Gore-Tex shell for resort?

[palikona]

I currently have a Strafe jacket with Polartec Neoshell. It’s obviously breathes well but is cold when the temp drops below 15 and especially when the wind picks up. Would a Gore-Tex shell remedy this on cold, windy days? My layering system is good but I think my problem is the cold air penetrates the Neoshell when I’m not hiking for turns or skiing on warmer days. Thoughts? I’m currently looking by at a Patty Powder Bowl jacket.

 

[Seldomski]

I currently have a Strafe jacket with Polartec Neoshell. It’s obviously breathes well but is cold when the temp drops below 15 and especially when the wind picks up. Would a Gore-Tex shell remedy this on cold, windy days? My layering system is good but I think my problem is the cold air penetrates the Neoshell when I’m not hiking for turns or skiing on warmer days. Thoughts? I’m currently looking by at a Patty Powder Bowl jacket.

I have Strafe neoshell pants and I had problems with them on cold/windy days or when it was snowing and warm/humid enough for the snow to melt and soak the pants.

Marmot Freerider pants have fixed this problem. I still have the neoshell pants for backup or when it's really warm. I also have the Freerider jacket from Marmot. The material is impervious to water and excellent wind block. I have only skied with them for two seasons so far (approx 35 days on snow), so TBD long term durability.

 

[Tony Storaro]

I’m currently looking by at a Patty Powder Bowl jacket.

If you can find a deal on Arcteryx Sabre, that'd be great. Nothing wrong with Patagonia but Arcteryx are just...better.

Yes, with proper layering no problems in cold days, no wind comes in. Or water. And they have this soft to the touch lining-real nice.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

If you can find a deal on Arcteryx Sabre, that'd be great. Nothing wrong with Patagonia but Arcteryx are just...better.

Yes, with proper layering no problems in cold days, no wind comes in. Or water. And they have this soft to the touch lining-real nice.

That and stellar warranty. Love how their warranty covers second-hand sales. Was hoping they could fix my 10 year old shell when it began delaming in a small area (beyond expected life time), instead they just told me to pick a replacement shell

(I'm biased as I used to work for the dead bird)

 

[neonorchid]

Frigid wind goes right thru my 2011 TNF Enzo 3-layer GoreTex shell. After freezing my butt off thru the season of the Polar Express I purchased the Arcteryx Sidewinder 3-layer GoreTex-Pro shell which is among the more breathable of the various GoreTex fabrics, problem solved.

 

[palikona]

I’d love to find an Arcteryx but I cannot justify the full price cost.
However, it sounds like if I get a good brand’s Goretex shell, it will help keep me warm on windy, cold days (think Loveland, ABasin and Breck above treeline), with proper layering?

 

[SpeedyKevin]

hmmm its been awhile since I have dealt with textures but if I can recall, neoshell from polartec is more permeable than than the standard goretex. Goretex pro may have similar issues for you as it loses one of the interior coatings for more air permeability. What's your layering system/set up like?

EDIT: I think Neoshell is still more air permeable than Goretex pro.

 

[Wilhelmson]

On a really cold day last year I wore a under armor hooded sweatshirt with the hood on under my helmet. It is so much warmer than any other system and only requires a thin layer or two under the sweatshirt.

 

[palikona]

hmmm its been awhile since I have dealt with textures but if I can recall, neoshell from polartec is more permeable than than the standard goretex. Goretex pro may have similar issues for you as it loses one of the interior coatings for more air permeability. What's your layering system/set up like?

EDIT: I think Neoshell is still more air permeable than Goretex pro.

On a day that’s 15 and above, I’ll wear mid weight long underwear and a synthetic insulation top from Black Diamond. Below that, I’ll either increase the long underwear weight or switch out the synthetic with down (on really cold days).

 

[Tony Storaro]

I’d love to find an Arcteryx but I cannot justify the full price cost.

It is expensive indeed, that's why I mentioned finding a deal.
The new Powder Bowl looks nice but I have not tested it myself so cant say anything. By the looks of it, you should be OK.

 

[Dos-Equis]

hmmm its been awhile since I have dealt with textures but if I can recall, neoshell from polartec is more permeable than than the standard goretex. Goretex pro may have similar issues for you as it loses one of the interior coatings for more air permeability. What's your layering system/set up like?

EDIT: I think Neoshell is still more air permeable than Goretex pro.

Goretex pro is not air permeable at all.
Neoshell is only about 1-2cfm. That isn’t enough to let any perceivable amount of wind through.

rhe factor that can make neoshell feel cooler in the wind is that it’s a softer/less structured fabric that tends to get blown against the skin more than a stiff goretex jacket.

the problem is probably best solved mid layers. I’ve taken my neoshell in high exposure/low temperatur peaks and not had any issues with windoroofness.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Goretex pro is not air permeable at all.
Neoshell is only about 1-2cfm. That isn’t enough to let any perceivable amount of wind through.

rhe factor that can make neoshell feel cooler in the wind is that it’s a softer/less structured fabric that tends to get blown against the skin more than a stiff goretex jacket.

the problem is probably best solved mid layers. I’ve taken my neoshell in high exposure/low temperatur peaks and not had any issues with windoroofness.

yea I'm definitely using the wrong word here haha. Breathability/permeable in regards to moisture vapor transmission rate. Some folks find that the higher mvtr-rated materials can feel "colder in the wind. If I can recall, original goretex and goretex xcr? had a poor mvtr rate but that was improved with Pro (not Pro shell) by removing the inner PU coating.

I remember a few early neoshell adopters (mountain climbers) complaining about Neoshell feeling colder in the wind. Some comparisons were made to the mvtr of eVent at the time (not even sure that still exists). The "cold" feeling could also be due to the face fabric that the jacket manufacturer matched the neoshell too.

@palikona are you still feeling cold with the down jacket under the shell? If not, @Dos-Equis suggestion of checking out other mid layers may be ideal (and probably cheaper too!). Is the black diamond layer you are wearing short? I find that sometimes wind will make its well up from the bottom of the shell but cinching the shell tight fixes that.

EDIT: @palikona if you are interested in a somewhat deep dive on membranes, here is a decent old article by Sam Shaheen on the different options https://blisterreview.com/recommended/outerwear-201-marketing-wars-new-technologies-paradigm-shifts

 

[palikona]

Goretex pro is not air permeable at all.
Neoshell is only about 1-2cfm. That isn’t enough to let any perceivable amount of wind through.

rhe factor that can make neoshell feel cooler in the wind is that it’s a softer/less structured fabric that tends to get blown against the skin more than a stiff goretex jacket.

the problem is probably best solved mid layers. I’ve taken my neoshell in high exposure/low temperatur peaks and not had any issues with windoroofness.

So my Strafe jacket has Polartech alpha insulation in it (60g I think?) and I still feel like the wind and cold go right through it on days below 20. It’s great for days that I’m hiking, which I guess is more of what it’s made for.
When I add a synthetic layer, I definitely helps, but I get colder than I’d expect. With a down layer, I feel warm for sure but it really needs to be below zero windchill or else the down layer is too warm.

 

[palikona]

yea I'm definitely using the wrong word here haha. Breathability/permeable in regards to moisture vapor transmission rate. Some folks find that the higher mvtr-rated materials can feel "colder in the wind. If I can recall, original goretex and goretex xcr? had a poor mvtr rate but that was improved with Pro (not Pro shell) by removing the inner PU coating.

I remember a few early neoshell adopters (mountain climbers) complaining about Neoshell feeling colder in the wind. Some comparisons were made to the mvtr of eVent at the time (not even sure that still exists). The "cold" feeling could also be due to the face fabric that the jacket manufacturer matched the neoshell too.

@palikona are you still feeling cold with the down jacket under the shell? If not, @Dos-Equis suggestion of checking out other mid layers may be ideal (and probably cheaper too!). Is the black diamond layer you are wearing short? I find that sometimes wind will make its well up from the bottom of the shell but cinching the shell tight fixes that.

EDIT: @palikona if you are interested in a somewhat deep dive on membranes, here is a decent old article by Sam Shaheen on the different options https://blisterreview.com/recommended/outerwear-201-marketing-wars-new-technologies-paradigm-shifts

Thank you! The BD midlayer doesn’t ride up but maybe it’s not the best midlayer to use? I believe it’s 60g of Polartec Silver.
Thanks, I’ll check out the link.

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Thank you! The BD midlayer doesn’t ride up but maybe it’s not the best midlayer to use? I believe it’s 60g of Polartec Silver.
Thanks, I’ll check out the link.

60g hmm, is it an active insulation layer? Ie similar to a proton LT, atom LT, or patagonia nano air? I ask as 40 to 60g is generally the amount of insulation found in those. Those types of jackets also generally have more permeable face fabrics so can feel chilly in wind. I use a proton LT as its breathable but still not as much as the other other options. That plus my soft/hard hybrid shell gets me comfortably down to low 20s. Great for hiking when used alone but not great for skiing below below 30f or when its breezy. Anything lower or worse, id need a step up in mid layer to the 80g+ category.

Cant remember the exact numbers anymore but generally for the "average" young to mid age male to be thermally neutral (not active, doing camp chores) at 32f , they would need 3.5 - 4oz of 800fp down (think patagonia down sweater plus a tad more). Forgot the clo ratings but you could work backwards from there! Now skiing is a little more active but not that much more.

 

[Analisa]

I don’t think your first hunch about the shell is off. Every shell has a membrane, outer fabric, and inner fabric all laminated together.

Gore, Gore Pro, and NeoShell are all different membranes, with the prior two being more like a stretched, thin sheet. NeoShell is electrospun, which ends up looking kind of like uncooked ramen noodles and is more porous.

But Polartec is unlike other membrane suppliers because they’re a fabric supplier and they sell the laminated trio as a set. If I'm buying a generic PU membrane, as a product developer, I can put any weight, weave, or knit on both sides of the membrane. But with Polartec, there's a catalog with the set fabric options and color options. Wind resistance is also a reflection of which membrane you use (stretch vs. non), whether your fabrics are knitted or woven, and whether you've got a lightweight NeoShell fabric that's ~80gsm or a heavier one 200+ gsm. Polartec noteably only offers knit interior fabrics. Knits use less thread and create a circular pattern with more "holes" for air to pass through (think of a warm, chunky sweater where the wind can still cut through). Wovens interlock like a basketweave and can be much denser. Goretex's C-Knit series is literally just a knit inner fabric that helps them hit that "lighter, softer, quieter, more breathable" claim.

Goretex just sells their membrane, but they have a lot of licensing requirements. For example, Pro can only be sold to customers with a 40+ denier face fabric and particular woven inner fabrics. But within the "regular" Gore lines, you'll see more a lot more variation in terms of fabrics, weights, weaves, and yarn twist compared to Polartec's catalog. Goretex is Goretex with low air permeability, but what the PDs decide to laminate on both sides of it will influence your experience with the garment.

In terms of whether the 1cfm rating on NeoShell is something you'll pick up on, there are a few things to consider. Namely, NeoShell themselves calls their fabric "wind resistant." But also the lab testing is standardized for the "average atmosphere" in terms of temps & relative humidity (70 deg, 65%). Skiing temps are much lower, and since cold air cannot hold as much moisture, the relative humidity increases. Totally possible that your experience may differ than the lab data and/or others' experiences with the same garment. Also, softshell fabrics tend to test between 5-10cfm, which I find to be a good reference point in evaluating whether 0.1cfm vs. 1cfm would be substantially different.

Totally understandable that the Strafe Alpha isn't helping. Both the insulation and the face fabric are extremely air permeable. Personally, I like a very air permeable insulating layer and to rely on my shell for wind & waterproofing. Vapor already has a tough time crossing most membranes on the market, and dense or coated wovens that provide wind protection only add obstacles to keep moisture from escaping the jacket. But given the cost considerations mentioned above, it's still a solid idea. But overall your kit can be exaggerated layers of mesh designed for the sweatiest of recreationalists. The good news is there are a plethora of products at a wide variety of price points that will help you out.

 

[x10003q]

Get the insulated Patagonia Powder Bowl jacket or a similar type of insulated jacket. I use a Flylow Roswell for cold resort days. It makes a huge difference vs trying to make a shell work with the temps and conditions you are talking about. Most of my skiing is in VT and upstate NY.

Flylow Roswell Insulated Jacket

Free Shipping & Lowest Price Guarantee! The Flylow Roswell Insulated Jacket is in stock now.

www.evo.com

 

[palikona]

Get the insulated Patagonia Powder Bowl jacket or a similar type of insulated jacket. I use a Flylow Roswell for cold resort days. It makes a huge difference vs trying to make a shell work with the temps and conditions you are talking about. Most of my skiing is in VT and upstate NY.

Flylow Roswell Insulated Jacket

Free Shipping & Lowest Price Guarantee! The Flylow Roswell Insulated Jacket is in stock now.

www.evo.com

When you use your FL Roswell, do you ever need more than a mid-heavy base layer under that, when it’s cold?

 

[x10003q]

When you use your FL Roswell, do you ever need more than a mid-heavy base layer under that, when it’s cold?

I generally wear a mid level terramar base with a Patagonia r2 fleece under the Roswell. That is plenty unless we are there are sub zero temps plus wind.
If it is on the warmer side I exchange the r2 for similar fleece type of vest under the Roswell. The Roswell actually breathes pretty well while keeping me warm. I find the Roswell can be worn in a decent ranger of temps.

I usually lean to warm when I am skiing.

 

[FlimFlamvanHam]

The recommendation on a Sabre above is good only because of the gore-tex used. I'll make this brief and am only talking about 3 layer laminates.

I'll use Arc'teryx as my example because they are great at providing the face fabric weight (their N40d fabric is lighter than their N80d) and heavier usually means less breathable (I honestly think no waterproof membrane is actually breathable...try riding a bike in Gore shake dry: they say it breaths...point is, breathability should be of zero concern on a resort hardshell and if you are sweating enough to need "breathability" you want pit zips) but more durable.

Back to the Sabre. Years ago Arc'teryx had a jacket called the Stingray. They sold it as "gore soft shell" which was probably a mistake. It was 100% a hardshell but had a softer hand face fabric but most importantly had a very light "loft" interior fabric that made the garment shockingly warm for a hard shell.

They still use that fabric as do many others manufacturers. They used it (of if they still make them?) in their Sabre line. I will contend till I die (a bit extreme but I do know hardshell fabrics) that this is the best resort hardshell material. It's durable; not as crinkly and most of all provides some warmth and 100% wind proof.