Help me correct my technique (slight A frame)

[Don Boyajian]

I'm hoping folks can help provide some
guidance on ways to improve my skiing. I often struggle with having a slight A frame...particularly on my backcountry setup, and in challenging wind affected snow. Maybe I'm over-edging...but it almost sometimes looks like the outside ski is a little late to release to the next turn. Any other tips are appreciated - I really want to spend this season tightening up my skiing. This skiing is all in the backcountry in the northeast US (Adirondacks)...so generally slopes in the 30 degree-ish range, with variable conditions, which is where my flaws become most exposed. So - here's some various clips.. some in decent/good snow, some in funky wind affected snow, and some skiing in some of the worst conditions the east coast has to offer. The clip where I'm being followed by my friend is particularly good example of the issue, as is the one where I'm going really slow on some horrible, crusty, icy slide. Much appreciate everyone's input.



weird steep gully

slide 1

couloir

good conditions, good skiing


grabby snow:

 

[razie]

What are those boots? Please don't tell me "120 AT boots with no cuff adjustment"

 

[Chris V.]

I'm having trouble consistently viewing the video, but I think I've seen three clips:

1. POV, which didn't do much for me, sorry.

2. One of you starting up through heavy snow.

3. One of you descending a narrow chute. That one just looked like good skiing.

That leaves the second one, in which I felt like we only got a good look at one turn, but it was informative in combination with your comments. I can't say that I could personally consistently do any better a job in those conditions. What I see, though, is that you resorted to a stemming move to start the turn. What would work better as a rule would be increased angulation at the end of the old turn followed by a assertive release. This would cause your COM to fall toward the center of the new turn, quickly creating inclination and edge angles. This is more challenging at low speed in heavy snow. We probably all then resort to a stem on occasion to recover the line, particularly when running out of room. But it results in the remainder of the turn being inferior.

What I suggest as training to overcome habitually regressing into stemming is a lot of practice of two footed releases, from a stationary start. First do a lot of them on groomers. Then do a lot of them in bumps. And in broken new snow. The move is harder to do without having momentum to assist you. Hence the practice from a standing start. Look up demos on the Web. Hope you find success!

 

[Don Boyajian]

What are those boots? Please don't tell me "120 AT boots with no cuff adjustment"

Unfort they are.

 

[Don Boyajian]

I'm having trouble consistently viewing the video, but I think I've seen three clips:

1. POV, which didn't do much for me, sorry.

2. One of you starting up through heavy snow.

3. One of you descending a narrow chute. That one just looked like good skiing.

That leaves the second one, in which I felt like we only got a good look at one turn, but it was informative in combination with your comments. I can't say that I could personally consistently do any better a job in those conditions. What I see, though, is that you resorted to a stemming move to start the turn. What would work better as a rule would be increased angulation at the end of the old turn followed by a assertive release. This would cause your COM to fall toward the center of the new turn, quickly creating inclination and edge angles. This is more challenging at low speed in heavy snow. We probably all then resort to a stem on occasion to recover the line, particularly when running out of room. But it results in the remainder of the turn being inferior.

What I suggest as training to overcome habitually regressing into stemming is a lot of practice of two footed releases, from a stationary start. First do a lot of them on groomers. Then do a lot of them in bumps. And in broken new snow. The move is harder to do without having momentum to assist you. Hence the practice from a standing start. Look up demos on the Web. Hope you find success!

Thank you for your input. Sorry about the videos...there are also hyper links to other skiing as well (the blue text). That sounds like a great drill...might be exactly what I need. I will look it up. I think you're right...maybe not so much as an A frame, as it is starting with a stem.

 

[Sledhead]

Nice skiing on some great terrain! Getting to the point, you open the gates to a movement analysis and I need the practice. What better way to lure a lurker to the surface?

An A frame is simply defined as the lower shaft alignment that produces the shape of an “A”. There are two types of A frames. First, there is the more typically referred to frontal A frame where the inside ski and shin are tipped less than the outside ski and shin and viewable from the front or rear. Second, there is the sagittal A frame resulting from excessive inside tip lead and viewable from the side. Based on the alignment presented in the video, I see evidence of both and would expect to see it further exposed on a firm and flat surface. Typically, both A frames occur together, both of which is the result of the lack of the use of the inside ski, as is a compensatory stem movement. These A frames are the places your inside will go when left to their own accord. It is often falsely surmised that the manifestation of an A frame has anything to do with the outside such as the over-edging of the outside ski that you mention. You are, instead, under edging the inside ski. Your outside ankle is fully trained to tip and hold that outside ski but your inside ankle has been left there with nothing to do. Contemporary advanced skiing technique utilizes both the outside and inside ankles to participate in each and every turn with eversion/inversion, pronation/supination and dorsiflexion/plantar flexion. Compared to the outside ankle, your inside ankle is likely suffering a state of atrophy so it needs to be strengthened and trained in order to participate in the turn. There are plenty of drills to use to train that inside ankle to give it the balance, strength and mobility of the outside ankle. That you are an accomplished skier however, it mightn’t be easy. The good part for this developmental issue is that the change is all about creating new patterns and not eliminating old ones as an A frame is, again, indicative of a lack of involvement.

However, if a skier does not intend on incorporating the inside ski in the turn, which will always require a modicum of pressure, I would then suggest that it wouldn’t matter much what you do with it at all. Some will suggest that “where” you hold the inside foot while it is off the ground is an effective way to balance over the outside ski which sounds highly compensatory as we should already be balancing based on where we are connected to the ground. Such an extra lever should not be necessary. It would be like moving your arms around to balance over the ski.

Anytime I observe what I think is a very good skier, one thing I notice across the board, regardless of terrain and turn intent, are matched skis. Equally directed (parallel), equally tipped, very little inside tip lead and similar fore to aft pressure migration. The only difference that I know is present is that the outside receives a large majority of the pressure. Whenever I see an elite skier out of this scheme, it is usually due to one of the many anomalies to technique we must endure in order to address the chaotic nature of skiing variable terrain or as a result of a skier reaching and surpassing the vertical separation available within their mechanics.

 

[Don Boyajian]

Nice skiing on some great terrain! Getting to the point, you open the gates to a movement analysis and I need the practice. What better way to lure a lurker to the surface?

An A frame is simply defined as the lower shaft alignment that produces the shape of an “A”. There are two types of A frames. First, there is the more typically referred to frontal A frame where the inside ski and shin are tipped less than the outside ski and shin and viewable from the front or rear. Second, there is the sagittal A frame resulting from excessive inside tip lead and viewable from the side. Based on the alignment presented in the video, I see evidence of both and would expect to see it further exposed on a firm and flat surface. Typically, both A frames occur together, both of which is the result of the lack of the use of the inside ski, as is a compensatory stem movement. These A frames are the places your inside will go when left to their own accord. It is often falsely surmised that the manifestation of an A frame has anything to do with the outside such as the over-edging of the outside ski that you mention. You are, instead, under edging the inside ski. Your outside ankle is fully trained to tip and hold that outside ski but your inside ankle has been left there with nothing to do. Contemporary advanced skiing technique utilizes both the outside and inside ankles to participate in each and every turn with eversion/inversion, pronation/supination and dorsiflexion/plantar flexion. Compared to the outside ankle, your inside ankle is likely suffering a state of atrophy so it needs to be strengthened and trained in order to participate in the turn. There are plenty of drills to use to train that inside ankle to give it the balance, strength and mobility of the outside ankle. That you are an accomplished skier however, it mightn’t be easy. The good part for this developmental issue is that the change is all about creating new patterns and not eliminating old ones as an A frame is, again, indicative of a lack of involvement.

However, if a skier does not intend on incorporating the inside ski in the turn, which will always require a modicum of pressure, I would then suggest that it wouldn’t matter much what you do with it at all. Some will suggest that “where” you hold the inside foot while it is off the ground is an effective way to balance over the outside ski which sounds highly compensatory as we should already be balancing based on where we are connected to the ground. Such an extra lever should not be necessary. It would be like moving your arms around to balance over the ski.

Anytime I observe what I think is a very good skier, one thing I notice across the board, regardless of terrain and turn intent, are matched skis. Equally directed (parallel), equally tipped, very little inside tip lead and similar fore to aft pressure migration. The only difference that I know is present is that the outside receives a large majority of the pressure. Whenever I see an elite skier out of this scheme, it is usually due to one of the many anomalies to technique we must endure in order to address the chaotic nature of skiing variable terrain or as a result of a skier reaching and surpassing the vertical separation available within their mechanics.

This is very insightful. I'm glad I posted some clips in less than ideal snow..because that's where my bad habit really comes to life. Originally, I thought it was AT boot alignment, but I have noticed it when I'm skiing very slowly with my fiancé, whom I'm teaching to ski at the resort (it's going fine, don't worry). I'm noticed that the slow speeds (particularly on my carving skis), the inside ski just feels like it's not not nearly as engaged as the outside. All this slow groomer skiing with her is probably a good opportunity to study and practice some drills to create new habits to engage the inside ski. Not exactly sure what the best drills are, but I will look. Thank you so much!

 

[Chris V.]

I think you're right...maybe not so much as an A frame, as it is starting with a stem.

A-frame, stem, one leads to the other many times, chicken or egg, two manifestations of the same thing, I don't know.

 

[Rdputnam515]

Skiing looks good to me honestly.

maybe a slight mismatch in the first video but other than that.

any Clips of you on a groomer? Might help answer technique questions better.

 

[razie]

Unfort they are.

Well, on the bright side, that looks like your biggest issue... the cuff is both too soft and likely leaning too strong up against the leg. That's some performance there man, a 120 is inadequate. Not sure how much you can tolerate in your usual terrain...

Don't know if you can stiffen it up some, maybe with some custom liners - I like the Pro Tongues, they must be adding like a 10 or such.

When the cuff is too soft for the performance you're getting, you'll jam the bottom of the turns and make it hard to release. The cuff is also likely responsible for the knee drive. Should play with it if possible

Selling boots without adjustable cuffs is mean... I know they have to A&T but... maybe there's some options. Paging @Philpug here

 

[Noodler]

Well, on the bright side, that looks like your biggest issue... the cuff is both too soft and likely leaning too strong up against the leg. That's some performance there man, a 120 is inadequate. Not sure how much you can tolerate in your usual terrain...

Don't know if you can stiffen it up some, maybe with some custom liners - I like the Pro Tongues, they must be adding like a 10 or such.

When the cuff is too soft for the performance you're getting, you'll jam the bottom of the turns and make it hard to release. The cuff is likely responsible for the knee drive. Should play with it if possible

Selling boots without adjustable cuffs is mean... I know they have to A&T but... maybe there's some options. Paging @Philpug here

I think a stiffer Intuition liner can help. There's also this (which supposedly works):

https://pulserevelstokeshop.com/products/pulse-proflex

 

[Don Boyajian]

Skiing looks good to me honestly.

maybe a slight mismatch in the first video but other than that.

any Clips of you on a groomer? Might help answer technique questions better.

No groomer resort skiing clips, though I’ve been doing a lot of it at whiteface lately. Got me a pair of performance skis and everything. Kinda love it, which is why I’m getting all into technique. I’m self taught, and always just kinda skied without any thought. Now I’m trying to dedicate some time to technique. I’ll try to get some carving clips. Here’s the only non powder resort thing I have- it’s frozen bumps on Outer Limits at Killington on a foggy day when I thought it would be funny to ski in denim overalls. I’ll get some better resort clips this week skiing hard and carving down something steeper, if I can. Thanks again.

 

[Rdputnam515]

No groomer resort skiing clips, though I’ve been doing a lot of it at whiteface lately. Got me a pair of performance skis and everything. Kinda love it, which is why I’m getting all into technique. I’m self taught, and always just kinda skied without any thought. Now I’m trying to dedicate some time to technique. I’ll try to get some carving clips. Here’s the only non powder resort thing I have- it’s frozen bumps on Outer Limits at Killington on a foggy day when I thought it would be funny to ski in denim overalls. I’ll get some better resort clips this week skiing hard and carving down something steeper, if I can. Thanks again.

Same boots? If so I’m betting you are overpowering them turning carvers

also even some of the best mogul skiers in the world stem turn from time to time for course correction when it’s needed

 

[Don Boyajian]

Same boots? If so I’m betting you are overpowering them turning carvers

also even some of the best mogul skiers in the world stem turn from time to time for course correction when it’s needed

Those were different boots. It’s a very old clip. Those were a 115 head raptor. Were kinda soft. I ski a Lange RS 130 now…which I love. Honestly, I never got any work done to them, and I don’t really seem to A frame in them. They’re not really stiff either. Honestly, I like them best in the super cold days.

The boot in all the touring/backcountry clips is called a Salomon Mtn Lab, I think. It’s a 120 touring boot. I’ve never gotten along that well with it, but I’ve just kinda stuck with it.

 

[Philpug]

Have you had your alignment checked?

 

[HardDaysNight]

There’s nothing wrong with boots or alignment. Competent skiing in challenging, variable terrain. The most significant issue is the relative lack of early new inside leg activity - begin to release the old outside ski earlier and work on shortening and tipping that new inside leg more aggressively and you’re golden. Easy adjustment for someone with your skills.

 

[Rdputnam515]

There’s nothing wrong with boots or alignment. Competent skiing in challenging, variable terrain. The most significant issue is the relative lack of early new inside leg activity - begin to release the old outside ski earlier and work on shortening and tipping that new inside leg more aggressively and you’re golden. Easy adjustment for someone with your skills.

lots of people “overturn” in tough stuff.
Good eye there.
Still pretty good overall in my opinion. I haven’t instructed in years but it looks pretty good to me

 

[geepers]

Need the MA practice as well.

#1 - damn fine job all round.

#2...
Seeing a downstem, more prominent with the left foot.

Watch the "Adirondack slide skiing" vid (OP's "coulour" link) on 1/4 speed for the turns at 0:04.



And also visible in the attached mov file with the hoppity hop in the bumps.

It's more prominent on the left foot than the right but it's there as well.

There's a bit too much inside leg support and the outside foot is getting a little back (that's more in the pow than the bumps) so the tail steps out. (Firm bumps on those wide skis is going to be challenge getting grip anyway.)

Try some outside ski drills on soft groomers to make sure you really are engaging that ski. Also, in the pow try to pull that outside leg through to keep your outside foot between the forces coming from the snow and your body as the turn progresses - there's probably a fair bit of drag in that pow and have to compensate before it arrives.

Also worth a quick read...

Do You Downstem?​

In the pow image above compare where the outside foot is compared to this skier for similar points in the turn arc.

 

[razie]

Those were different boots. It’s a very old clip. Those were a 115 head raptor. Were kinda soft. I ski a Lange RS 130 now…which I love. Honestly, I never got any work done to them, and I don’t really seem to A frame in them. They’re not really stiff either. Honestly, I like them best in the super cold days.

The boot in all the touring/backcountry clips is called a Salomon Mtn Lab, I think. It’s a 120 touring boot. I’ve never gotten along that well with it, but I’ve just kinda stuck with it.

Cuffs are very rarely right from factory. Everyone of us has different feet and legs.

The RS should have cuff adjustment, you should do at least a verification if the cuff is centered. it's easy, takes about as long as posting here. You can also verify the cuffs of the 120 this way.

Remove liners, put the fiitbeds back in the shells. Get in.

Align the shells fore aft andaterally where the feet would fall from the hips, your favorite stance.

Standup looking forward at a mirror and see if the legs are centered in the cuffs. Then bend knees forward until contacting the cuffs and check again.

The cuff should be tilted left/right so that the leg is in the middle. That gives you equal response tipping left and right. If it's not in the middle, you'll get all manner of artifacts in your skiing.

On short turns it is a lot harder to release whenever you want. In carving turns, one can vary the timing a bit.

More info

P.s. If the 130 feels good on a cold day, the 120 is definitely soft for you, if you weren't convinced.

 

[Rdputnam515]

Cuffs are very rarely right from factory. Everyone of us has different feet and legs.

The RS should have cuff adjustment, you should do at least a verification if the cuff is centered. it's easy, takes about as long as posting here. You can also verify the cuffs of the 120 this way.

Remove liners, put the fiitbeds back in the shells. Get in.

Align the shells fore aft andaterally where the feet would fall from the hips, your favorite stance.

Standup looking forward at a mirror and see if the legs are centered in the cuffs. Then bend knees forward until contacting the cuffs and check again.

The cuff should be tilted left/right so that the leg is in the middle. That gives you equal response tipping left and right. If it's not in the middle, you'll get all manner of artifacts in your skiing.

On short turns it is a lot harder to release whenever you want. In carving turns, one can vary the timing a bit.

View attachment 153954

More info

P.s. If the 130 feels good on a cold day, the 120 is pretty soft for you.

Off topic but could this misalignment cause calf and knee pain?