski the whole mountain in control and gracefully.

 

[James]

The air quality is now even worse from the smoke of this straw man argument. It’s not even an argument. I don’t know where this edge locked nonsense came from. It’s a non issue.

 

[Mike King]

@James it seems to me there are two topics, at least, that are present in this thread. First is Deb Armstrong's video, which besides setting the World Cup as an ideal for identifying and mastering technique, seems to suggest a return to an old PSIA teaching model: the centerline. Next is a discussion differentiation between skidded and edge locked ski performance. This is the segment that I think I could contribute to.

To me, the issue isn't edge locked versus skidded, it is rather the fifth fundamental in PSIA's model: regulate the pressure created by the ski/snow interface. That fundamental is not easy to understand, but what I've started to understand it to mean is the ability manipulate the timing and magnitude of pressure in the ski turn. What WC skiers do so well is change the timing and magnitude of pressure to send their mass in a direction that they chose. They do it in a manner that preserves potential energy so that they can preserve their line, their speed, and convert that potential energy into speed through the course.

Sean Warman's video above shows this but states it in different words.

In my opinion, the fifth fundamental is the one that differentiates advanced from expert skiers.

So, how do you achieve the fifth fundamental? The other 4 plus tactics plus environment plus equipment.

Mike

 

[markojp]

Can't speak for an entire organization, but I coach versatility and the ability to do what you want, when you want/need in the moment/terrain/goals at hand. Solid fundamentals are applicable to all disciplines and levels of skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...Then you'll see many intermediates who can't do railroad tracks, can't carve. And others who can't get out of the carve. Both are manifestations of the same basic skill deficiency. I've been with fairly advanced skiers who say they can't do short turns. Guess why.
....This is a skill development that needs to be addressed very early in a skier's learning pathway. I do have a concern that most instructional materials, and most training sessions on instructional methods in which I've participated, give this short shrift....

One of the things missing from all these proposed lists of "fundamentals" is how exactly to make a turn happen. Most lists of fundamentals ignore the fact that there are different types of turns and correspondingly different types of initiations.

Skiers taking lessons need to know that there's a spectrum of basic turn types. Railroad tracks are at one end of the spectrum, and pivot slips are at the other. Everything else is a hybrid of these two, lying somewhere in between them on the spectrum.

When a student learns to do railroad tracks, that skier will own the fundamental movement pattern that will serve as the base for learning to carve at increasingly higher levels of sophistication.

When a student learns to do pivot slips, that skier will own the fundamental movement pattern on which are based all the increasingly skillful versions of brushed turns.

The blending of both railroad track type turns and pivot slippy turns will open up amazing new technical expertise -- if a skier continues to pursue higher levels of skills. A skier who has invested in taking lessons needs to be taught how to do both.

When a list of "fundamentals" avoids attending to these two different types of turns and their different initiation movement patterns, then that list is missing something essential.

I find it sad that different types of turns and their initiations are not addressed in every list of "fundamentals." Talking about balance and skiing from outside foot to outside foot is essential, talking about balancing over the skis is essential, but not talking at all about how to start a turn is like leaving out the verb in a sentence. What to actually do has been left out.

 

[JESinstr]

IMO there cannot be different types of turns (in the plural) when we talk about a ski turn in the singular. We can only talk about the mechanics and purity of the resultant redirection.

As I posted earlier, the ski can only slide, or it can carve. The condition called skidding that lies between the two is what needs to be intentionally regulated by the skier.

The Stivot is the ultimate example of tactical redirection. It shouldn't be considered a TYPE of turn, but a redirection progression that utilizes the extremes between sliding and carving.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes, there are thinkers who like to say there's only one turn, and all the variations are just that - variations of one aspect or another. That point can be argued and it makes sense - in theory. But in practice, focusing on the differences are more concrete and useful for teaching and learning.

It's the desire to describe fundamentals in such a way that they apply to all turns, skis and snowboards alike, that has lead PSIA to leave out initiations.

What's my evidence? For a skier to learn to do railroad tracks when all they've ever done is skidded/brushed turns is very difficult. The movement pattern requires purging the pivot. Eliminating any and all rotation of the ski by the body is not a tweak, nor a morphing of the "One Turn." This difference is a categorical one.

I've found it much more useful as a skier and as a teacher to think in terms of the differences rather than the similarities while sliding on snow.

 

[Seldomski]

Those same fundamental principles of technique can be applied to every level of skier.

I agree with all that, except that no one should be taught in a way that leads to a intermediate plateau. If learners want to stop learning at a static turn, that's fine, but they should be taught skills that can lead to more and more dynamic skiing if or when they want to go there.

Agree. Watching Deb's video again, I am struck with the importance of BALANCE in her model as well as the 'Slalom Pyramid.' Without good balance, everything else falls apart. With low mileage and little specific work on balance in the off season, 'good skiing' is not possible. I know of many other skiers like this. You can also 'ski athletically' with poor balance - ie work really hard because your balance is bad and you aren't able to direct pressure where it needs to go for good control. I have a lot of experience doing this .

The overall premise of using racers as a technical model sounds simple, but is really complex. There isn't a perfect turn. The foundational mechanics employed can be taught. There are better and worse turns for a particular condition and for what you are trying to achieve. So teaching to some ideal turn that doesn't actually exist... sounds confusing.

I do like distilling most lessons to teaching simply balance, stance, and foot to foot. Stance is a bit of a weird one because there isn't a single position you should always be in. So maybe a different word would be better there?

 

[Brian Finch]

One of the things missing from all these proposed lists of "fundamentals" is how exactly to make a turn happen. Most lists of fundamentals ignore the fact that there are different types of turns and correspondingly different types of initiations.

IDK here, I think that all turns should be initiated by the feet (ankle pronation) followed closely there after be hip internal rotation. I will say that its odd that we can't come to a consensus on this. Recently, I was at a camp for myself & the coach asked how down the rabbit hole they could go w/ me. My response was "dive in". I was then told that I was looking blocked at my ankles & to get off the hill until I sorted out my boots. Had em punched that day & it was as if an entirely new joint opened on leg for my skiing. Video confirmation was astounding.

 

[wolcoma]

I have been coaching ski racing (part-time club coach) for 35 years mostly at U12 & U14 age groups and in reality 90% of what we are coaching is "PSIA ski instruction 101". It's really not that much different than traditional ski school lessons. The only difference is our kids are all at least intermediate youth skiers, meaning they can ski most of the terrain on the mountain. So my job is to teach them how to carve turns, use a pole plant (really a pole touch), and the importance of upper and lower body separation. When we are in the gates it's really more about tactics and line than technique. For example, I love taking the kids through the moguls or at least what I call "icy, bumpy, and gnarly terrain". While I can't speak for the western powder group, if kids can ski well on icy, bumpy, and gnarly terrain (meaning cross ruts, uneven grooming, mix of ice, granular, and soft snow, etc,) then they can ski nearly every ski resort in the world. Last winter I was skiing with my racers at Stowe during New Year's weekend, primarily because our ski area closed for a few days. When we got on the lift we realized that not one trail was groomed and it was literally a mixture of bumps and lots of bare spots in between. Even I was tired after the first run, but then we stayed out all day (also in the rain) and we got more out of that skiing than a full day of running gates, etc. That's why I think free skiing in all kinds of terrain is huge whether you're a recreational skier, racer, or even freestyle/terrain park athlete.

 

[Tony S]

IDK here, I think that all turns should be initiated by the feet (ankle pronation) followed closely there after be hip internal rotation. I will say that its odd that we can't come to a consensus on this. Recently, I was at a camp for myself & the coach asked how down the rabbit hole they could go w/ me. My response was "dive in". I was then told that I was looking blocked at my ankles & to get off the hill until I sorted out my boots. Had em punched that day & it was as if an entirely new joint opened on leg for my skiing. Video confirmation was astounding.

There is a whole new joint? EXCELLENT! I want one!

 

[KingGrump]

That's why I think free skiing in all kinds of terrain is huge whether you're a recreational skier, racer, or even freestyle/terrain park athlete.

 

[Brian Finch]

There is a whole new joint? EXCELLENT! I want one!

I should say an additional one!

My point is that if the ankles / feet don't work, everything else is just a compensation. Learned more boot hacks / tricks @ this camp to play w/ all summer.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Not all skidding/brushing is the same. There is that produced by twisting a relatively flat ski and there is that produced by controlling the edge angle and fore-aft balance in order to allow the edges to slip to whatever degree is desired. The mechanics of these two are entirely distinct.

 

[oldschoolskier]

There are two things that hinder progress for skiers, its balance (in all axis) and edge feel.

Learn these two seemingly simple yet complex concept's and everything you do skiing becomes vastly easier.

If you look at skiers on the slopes regardless of ability and difficulty of the slopes, when you see problems and errors it comes down to these two issues.

So want to improve and expand your skill set, work on these two items.

 

[fatbob]

There are two things that hinder progress for skiers, its balance (in all axis) and edge feel.

I'm always balanced if only I could master that tricky time axis.

 

[JESinstr]

Agree. Watching Deb's video again, I am struck with the importance of BALANCE in her model as well as the 'Slalom Pyramid.' Without good balance, everything else falls apart. With low mileage and little specific work on balance in the off season, 'good skiing' is not possible. I know of many other skiers like this. You can also 'ski athletically' with poor balance - ie work really hard because your balance is bad and you aren't able to direct pressure where it needs to go for good control. I have a lot of experience doing this .

Why is this new news? Below was the fundamentals until the fundamentals came along.

 

[JESinstr]

Yes, there are thinkers who like to say there's only one turn, and all the variations are just that - variations of one aspect or another. That point can be argued and it makes sense - in theory. But in practice, focusing on the differences are more concrete and useful for teaching and learning.

It's the desire to describe fundamentals in such a way that they apply to all turns, skis and snowboards alike, that has lead PSIA to leave out initiations.

What's my evidence? For a skier to learn to do railroad tracks when all they've ever done is skidded/brushed turns is very difficult. The movement pattern requires purging the pivot. Eliminating any and all rotation of the ski by the body is not a tweak, nor a morphing of the "One Turn." This difference is a categorical one.

I've found it much more useful as a skier and as a teacher to think in terms of the differences rather than the similarities while sliding on snow.

I understand but in the example you provided, the issue is redirection initiated via rotary skills which leads to skidding vs redirection initiated via edging and pressure skills which leads to carving. With the carving approach, the ability to "de- edge "and" de- pressure" into a skidding condition is a lot easier than trying to build into a skidding condition with undeveloped edging and pressure skills.

With the modern technology, I question why we would continue to teach beginners rotary initiated turns in the first place.

 

[Snuckerpooks]

Why is this new news? Below was the fundamentals until the fundamentals came along.
View attachment 205302

This year the SAJ (Ski Association of Japan) here in Japan was really pushing dynamic turns and balance (things outermost in the diagram) more than anything. Things like getting skiers out of the rail turn and into a more dynamic carving turn with more tip and tail usage in the top and bottom of the turn. And also learning to control edge feathering and sliding when doing short turns Also skiing in a centered position that allows from a wider range of movements.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'm wondering if Deb's core values, which have a lot of words, actually contradict PSIA's current list of five fundamentals, or if they add details that are supposedly embedded in the five PSIA offers, or if they focus on what a skier needs to do in a categorically different way.
Is it obvious that her list is more race-oriented?

Here are PSIA's five fundamentals (current unless they've changed them again):

Here are Deb's Core Fundamentals from the video: