Your doing great but you need some on the hill , real time feedback. As for lessons being expensive, yes they are but you have to look at it as a return on investment; you will advance at a faster rate , likely enjoying the time and money you’re already spending on skiing to a greater advantage.
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Feedback on carving for a beginner
- Thread starter wildest_comfortable
- Start date
It is an investment. To get better you have to pay your dues on the slopes. Sometimes-quite literally. After the initial couple of lessons you will at least need someone-a friend perhaps who has an eye for technique to correct you.
With time you will develop an eye for your own skiing. The better you get the less lessons and external help you will need.
Yeah, it sucks, I know but there is no way around it…
Look at the bright side-if you were able to achieve so much on your own in two seasons only, you will not need tons of lessons.
@wildest_comfortable I think it's worth asking what are your goals for your carving? Do you want to race? Be able to lay it over and drag your hip like Paul Lorenz? Just for enjoyment/control?
Mid week group lessons not during spring break/around a holiday weekend are a cheaper way to go, you just need to make it clear to the instructor that carving is something you want to work on. Also, something like Projected Productions or Big Picture Skiing are amazing (paid) resources that can really help improve your skiing if you take the time to digest the information and then put in the drill time. You seem pretty athletic and if you have decent proprioception/body awareness, I think a couple in person lessons and a good amount of time doing purposeful practice with drills can get you to a good recreational level without dropping a ton of money.
Mid week group lessons not during spring break/around a holiday weekend are a cheaper way to go, you just need to make it clear to the instructor that carving is something you want to work on. Also, something like Projected Productions or Big Picture Skiing are amazing (paid) resources that can really help improve your skiing if you take the time to digest the information and then put in the drill time. You seem pretty athletic and if you have decent proprioception/body awareness, I think a couple in person lessons and a good amount of time doing purposeful practice with drills can get you to a good recreational level without dropping a ton of money.
The goal for me is to become an expert skier as fast as possible, basically. I think learning to carve is probably the best way to get the right body mechanics for everything else on the mountain. I'm decent/better on powder given this winter, terrible in trees, decent on moguls, not great in deeper crud (might be the super light flexible skis I had, and obviously technique), improving in steeps but I know I have a lot of fundamental problems with how I ski -- being forward, outside leg, etc.
Groomed slopes seem like the right place to figure that out.
Don't need to race but want to get my skiing in a place where I can choose to make turns like a racer, or as close to possible to someone who just learned.
Then lessons are an absolute must. I don’t know any way around it. You’re not going to get to that level watching YouTube or chatting online. As an example, I spent years skiing with a race coach and/or an instructor, six to seven days a week, four plus months a year. And I would hesitate to call myself an expert. Obviously, this is far more training than most people want/need. But most of the people you are trying to emulate, whether racers or YouTube instructors have the same (or even more intense) background. Keep that in mind when comparing yourself. You’re looking pretty good for only two years but if you want to progress, lessons are essential.
Probably also worth clarifying what you mean, or really intend, by becoming an "expert" skier? Do you mean this in the sense that you are after technical perfection and want to join a demo team one day, are you looking to ski for a living, or that you want to be comfortable on basically anything you can find inbounds at a resort, or something else? What you ultimately want obviously impacts how much time and money you need to put into the sport.
Disagree. Learning to carve is good, fun, worthwhile. It won't do enough to get you better in other types of skiing. For example, carving is all about huge outer leg pressure (think pulling 2 G's: which leg will support that; almost straight outside leg or lifted bent inside leg?) Carving is about staying very centered (within a range) fore and aft. Compare that to bumps - far wider fore/aft range and lots of pivoting in bumps, or powder, none of the strong outside leg. There's more to it than that, but it gives you an idea. Performance carving will get you centered fore/aft.
Here you are exiting a turn to your right. Look at the lack of simultaneity in your skis direction and edge angle as you finish the turn and transition to the next turn. In carving, edges change together. You're on your heels here, and are late moving your body down the hill. Some of your turns look better, but they are at a greater distance and harder to see. You did this same divergence several times though, it's a pattern for you.
You do look good for a 2 year skier. There is good rhythm, flow, tails follow tips better than average for your experience, and you have good lateral separation, your shoulders and hips are quiet and stay facing down the hill. You are well on your way to skiing dynamically, moving your body inside the turn.
But you're not carving. You hurry the pivot at the top of the turn, and skid the skis throughout the turn. Carving is the skis turn on their edge and sidecut, and they go deep into reverse camber; you do not twist the skis. Meaning that when carving you do not exert a rotary force such that the ski bow-ties on the snow. You want the ski to trench in the snow, to leave a knife slice, for the tails not to just follow the tip, they ride in the same track as the tips. As a skier, you feel zero, zero, zero, slip of the snow under your feet when you carve a turn. You feel heavier from the G force than you do now, you feel slippery as there is no drag from skidding the ski and while the snow may yield under you from the turn, there is no spray when carving. Watch your video, and every time you see spray think skid. You want more edge, and you want it sooner.
Carving is about weighting the new outside ski at the top of the turn. Edging the new outside ski at the top of the turn. You're not doing that yet.
You need to learn to feel your footbed pressure pattern and manage it better. You need to move the skis in direction and edge angle as one. (Yes there's exceptions) Get those right, and your upper body will follow. You need to learn the difference between using an edge and holding an edge. (Cue Seinfeld) Lastly, find someone to help you with this.
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The best chance to get an advanced group lesson in a smaller group is to say that you want to ski moguls as much as possible during the lesson. Working on ski technique to ski moguls well will translate to carving much more so than the reverse. If you can get your fore-aft technique dialed in, your carving will significantly benefit. Carving is more forgiving of technique flaws than moguls. I suspect if you post video of you in the moguls the technique issues already mentioned by those much more qualified than me will be much more obvious.
Doing pretty damn good for year 2.
Recommend seeking more mellow and wider (much wider) terrain. When carving, speed builds very quickly and is controlled by line - finishing the turns travelling across the hill. For people starting out in carving, on the terrain in the vid, speed is going to become unmanageable very, very quickly.
Lessons are going to be essential given your goal of becoming expert. Mid-week out of peak times lessons are usually reasonably economical. As is buying multiple lesson packs pre-season. It still may take some effort to pick the instructor/s right for you.
Whilst nothing will take the place of real time on the hill instruction there's some excellent vid material that are a good supplements. Some recommendations (in no special order):
There's a before/after comparison at 1:13 - judge for yourself. Keep in mind that the student skier was receiving on snow training from a very experienced L4 instructor who dealt with student issues as they arose - it's a somewhat unorthodox progression.
Recommend seeking more mellow and wider (much wider) terrain. When carving, speed builds very quickly and is controlled by line - finishing the turns travelling across the hill. For people starting out in carving, on the terrain in the vid, speed is going to become unmanageable very, very quickly.
Lessons are going to be essential given your goal of becoming expert. Mid-week out of peak times lessons are usually reasonably economical. As is buying multiple lesson packs pre-season. It still may take some effort to pick the instructor/s right for you.
Whilst nothing will take the place of real time on the hill instruction there's some excellent vid material that are a good supplements. Some recommendations (in no special order):
- Section 8 Peak to Piste series:
- Vol 1 is for intermediates through to advanced (and an essential prerequisite)
- Vol 2 is for bumps
- Vol 3 is for carving (but watch vol 1 1st!!)
- Those 3 are probably the best value instruction vids out there.
- Projected Productions:
- Specifically The Road To Carving - basically progressing from skidding to gripping to railing to carving
- Most of their other stuff is intended for advanced skiers and less likely to be immediately applicable
- Big Picture Skiing
- Such a wealth of material it's often hard to know where to start! A great deal of detail and explanation on ski technic.
- Probably the most applicable is Dynamic Carving in 3 days and luckily there's a free version available.
There's a before/after comparison at 1:13 - judge for yourself. Keep in mind that the student skier was receiving on snow training from a very experienced L4 instructor who dealt with student issues as they arose - it's a somewhat unorthodox progression.
Seconded. But you need direction on that easier terrain, making the same moves on wider easier terrain isn't going to move the needle.
Ski weeks, camps, mid week, ski clubs, lots of programs out there that reduce your lesson cost if you buy in advance and/or in bulk. For example, Killington has a 4241 club that meets for 12 Saturdays and has 4.5 hours of instruction per day. You ski with a group of people at your ability, same group every week. I have a number of friends in that program and all like it a lot. Next season is $759, which is 14.50 per hour. Where are you going to find walk-up lesson rates for $14.50 an hour? And you get to cut lift lines. And you can move from group to group if you want to go up a level or down a level.
It's not just finding the right instructor. That's a good thing, I agree. But I think to really progress, you need a good series of instructors. One will plant a seed and the next will bring it to fruition with a different approach. I've found very little magic in skiing, advancement is usually earned.
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Was finding all the different options in NE and I wish I could, but its very difficult from NYC. But I think the gist of all the above messages about lessons is that the goal is difficult, otherwise more people would do it.
@geepers thank you for the resource recommendations!!
Makes sense! Does anyone have a preferred instructor on the east coast (Ikon mountains preferred) or Utah? Would love to not strike out on instructor quality.
I know a Jersey girl that drove up most weekends, and ended up with 5 World Cup championships and Olympic gold. Lot's of folks make the drive. Killington's largest market share is you, NYC metro area. Stowe, Stratton and MT Snow are full of NYC dwellers.
There is no substitute for time on the hill.
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Thanks for all the feedback. Had a few days on the slopes this weekend and practiced the drills recommended. Felt like I improved a lot. Have a few videos and attaching one if anyone wants to call out things that I don't see.
Here's what I noticed from my experience:
Here's what I noticed from my experience:
- Downhill leg pressure focus was huge and sometimes exhausting!
- Tried to focus on bringing pressure to the shins but couldn't do it every time -- its hard to concentrate on downhill leg and shin pressure at the same time. Still look backseat in the video footage but maybe better than before.
- My upper body is stable but feels very non-dynamic and tense.
- My arms don't know what to do other than pole drag and sit a bit further back than what I think is appropriate. Need advice on this.
- I thought I was at a much higher edge angle and bend towards the snow than I actually was, which was disappointing but maybe me realize I'm still missing a ton of knowledge. I thought my stacking the inner leg was much improved, but either that was insufficiently stacked to get lower, or I still needed to apply more downhill ski pressure? Perhaps my turn shape was the culprit and I couldn't generate enough normal force at this speed to support a more angled body position. Curious to hear thoughts on this.
- I focused a lot in drills on making sure my legs were turning together and making my turn transition more smooth (not having to adjust the inside leg after my new downhill leg began the turn). Felt a lot smoother and more stable.
- Doing this on a steeper run is a very challenging transition for me -- even in a slushy environment. Of course I need to get the basics down, but it feels like something major is holding me back... perhaps courage? Or being backseat is rearing its head.
You are on a journey. I see improvements. But you are in the back seat in many of your turns. I would suggest to step back a bit and practice stork turns. This will help you stay more centered and on the outside leg.
You're doing great for year 2, as others have mentioned. I'll just add a comment about your above statements.
You don't apply pressure, you receive it and manage it. You receive it by making the proper movements that gets the skis carving. You are driving everything from the backseat and forcing it. This is why you're exhausted. You'll need a few lessons, as everyone has mentioned to understand how to progress.
Until you get those lessons: Look up the drill Garlands. If you get a chance to ski again, go to a quiet ( not a lot of traffic ) green run. Do a few garlands across the hill with skis on edge and your center of mass centered in the arch of your outside/downhill foot. You should carve an arch across the hill in one direction. You should see it takes no pressure, no effort, just balance.
Good luck on your journey. It's a fun one.
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@wildest_comfortable -- yeah, smokin for year 2! Two simple ideas to ponder:
1. It is hard/impossible to actively weight the outer leg. Much easier to think of getting weight OFF the inside leg.
2. Most pure carving improvement happens of flat to flat-ish runs, and is then transferred to steeper runs.
1. It is hard/impossible to actively weight the outer leg. Much easier to think of getting weight OFF the inside leg.
2. Most pure carving improvement happens of flat to flat-ish runs, and is then transferred to steeper runs.
You are on the right track, and as others have said, your skiing is impressive for a 2nd season skier. Congrats! But being backseat is indeed holding you back. So I'm going to address that first. You said:
Tried to focus on bringing pressure to the shins but couldn't do it every time -- its hard to concentrate on downhill leg and shin pressure at the same time. Still look backseat in the video footage but maybe better than before.
1. In order to bring pressure to the shins, concentrate on keeping your ankles bent forward - keep them dorsiflexed. You probably won't be able to concentrate on anything else but this because most people can only work on one thing at a time. So practice on green terrain, which will offer less speed to distract your attention from your ankles.
I grabbed these two images from the internet. The first shows what you focus on- inside the boot lift your forefoot up to contact the ceiling of the boot. This creates dorsiflexiong.
And here's your goal: get the angle of your ankle "closed," aka dorsiflexed, like so:
Your shin will tilt forward inside the boot when you ski this way. That tilt will produce shin-tongue contact. Keep the ankles constantly dorsiflexed. This will be a challenge. Your goal is to make it habitual, so you can do it without thought. Practice, practice, practice. Practice on empty green terrain where the distractions are limited. When you forget and notice that you lost your focus, congratulate yourself for recognizing this and bring the focus back to dorsiflexing.
2. As you are getting successful at keeping your ankles dorsiflexed, also work on lifting your hips up and forward. Do this by opening your knees. The farther forward you get your hips, the more shin-tongue "pressure" you'll feel, and the more weight you will be directing to the shovels of your skis. How much you lift your hips determines how much weight you put over the shovels. Once your dorsiflexion is in muscle memory, you can then learn to manipulate how much shovel pressure you want to have by deciding how much to lift your hips up and forward. More up and forward, more shovel pressure.
--Look at the shin tilt for these two skiers below. The man's shins are vertical, not tilted forward, because he is not dorsiflexing. This forces his hips and torso back, so his weight is concentrated over the backs of the skis. He's in the back seat. His quads are getting exhausted. Not good.
--The woman's shins are tilted forward. She is dorsiflexing. Her hips are up, not sitting back, and her quads are not getting exhausted. She is definitely not in the back seat. That's your goal. The key is dorsiflexion, with hips up.
3. One more thing. Notice how the woman's upper body tilt matches the shin tilt? This is good. Aim for that, once you're dealing with lifting those hips up and forward. It will feel much more natural to get your bent elbows forward of your jacket's side-seam, and keep your hands forward as hers are. That will get your arms in a good position and help your balance, even if you are just holding onto your poles. Those arms weight something too, so their weight has an impact on how much weight is hovering over the fronts of your skis.
4. I have not addressed skiing from outside ski to outside ski, nor how to develop higher edge angles. Nor have I mentioned how to make clean arc-to-arc carves. These can be worked on after you solve the back seat issue.
Tried to focus on bringing pressure to the shins but couldn't do it every time -- its hard to concentrate on downhill leg and shin pressure at the same time. Still look backseat in the video footage but maybe better than before.
1. In order to bring pressure to the shins, concentrate on keeping your ankles bent forward - keep them dorsiflexed. You probably won't be able to concentrate on anything else but this because most people can only work on one thing at a time. So practice on green terrain, which will offer less speed to distract your attention from your ankles.
I grabbed these two images from the internet. The first shows what you focus on- inside the boot lift your forefoot up to contact the ceiling of the boot. This creates dorsiflexiong.
And here's your goal: get the angle of your ankle "closed," aka dorsiflexed, like so:
Your shin will tilt forward inside the boot when you ski this way. That tilt will produce shin-tongue contact. Keep the ankles constantly dorsiflexed. This will be a challenge. Your goal is to make it habitual, so you can do it without thought. Practice, practice, practice. Practice on empty green terrain where the distractions are limited. When you forget and notice that you lost your focus, congratulate yourself for recognizing this and bring the focus back to dorsiflexing.
2. As you are getting successful at keeping your ankles dorsiflexed, also work on lifting your hips up and forward. Do this by opening your knees. The farther forward you get your hips, the more shin-tongue "pressure" you'll feel, and the more weight you will be directing to the shovels of your skis. How much you lift your hips determines how much weight you put over the shovels. Once your dorsiflexion is in muscle memory, you can then learn to manipulate how much shovel pressure you want to have by deciding how much to lift your hips up and forward. More up and forward, more shovel pressure.
--Look at the shin tilt for these two skiers below. The man's shins are vertical, not tilted forward, because he is not dorsiflexing. This forces his hips and torso back, so his weight is concentrated over the backs of the skis. He's in the back seat. His quads are getting exhausted. Not good.
--The woman's shins are tilted forward. She is dorsiflexing. Her hips are up, not sitting back, and her quads are not getting exhausted. She is definitely not in the back seat. That's your goal. The key is dorsiflexion, with hips up.
3. One more thing. Notice how the woman's upper body tilt matches the shin tilt? This is good. Aim for that, once you're dealing with lifting those hips up and forward. It will feel much more natural to get your bent elbows forward of your jacket's side-seam, and keep your hands forward as hers are. That will get your arms in a good position and help your balance, even if you are just holding onto your poles. Those arms weight something too, so their weight has an impact on how much weight is hovering over the fronts of your skis.
4. I have not addressed skiing from outside ski to outside ski, nor how to develop higher edge angles. Nor have I mentioned how to make clean arc-to-arc carves. These can be worked on after you solve the back seat issue.
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This might sound like semantics, but instead of saying or thinking about "downhill leg", try to think about "outside ski" instead. The reason I say this is downhill leg implies that most of the pressure is happening at the bottom/end of the turn. We want to apply pressure early at the top of the turn, maximizing pressure when the ski is in the fall line, and then moving that pressure from the old outside ski to the new outside ski.
I agree with assessment that you are doing great for a 2nd year skier.
Some drills to help you get your center of mass over your base of support would be :
thousand step drill:
1000 Steps
1000 Steps is a versatile drill used to develop balance in motion, independent leg action, edging skills, turn shape, and dynamic movements. It can be used with athletes from the entry level through elite but for different purposes.
get over it:
Get Over It
Correct execution of this drill promotes solid balance on the outside ski through the duration of turn. Drill teaches forward, active weight transfer, precision at initiation and allows the athlete to feel all stages of roll onto and off edges
Lots of others too but these would be a good start.
Wildest, the thing that stands out in your latest video is a lack of foot tipping. Look up video demonstrations of this, and if possible get a lesson focused on it. A major application of this movement is knee angulation, so find video showing what that looks like. Improved foot tipping will bring major improvements, both in your transition into the new turn (removing pivoting and upper body rotation), and in turn completion (removing leaning into the turn). We could talk all day about those latter points, but the first thing you need to master is foot tipping, because that is what will give you the tools to develop alternative movement patterns.
I'm not seeing so much a back seat issue--more of a leaning in issue. But you will want to develop mobility in your fore-aft movements, and again, foot tipping will facilitate that.
Your turn shape is quite nice, but there's a bit to go to get to true carving.
I'm not seeing so much a back seat issue--more of a leaning in issue. But you will want to develop mobility in your fore-aft movements, and again, foot tipping will facilitate that.
Your turn shape is quite nice, but there's a bit to go to get to true carving.
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