Edge Sharpening Advice: 2020 Volkl M5 Mantras Have curling edges?

[caliksier]

Hi, I have a pair of 2020 Volkl M5 Mantras. I have skied on them about 40 days (3 seasons) without ever sharpening them. I have noticed that on ice there is really no real grab unless I press in hard. I went to an "Epic Mountain Gear" Store in Denver on the last trip and the tech there showed me that my edges have curled around and upward upward away from the snow such that if I make my fingers like a claw, I can actually hold the edges of the skis using the very tips of my fingernails with the back of the ski facing me. They said $10 to put them on the machine to have them sharpened, and I said go for it! They said they will be done in 4 days... Well I was on a ski trip, I live in OKC, so I could not have them do it....

So here are my questions...
1. Does my curling edge description make any sense? Do you understand what problem I am having? The tech at EMG seamed to act like this is a common thing.
2. Sun and Ski Sports wants to do it for me in Oklahoma City for $60, that seams like a lot. It is not done manually, its done by a machine. Is that a better option?
3. Can I do it myself? Some notes here... I do everything myself, I wax my skis, replace my cars timing belt, replaced my inground pool liner, I'm an engineer. I have not sharpened skis yet, but I say that about everything.
4. Will sharpening the skis (either option) get me back to a factory edge?

I would like to try to do it myself but I don't want to mess up my skis, $60 seams steep. Next trip is to Breck right before Christmas.

What thoughts / experience do you have?

 

[BC.]

Look up previous threads…..Google/YouTube Toko ski tuning…You can definitely do it yourself.

If you figure out what you want/need…a lot of us have supplies that we would be willing to sell/let you have for a good price…

 

[caliksier]

Look up previous threads…..Google/YouTube Toko ski tuning…You can definitely do it yourself.

If you figure out what you want/need…a lot of us have supplies that we would be willing to sell/let you have for a good price…

Hey thanks for the response, definition question... Is "tuning" and "sharpening" the same procedure?

 

[KingGrump]

What thoughts / experience do you have?

Thoughts - Here we go again.
Experience - Some.

Short answer -
Of course it can be fixed.
The simplest way to get rid of the burr on the side edge is to take a file to it.

I do realize you are new here. So I'll be nice.

Longer answer -
There is a whole sub-forum on tuning here. Try reading through some of those threads first.
Side edge work - Here is a side edge tuning video.

Correct answer -
With 40 days on the skis, you probably need a "full tune". That should include a base grind, reset the base bevel, sharpen the side edge to the angle of your choice and a coat of wax. Some of the work can be performed by a competent person but base grinding will usually require a shop with a decent set up.
If you want to take up tuning, read up on tuning. Get the required tools and practice.

Good luck.

BTW, what does that $60 buy you? $60 is expensive for a deburr but a steal for a good full tune. So again what are you buying with your $60?

 

[BC.]

Hey thanks for the response, definition question... Is "tuning" and "sharpening" the same procedure?

Yes..

 

[caliksier]

Thoughts - Here we go again.
Experience - Some.

Short answer -
Of course it can be fixed.
The simplest way to get rid of the burr on the side edge is to take a file to it.

I do realize you are new here. So I'll be nice.

Longer answer -
There is a whole sub-forum on tuning here. Try reading through some of those threads first.
Side edge work - Here is a side edge tuning video.

Correct answer -
With 40 days on the skis, you probably need a "full tune". That should include a base grind, reset the base bevel, sharpen the side edge to the angle of your choice and a coat of wax. Some of the work can be performed by a competent person but base grinding will usually require a shop with a decent set up.
If you want to take up tuning, read up on tuning. Get the required tools and practice.

Good luck.

BTW, what does that $60 buy you? $60 is expensive for a deburr but a steal for a good full tune. So again what are you buying with your $60?

Thanks for the help, I think I posted in that sub-forum, your link takes me back here. I just got back from dinner and will check your video and review the threads on the forum.
$60 is sharpening the edge and a hand wax.
$90 to do a base grind, sharpen the edge and hand wax. I don't think I need a base grind, my bases are in pretty descent shape, I am skiing mostly with my little kids, not off with my buddies as much.

 

[caliksier]

Yes..

Thanks, is Toyo the tool of choice on this site?

 

[caliksier]

At the Big Sky Madison base they have a special where they will wax and sharpen your skis while you have lunch .... for $40. My solution has been liquid paraffin. I brush and wipe my bases to clean them off, spray on the wax and leave the skis out base up in the sun while I have lunch. Works well on a warm day, just make sure you bases are dry before spraying on the wax

I saw this on another thread, I am going to Breck in December if they have something like that, I might just do that.

 

[BC.]

Thanks, is Toyo the tool of choice on this site?

I do like Toko…I have many of their products that I use at home and shop, but I also have other brands as well…depending on what specific tool I am using.

I recommended Toko/…because I found their video clinics to be very good…

 

[Eric@ict]

I went down this bunny hole a couple of years ago. Being from the Midwest also, it’s hard to find good local resources to draw from. Here is the thread when I started asking questions. The folks here were very helpful. Highly recommend watching youtube videos.

You pro tuners make it look easy!

I’ve always had a shop take care of my skis, which meant 3-4 times a year I visited them and watched as they worked their magic. This year, I decided to wax and tune myself. Waxing is a true art form. Using old skis, my first coat was very heavy and I didn’t let them cool enough. No need for...

www.skitalk.com

 

[Tony S]

Is "tuning" and "sharpening" the same procedure?

No. I would say that all sharpening is tuning but not all tuning is sharpening. Sharpening is kind of shorthand for edge angle maintenance, which itself is about more than whether the edge is "sharp." Beyond that there is a whole sphere of work around maintaining and waxing the base.

 

[Tony S]

The tech at EMG seamed to act like this is a common thing.

Yes. Skis need regular tuning over their lifetimes. Basically you have a teenager that was born at home and has never been taken to the doctor. For perspective, avid skiers who habitually ski on hard snow may touch up their edges as frequently as every ski day.

 

[Tricia]

Thanks, is Toyo the tool of choice on this site?

Toko is a sponsor of SkiTalk.com so we have a lot of knowledge about their products and many members tend to support those who support us.

 

[silverback]

I don't think I need a base grind, my bases are in pretty descent shape, I am skiing mostly with my little kids, not off with my buddies as much…
Will sharpening the skis (either option) get me back to a factory edge?

Everyone is different but a good number of us here have new ski bases ground and edges set by a competent shop before skiing them. Factory edge angles are not always set where we like them and are often irregular. Some like to change the structure in the bases to match the conditions. Instead of trying to match the factory finish, look to match how you like to ski them. After 40 days, I bet most of your structure is worn down anyway.
My advice is to find a shop that works on race skis. Have them do a full grind and tune. Have them set your bevels at 1 degree for the base and 2 degrees for the sides. Buy vices, a file guide and some diamond files and start by regularly maintaining and honing the side edge. Don’t do much to the base edge other than de-burring, it easy to screw up the base bevel.
For skis that see icy or firm snow, I like to keep them sharp so they get attention almost every time out. I sometimes even switch right and left ski mid-day to get a fresh edge. For soft snow skis, I am a bit lazier but they still get waxed every couple uses and sharpened every once in a while. 40 uses and I’ll have them ground.
As an engineer who is handy with tools, I think you’ll find satisfaction in learning to tune and feeling the difference in your skis. Next, ask about mounting your own bindings…

 

[cantunamunch]

I don't think I need a base grind, my bases are in pretty descent shape, I am skiing mostly with my little kids, not off with my buddies as much.

That's fine but remember that there's no way to reset the base-side edge bevels to zero without grinding the base.

Not having proper base-side edge bevels will absolutely affect grip - and you're already having a problem with that.

Given the choices, in your shoes, I would go for the full shop treatment now and do the next season of side-edge sharpening myself.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Buy the side edge file guide and a file. They are good to have anyways to maintain the edge. If that doesn’t help them off to the shop you go. Either way it’s not worth saving $100 to fall on ice and get all busted up.

 

[KingGrump]

I like to think of the edge burrs as relocation of existing metal of the ski edge. Some of it comes from the side edge and some from the base edge. Addressing the side edge issues and neglecting the base edge is basically a half a** job.

A 200 grit diamond stone and an edge guide will probably a good initial purchase for the current and future work.
The diamond stone will be more effective on the case hardened burrs.

However, from the tone of the conversation thus far, appears the OP is just bouncing pre-conceived corrective measures off the forum since he is already confident of both the issues and the required solution. If that is the case, never mind, carry on.

 

[Tony S]

I don't think I need a base grind, my bases are in pretty descent [sic] shape

Why do you think so?

 

[Scruffy]

$90 to do a base grind, sharpen the edge and hand wax. I don't think I need a base grind, my bases are in pretty descent shape, I am skiing mostly with my little kids, not off with my buddies as much.

Yeah, you need a base grind after 40 days ( probably needed one before they first hit the snow when new ), and $90 is not outrageous. The machine grinding your skis probably cost half a million $$$s. How much to you pay to have your oil changed in your vehicle?

 

[Atomicman]

Thanks for the help, I think I posted in that sub-forum, your link takes me back here. I just got back from dinner and will check your video and review the threads on the forum.
$60 is sharpening the edge and a hand wax.
$90 to do a base grind, sharpen the edge and hand wax. I don't think I need a base grind, my bases are in pretty descent shape, I am skiing mostly with my little kids, not off with my buddies as much.

You most definitely need a base grind. This brings the base edge bevel to -0- degrees and flattens the base and levels the base with the edge. The point isn't that you need gouges repaired , it is all about the geometry. Although a good base (p-tex only) structure will also improve the skis performance and ability to hold wax.