Manufacturer vs Fitter vs Customer Fault

[Fred_K]

I went into a boot fitter for a new boot, tried on many different boots and after selecting (during the same sitting within a couple hours) salomon shift pro 120, the fitter modified for my foot resulting in a crack as seen below in the image. The fitter said this boot has different materials at this location on the boot. "we could either glue it, or get a new boot". I am an engineer and pointed out that the interface between different materials results in more likelihood of cracking as there are stress concentration, and asked about getting a different boot (manufacturer/model) and the fitter said no.

As you might see in the below image, the wall thickness of the boot changes at the red mark.

Is the manufacturer responsible? Fitter? Customer?

I left the boots behind, paying for them, but am uncomfortable with using this boot with mods needed due to my foot width.

What should I, as a customer do?

Thanks for any thoughts

 

[Philpug]

The fitter said this boot has different materials at this location on the boot. "we could either glue it, or get a new boot".

Get a new boot.

 

[Fred_K]

Get a new boot.

Thanks for the reply, Philpug. I don't even want this model as if I take ownership, and come back later to have it pushed back out again, then it's on me if it cracks. I'm saying that this manufacturer/model is not designed to be heated/pushed as it's susceptible to cracking. Are you a boot fitter? Would you be comfortable working with this manufacturer/model?

 

[Andy Mink]

I'm not sure I'm understanding. This is a brand new boot, never skied? The fitter did something, I'm guessing heated and punched, and now there's a crack? I wouldn't pay, and I certainly wouldn't accept the boot in that condition. I'd also probably find another fitter unless they refund you and get a different boot.

 

[Fred_K]

Andy Mink. New boot fitted, heated, punched, cracked all in same sitting (2 hours last night). When I asked about switching to a new manufacturer/model (as I am concerned that this manufacturer/model SHOULD NOT be heated/punched), I was told no. I'm concerned with even working with this fitter as they wanted to glue it and sell it to me brand new

 

[Lorenzzo]

If it were me I'd walk and dispute the charge with the CC company. And find a different boot guy, there are great ones out there.

 

[Fred_K]

Lorenzzo that is a good idea, but I've lived that path and the CC (citibank) doesn't always side with the customer. I have call into co-owner of fitter. Just looking for perspective

 

[Lorenzzo]

Lorenzzo that is a good idea, but I've lived that path and the CC (citibank) doesn't always side with the customer. I have call into co-owner of fitter. Just looking for perspective

Take the preliminary steps but I wouldn't ski in the boot and while I can't give legal advice I think with proper documentation you'd win in small claims. I use Citi and never had a problem with the several disputes I've had. Again, if it were me and I failed with all of the above, I'd eat it and still move on. But based on what you've said it doesn't sound like you'd have to eat it.

 

[cem]

ok so lets break this down....
the fitter punched the boot and it cracked... simple fact is the fitter did the punch incorrectly, the prevalence of the scott press in USA ski shops means that the boot shells are stressed heavily during stretching, in the UK/Europe wind down presses are much more commonly used and funnily enough this kind of problem does happen often. salomon even produced a series of videos about stretching on the junction of the main shell body and the core frame (the black insert material) showing different presses being used and methods to ensure there wasn't a problem

so Salomon being the company that they are will no doubt replace the boot to the fitter so he has got a new pair of the same thing , why he wont look at the different boot to this for you is the mystery, there are plenty of 100mm freeride touring boots out there.

now your comments "as an engineer" make me cringe, as soon as someone uses that line, unless they follow up with "in plastics" i can normally tell they don't know a whole heap about ski boot design and construction. yes the boot has different materials in that area, yes the different materials are bonded using physical and chemical bond and YES the boot can be stretched fairly extensively in that area WITH THE CORRECT TOOLS AND SKILLS

as a fitter i would be either hoping that they can do the work and not screw it up for a second time, or they would find a different boot to work on if that is what you needed, or if not just admit they weren't up to doing the job of fitting a boot for you and give you your money back for the product that you apparently don't have but have paid for

but ask me if i am comfortable punching this boot brand/model YES very comfortable but i have both the skills and the tools, which apparently your fitter lacks

 

[cem]

maybe show this video to your boot fitter, same core frame technology as in the shift boots

 

[Fred_K]

Thanks, Lorenzzo.

 

[Tricia]

ok so lets break this down....
the fitter punched the boot and it cracked... simple fact is the fitter did the punch incorrectly, the prevalence of the scott press in USA ski shops means that the boot shells are stressed heavily during stretching, in the UK/Europe wind down presses are much more commonly used and funnily enough this kind of problem does happen often. salomon even produced a series of videos about stretching on the junction of the main shell body and the core frame (the black insert material) showing different presses being used and methods to ensure there wasn't a problem

so Salomon being the company that they are will no doubt replace the boot to the fitter so he has got a new pair of the same thing , why he wont look at the different boot to this for you is the mystery, there are plenty of 100mm freeride touring boots out there.

now your comments "as an engineer" make me cringe, as soon as someone uses that line, unless they follow up with "in plastics" i can normally tell they don't know a whole heap about ski boot design and construction. yes the boot has different materials in that area, yes the different materials are bonded using physical and chemical bond and YES the boot can be stretched fairly extensively in that area WITH THE CORRECT TOOLS AND SKILLS

as a fitter i would be either hoping that they can do the work and not screw it up for a second time, or they would find a different boot to work on if that is what you needed, or if not just admit they weren't up to doing the job of fitting a boot for you and give you your money back for the product that you apparently don't have but have paid for

but ask me if i am comfortable punching this boot brand/model YES very comfortable but i have both the skills and the tools, which apparently your fitter lacks

This 100%

 

[Fred_K]

cem (and tricia) thanks for your thoughts

now your comments "as an engineer" make me cringe, as soon as someone uses that line, unless they follow up with "in plastics"

Yep. get that too. I have performed stress analysis (FEM) on aircraft structures (aluminum) and have been trained in

Rheology - Wikipedia

but haven't performed plastics stress analysis in practice. I'd agree it's not a simple as it seems but am trying to be fair (that's why I'm posting to practitioners here), figured I'd get comments and your thoughts are valuable as they help me develop my response to the fitter with which I'm working.

Have a great day (and season, if we don't chat again).

 

[Andy Mink]

Have a great day (and season, if we don't chat again).

Nope, you have to come back and let us know what happens!

 

[Tony S]

Exhibit 739b in the case for why we all hate dealing with boots. In the end it's you and the shop, no matter how many thoughtful, knowledgeable, and logical kibitzers weigh in on SkiTalk. They carry no weight with your guy. In fact IME it's almost certainly a liability to mention them.

 

[KingGrump]

I don't understand the situation here. The fitter mod the boot. Cracked the boot in the process. That's the fitter's fault. The boots are still in the fitter's possession. Should never paid the fitter until the merchandise is ready for transfer.

Stop payment on the purchase. Run, not walk away from that shop.

FWIW, I have cracked many boots after skiing on them for a while. Have always received warranty replacements with no issue. Find a good shop and spend your money there.

 

[Roundturns]

I think King Grump is providing good advice! The perspective I take is you were never provided the opportunity to make an informed decision for yourself. That being if the fitter explained before hand there was a chance the shell could crack when doing the modification and you would still be expected to purchase the boot and they would glue it or whatever , likely you would have said “No Thanks”.

The video CEM provided confirms the shop you were at is pretty deficient regarding fitting a brand of boot they carry.

 

[raytseng]

I think a possible reason for the glue option, has to do with timing and supply chain. I can imagine the scenario, if you need boots by next week, and the cracked pair is the only pair for you they have in stock...this maybe the only option to get boots.

Obviously on the flip side, assuming if the shop has more pairs avail, they still maybe conserving inventory and are trying not to blow a pair on replacement, even if they will be reimbursed by Salomon. Not an excuse, just a possible explanation.

I had a pair of skis replaced under warranty before, and not only did it take 4weeks to get straightened out, and the shop ended up just replacing with an different model they had in stock and never got replacement t skis from the factory...

TLDR, timing is an issue and factor if you need the boots soon.

 

[Tony S]

maybe show this video to your boot fitter, same core frame technology as in the shift boots

Maybe the OP will let us know us know how that goes over. How would you take it if an almost-new customer walked in and tried to get you to spend precious time watching a video that someone on the internet suggested would be helpful when fitting Salomon boots? Be honest. YOU know and I know that the "someone on the internet" is a respected fitter (you), but this dude may not. And even if he does, that might put him off even more, psychology being what it is.

[I had a big long post here that once again probed several roots of the intense frustration that civilians sensitive to their boot setups have while trying to obtain a really good fit in a suitable boot. I deleted the whole thing because it just feels futile when I know I will get a ton of blowback from the insider folks here who have instant credibility and respect when they sit down on the fittee's bench.]

 

[Tricia]

cem (and tricia) thanks for your thoughts



Yep. get that too. I have performed stress analysis (FEM) on aircraft structures (aluminum) and have been trained in

Rheology - Wikipedia

but haven't performed plastics stress analysis in practice. I'd agree it's not a simple as it seems but am trying to be fair (that's why I'm posting to practitioners here), figured I'd get comments and your thoughts are valuable as they help me develop my response to the fitter with which I'm working.

Have a great day (and season, if we don't chat again).

Please come back to tell us how it goes.