Head Raptor 140 flex adjust question

[eok]

Got my Raptors in 2017, love 'em. They are in the default out-of-the-box flex setup, which is a 130 flex. I don't have a problem flexing the boots at all. However, it would be great if I could *experiment* with a temporary softer flex. This has been in the back of my mind since last season, when my fitter was clearly mystified I had chosen such stiff boots. I'm in my 60s and he actually said "at your age you should consider a softer flex boot soon". Indeed.

To set this up: my previous boots were 2013 Rossignol Radical WC 130s. Basically a Lange RS130 shell. The guidance for flex adjustment for the Radicals was:

• If you remove the top screw from the back of the cuff, you will soften the boot 6%. (122 flex)
• If you remove the bottom screw from the back of the cuff, you will soften the boot 12%. (114 flex)
• If you remove both screws from the back of the cuff, you will soften the boot 20%. (104 flex)**

** Because the ankle rivet position is further back and higher than any of the previous generations of boots taking the spine bolts out shouldn't kill the rebound and snap of the boot.

OK, so the spine on the back of my Raptors can accept up to 3 spine bolts to adjust flex. Here's a pic:

The pic is actually for a Raptor B2 RD, but the spine bolt arrangement on my Raptor 140s is the same, with the flex options being 130, 140,150. My boots have just the default bottom bolt installed for the default 130 flex.

So my question:

So, considering that you could soften the flex of the Rossignol Radicals by moving the spine bolt up to the higher bolt hole, would this have a similar effect with the Raptors? That is, if I moved the spine bolt on my Raptors to one of the holes above, would that reduce flex a bit? Nope: I would never ski the boots with no spine bolt(s) installed.

I'm trying to get feed back because using the upper bolt holes requires drilling 'em out. Don't want to drill holes if there's no possibility of flex reduction.

Yes, yes: I know I can trim the inner cuff/saddle of the boot to reduce flex. But THAT is irreversible. I just want to temporarily test a softer flex. I'm 100% accustomed to my Raptor's 130 flex - love 'em.

 

[Philpug]

I just want to temporarily test a softer flex. I'm 100% accustomed to my Raptor's 130 flex - love 'em.

You struck oil....why do you want to keep drilling? The only way you can soften the boot is by cutting the saddles, it is strongly not recommended that you remove the last bolt out of the back of the boot, as you very well have read in many other threads.

 

[Andy Mink]

You struck oil....why do you want to keep drilling? The only way you can soften the boot is by cutting the saddles, it is strongly not recommended that you remove the last bolt out of the back of the boot, as you very well have read in many other threads.

Can he move the bottom bolt to a higher hole and get a softer flex? He'd still have a bolt in there. Or does a bolt HAVE to be in the bottom hole?

 

[eok]

Can he move the bottom bolt to a higher hole and get a softer flex? He'd still have a bolt in there. Or does a bolt HAVE to be in the bottom hole?

That's basically what I'm asking. Move the bolt up one hole. On my old Rossignol Radicals, that would soften the flex a few percentage points.

 

[Philpug]

That's basically what I'm asking. Move the bolt up one hole. On my old Rossignol Radicals, that would soften the flex a few percentage points.

It is not going to make a discernible difference.

 

[eok]

You struck oil....why do you want to keep drilling? The only way you can soften the boot is by cutting the saddles, it is strongly not recommended that you remove the last bolt out of the back of the boot, as you very well have read in many other threads.

When I have gear with adjustability features, I tend to experiment with those features.

I never ever suggested removing all spine bolts from the boot. Just curious if moving the bolt up to the next higher hole will soften the flex a few points - as with the old Rossignol Radicals.

 

[eok]

It is not going to make a discernible difference.

Cool, that's what I was looking for. Thanks.

 

[Philpug]

When I have gear with adjustability features, I tend to experiment with those features.

I never ever suggested removing all spine bolts from the boot. Just curious if moving the bolt up to the next higher hole will soften the flex a few points - as with the old Rossignol Radicals.

I wasn't suggesting you were. But also, I am answering the hundreds of people who wil be reading this thread in the future who might think "why can't I just remove the bolts"

 

[ScotsSkier]

I wasn't suggesting you were. But also, I am answering the hundreds of people who wil be reading this thread in the future who might think "why can't I just remove the bolts" ......and then wonder why they can not pressure the tip of the ski...

FIFY..

 

[BGreen]

At your age you should find a different boot fitter. Either you can flex the boots or you can’t. Either the boots fit your intended use or they don’t. If we’re going to play the age game, “after a certain age” I think people should be in a less transmissive boot (I put Heads in that category) or more specifically a boot that has some absorption to it, but that has nothing to do with flex.

 

[eok]

At your age you should find a different boot fitter. Either you can flex the boots or you can’t. Either the boots fit your intended use or they don’t. If we’re going to play the age game, “after a certain age” I think people should be in a less transmissive boot (I put Heads in that category) or more specifically a boot that has some absorption to it, but that has nothing to do with flex.

Oh, I'll keep the fitter. He's one of the best around and he's great to work with. When he made his comment, I did let him know how well the boots work for me and my skiing. He understood. But, because of his age related "concerns" about me, I did let him know he could help me take the Raptors off my feet at the end of each ski day. I'm still disappointed he didn't take me up on that one. Dang.

 

[David Chaus]

Oh, I'll keep the fitter. He's one of the best around and he's great to work with. When he made his comment, I did let him know how well the boots work for me and my skiing. He understood. But, because of his age related "concerns" about me, I did let him know he could help me take the Raptors off my feet at the end of each ski day. I'm still disappointed he didn't take me up on that one. Dang.

You know, I have the same problem with my bootfitter.

 

[rcc55125]

I am guessing you have the Raptor tech manual because the flex tune pic you posted is right out of the manual. But if not here is a link;
https://issuu.com/levnelyze/docs/tech_manual_raptor_16-17_v4.
The Tech chart on page 10 says the flex options are 120 (1 screw), 130 (2 screws) , 140 (3 screws).
I'm not sure what the flex would be without any screws but a good friend of mine, who is a Level 3 instructor and clinician skis her 130's with no screws. And she's in her 60's.
I have the Raptor 120 RS and ski it with no screws. As you noted about the Rossi's, rebound is not killed by doing this.
HOWEVER, removing both screws opens up the possibility of cuff failure should one of the hinge screws come out. This is a huge issue for a racer and liability concerns is one reason the manufacturer won't recommend it.
Should you remove one of the hinge screws you will note they have blue thread locker on them, so, if you're careful they shouldn't come out for a test ride.
You may find you like the softer flex. Then you can decide if you want to grind plastic. I check my hinge screws ofter and haven't found an issue so I continue to ski my boots that way. I'm not a racer so it a hinge screw loosens I should be able to feel it and correct the issue before there is a problem. Also, I had a pair of Fisher boots with the ski/walk latch on the spine and often forgot to switch it to ski. I knew it as soon as I made a couple of turns but it was never an issue. Oh, yah, I'm 71.

 

[eok]

I am guessing you have the Raptor tech manual because the flex tune pic you posted is right out of the manual. But if not here is a link;
https://issuu.com/levnelyze/docs/tech_manual_raptor_16-17_v4.
The Tech chart on page 10 says the flex options are 120 (1 screw), 130 (2 screws) , 140 (3 screws).
I'm not sure what the flex would be without any screws but a good friend of mine, who is a Level 3 instructor and clinician skis her 130's with no screws. And she's in her 60's.
I have the Raptor 120 RS and ski it with no screws. As you noted about the Rossi's, rebound is not killed by doing this.
HOWEVER, removing both screws opens up the possibility of cuff failure should one of the hinge screws come out. This is a huge issue for a racer and liability concerns is one reason the manufacturer won't recommend it.
Should you remove one of the hinge screws you will note they have blue thread locker on them, so, if you're careful they shouldn't come out for a test ride.
You may find you like the softer flex. Then you can decide if you want to grind plastic. I check my hinge screws ofter and haven't found an issue so I continue to ski my boots that way. I'm not a racer so it a hinge screw loosens I should be able to feel it and correct the issue before there is a problem. Also, I had a pair of Fisher boots with the ski/walk latch on the spine and often forgot to switch it to ski. I knew it as soon as I made a couple of turns but it was never an issue. Oh, yah, I'm 71.

Thanks.

Yeah, I found the Raptor tech manual on that site as well. Problem is that the tech chart lists the specs for the 130 RS - not the 140 RS. My understanding was that both models are identical. But I talked with a Head rep on the mountain last season & he said the 140 RS is set to 130 flex out of the box. That's with the single bolt in the bottom position.

In any case: per Phil's suggestion, I'm 'gonna stop 'drillin for oil & just leave the flex as it is. I'll go find some other gear thingy to fiddle with now...

 

[Rod9301]

Got my Raptors in 2017, love 'em. They are in the default out-of-the-box flex setup, which is a 130 flex. I don't have a problem flexing the boots at all. However, it would be great if I could *experiment* with a temporary softer flex. This has been in the back of my mind since last season, when my fitter was clearly mystified I had chosen such stiff boots. I'm in my 60s and he actually said "at your age you should consider a softer flex boot soon". Indeed.

To set this up: my previous boots were 2013 Rossignol Radical WC 130s. Basically a Lange RS130 shell. The guidance for flex adjustment for the Radicals was:



OK, so the spine on the back of my Raptors can accept up to 3 spine bolts to adjust flex. Here's a pic:

View attachment 55967

The pic is actually for a Raptor B2 RD, but the spine bolt arrangement on my Raptor 140s is the same, with the flex options being 130, 140,150. My boots have just the default bottom bolt installed for the default 130 flex.

So my question:

So, considering that you could soften the flex of the Rossignol Radicals by moving the spine bolt up to the higher bolt hole, would this have a similar effect with the Raptors? That is, if I moved the spine bolt on my Raptors to one of the holes above, would that reduce flex a bit? Nope: I would never ski the boots with no spine bolt(s) installed.

I'm trying to get feed back because using the upper bolt holes requires drilling 'em out. Don't want to drill holes if there's no possibility of flex reduction.

Yes, yes: I know I can trim the inner cuff/saddle of the boot to reduce flex. But THAT is irreversible. I just want to temporarily test a softer flex. I'm 100% accustomed to my Raptor's 130 flex - love 'em.

I don't like what he said, you're older, you need a soft boot

Is your skiing worse now than a few years ago?
If not, no reason to go to a softer boot.

Tell him that you're just old, not stupid

 

[KingGrump]

Tell him that you're just old, not stupid

My wife said I was stupid long before I was old.

Do not go gentle into the good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
Dylan Thomas

 

[Philpug]

My wife say I was stupid long before I was old.

Do not go gentle into the good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
Dylan Thomas

I was thinking..since when are they mutually exclusive? It is along the lines, "do you walk to school or do you carry your lunch?"

 

[eok]

I don't like what he said, you're older, you need a soft boot

Is your skiing worse now than a few years ago?
If not, no reason to go to a softer boot.

Tell him that you're just old, not stupid

The boots helped me transform my skiing to the next level. Literally a game changer for me. They are not too stiff for me. The flex/rebound/absorption characteristics of the Raptors are just fantastic. Head clearly put some serious R&D into their development. The cork filled liners (heel/ankle area) & excellent power straps are icing on the cake.

I guess I've always preferred a firm flexing boot. "Back in the day" - when I was a 20-something, I was at a dealer demo event at Heavenly & demo'd some Raichles (Flexons). Waaaay too soft. I could crush them at will. Couldn't wait to get out of them and back into my Banshees.

Per my original post, I was just curious about the flex features of my Raptors & if it was worth playing with those features. Clearly the answer is no.

 

[Noodler]

Some food for thought as you're debating the forward flex stiffness of your boots...

I come from a different perspective when it comes to boot flex. I believe that the forward flex of your boots is determined by how responsive you want your fore/aft movements to be translated to your skis. A very stiff boot is going to provide more "immediacy" to your movements.

Keep in mind that with 4-buckle overlap boots, softer forward flex almost always means softer lateral flex. So you're going to lose some "accuracy" for lateral edging movements. This is the beauty of the 3-piece "cabrio" type design; it provides a solution to controlling lateral flex separately from fore/aft flex.

If you have your stance dialed-in (forward lean, ramp angle, cuff alignment, canting) then you really want to "stay" there when skiing. A soft flexing boot will be more forgiving of balance/movement mistakes. So selection of flex in my view is more about skier skill level, not whether or not you can actually flex the boot forward. That's not a requirement if you have your boots fit correctly.

My personal goal is to ski in a boot as stiff as possible while still be able to get in and out without having to resort to needing a hair dryer on the boots at the end of the day. I do use a heated boot bag and that helps the start of the day.

 

[Andy Mink]

I just skied my Raptor 140s for the first time on Friday. Out of a heated bag. They are REALLY flexy for the first few runs until they cool down. I suppose this won't be an issue when we get real skiing temps!