Meet the new Gore-tex, same as (or better than?) the old Gore-tex?

[Marker]

For those that don't know Goretex comes from the Telecommuications industry as a bi-product. The fibre is comes from the Dielectric material of a nitrogen injected polypropylene foam used to increase the velocity factor of coax (speed % of the speed of light). The bi-product is the foam (which is still used as designed) by in Fabric as a thin thread we now know as Goretex.

Ah, no. First, the company is W. L. Gore and Associates and the product is Gore-Tex. I know folks that have worked there for years, they are all known as Associates. Gore-Tex is an expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE) membrane produced by stretching a film to create the microporous membrane. I believe they enhance the stretching of the film by impregnating with solvents. Gore uses a special grade of high molecular weight PTFE (think of it as fluorinated ptex) made exclusively for them first by DuPont and now Chemours when it was spun off as a chemicals business. Back in the day, we used ePTFE as a reinforcement for fuel cell membranes based on Nafion, a specialty PTFE copolymer. I worked on the PTFE copolymers for that project.

The GORE-TEX Membrane: What it is, how it works and why you need it

The GORE-TEX membrane: you know it’s got something to do with why everything in the original GORE-TEX products range is waterproof, windproof, and breathable. But do you know what it is, exactly? Or how it works? Don’t worry if not—you’re in the right place. We’re going to tell you everything...

www.gore-tex.com

DuPont passed on the cables and Gore-Tex business and let Bob Gore take it out on his own since they thought of PTFE as a chemicals business. I never understood this as I started in Fibers Dept., which made similar kinds of products like Tyvek, a microporous polyethylene spun-bonded fabric that I'm sure you all know as well. The fellow (Herb Blades) that invented Tyvek also invented the spinning process for Kevlar fiber. I got to meet him once after he had retired, just a humble, unassuming, creative guy.

 

[James]

Ah, no. First, the company is W. L. Gore and Associates and the product is Gore-Tex. I know folks that have worked there for years, they are all known as Associates. Gore-Tex is an expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE) membrane produced by stretching a film to create the microporous membrane. I believe they enhance the stretching of the film by impregnating with solvents. Gore uses a special grade of high molecular weight PTFE (think of it as fluorinated ptex) made exclusively for them first by DuPont and now Chemours when it was spun off as a chemicals business. Back in the day, we used ePTFE as a reinforcement for fuel cell membranes based on Nafion, a specialty PTFE copolymer. I worked on the PTFE copolymers for that project.

The GORE-TEX Membrane: What it is, how it works and why you need it

The GORE-TEX membrane: you know it’s got something to do with why everything in the original GORE-TEX products range is waterproof, windproof, and breathable. But do you know what it is, exactly? Or how it works? Don’t worry if not—you’re in the right place. We’re going to tell you everything...

www.gore-tex.com

DuPont passed on the cables and Gore-Tex business and let Bob Gore take it out on his own since they thought of PTFE as a chemicals business. I never understood this as I started in Fibers Dept., which made similar kinds of products like Tyvek, a microporous polyethylene spun-bonded fabric that I'm sure you all know as well. The fellow (Herb Blades) that invented Tyvek also invented the spinning process for Kevlar fiber. I got to meet him once after he had retired, just a humble, unassuming, creative guy.

Is it necessary to use the pfoa’s or pfas’s (or whatever they are) that they need for the wire production and formerly teflon pans. Like wad done in the past and dumped it in the ground polluting the ground water in Hoosick Falls.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Ah, no. First, the company is W. L. Gore and Associates and the product is Gore-Tex. I know folks that have worked there for years, they are all known as Associates. Gore-Tex is an expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE) membrane produced by stretching a film to create the microporous membrane. I believe they enhance the stretching of the film by impregnating with solvents. Gore uses a special grade of high molecular weight PTFE (think of it as fluorinated ptex) made exclusively for them first by DuPont and now Chemours when it was spun off as a chemicals business. Back in the day, we used ePTFE as a reinforcement for fuel cell membranes based on Nafion, a specialty PTFE copolymer. I worked on the PTFE copolymers for that project.

The GORE-TEX Membrane: What it is, how it works and why you need it

The GORE-TEX membrane: you know it’s got something to do with why everything in the original GORE-TEX products range is waterproof, windproof, and breathable. But do you know what it is, exactly? Or how it works? Don’t worry if not—you’re in the right place. We’re going to tell you everything...

www.gore-tex.com

DuPont passed on the cables and Gore-Tex business and let Bob Gore take it out on his own since they thought of PTFE as a chemicals business. I never understood this as I started in Fibers Dept., which made similar kinds of products like Tyvek, a microporous polyethylene spun-bonded fabric that I'm sure you all know as well. The fellow (Herb Blades) that invented Tyvek also invented the spinning process for Kevlar fiber. I got to meet him once after he had retired, just a humble, unassuming, creative guy.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is tied together with Gore Industries, the primary developers of high velocity coaxial cable late 50's and 60's (if memory serves), Bob Gore is the son of this industrial giant. If memory is correct Bob, brought this technology to the telecommunications company. There was an article in Microwave Times (or similar trade paper) about 10 years back). BTW the expansion occurs with the use of nitrogen gas to reduce the the wt, the as a side effect allows water vapor to pass thru yet water can not. The designed intent and still used as such was to allow the cable to ncrease transmission of information (simplified for those that don't understand) from about 66% of the speed of light to 80-85% the speed of light. Yes you are also correct in the chemical portion and Bob was allowed to take it into a separate devision.

BTW I am very directly involved in this industry.

If I can find the article I will post it.

 

[VickiK]

@Ron said skiing with helmet vents open even in very cold temps with a wicking skull cap was much more comfortable overall.

Hey! I have a beanie that'll work, imma gonna try this out.

 

[James]

For those that don't know Goretex comes from the Telecommuications industry as a bi-product. The fibre is comes from the Dielectric material of a nitrogen injected polypropylene foam used to increase the velocity factor of coax (speed % of the speed of light). The bi-product is the foam (which is still used as designed) by in Fabric as a thin thread we now know as Goretex.

Never seen polypropylene discussed with Goretex, it’s always ptfe.
Looks like the cable your talking about was MULTI-TET? And they, the Gores, figured out how to use ptfe to insulate the copper in the late 50’s.
The expanded ptfe, the basis for Goretex looks like it came later, 1969.
I still don’t getting from stretching rods to making sheets of it.

———————
Bill and Vieve’s son, Bob, joined the company in 1963. Bob, too, was an entrepreneur and innovator. Just as his father had a decade before, in 1969 Bob considered PTFE and wondered if there was an opportunity to do more with the material. If the PTFE could be expanded, he thought, the increased amount of air would allow the material to be more lightweight, pliable and cost-effective.
Bob experimented with PTFE in an effort to expand it, first heating up rods of PTFE and then gradually pulling it from either end — but the rods broke every time.
Exasperated, Bob finally gave the rod of PTFE an accelerated pull. To his shock, the PTFE expanded ten times its original size!

He immediately recognized what this meant. More possibilities! The expanded material was 70% air, enabling Gore to fill the ePTFE with complementary materials. The ePTFE was incredibly lightweight yet strong. It was porous and versatile — and the key to introducing Gore’s core technology to many, many more applications. Gore was beginning to test out new concepts and explore new possibilities using the multiple properties of the expanded polymer material…

…Each ePTFE membrane consists of nodes connected by fibrils. Our engineers use their material science expertise to customize the geometry of the fibrils and nodes to customize the functionality — like greater or reduced airflow, or resistance to tissue ingrowth — that are optimized for the application…
—————————

Materials Science Innovation

www.gore.com

 

[oldschoolskier]

Never seen polypropylene discussed with Goretex, it’s always ptfe.
Looks like the cable your talking about was MULTI-TET? And they, the Gores, figured out how to use ptfe to insulate the copper in the late 50’s.
The expanded ptfe, the basis for Goretex looks like it came later, 1969.
I still don’t getting from stretching rods to making sheets of it.

———————
Bill and Vieve’s son, Bob, joined the company in 1963. Bob, too, was an entrepreneur and innovator. Just as his father had a decade before, in 1969 Bob considered PTFE and wondered if there was an opportunity to do more with the material. If the PTFE could be expanded, he thought, the increased amount of air would allow the material to be more lightweight, pliable and cost-effective.
Bob experimented with PTFE in an effort to expand it, first heating up rods of PTFE and then gradually pulling it from either end — but the rods broke every time.
Exasperated, Bob finally gave the rod of PTFE an accelerated pull. To his shock, the PTFE expanded ten times its original size!

He immediately recognized what this meant. More possibilities! The expanded material was 70% air, enabling Gore to fill the ePTFE with complementary materials. The ePTFE was incredibly lightweight yet strong. It was porous and versatile — and the key to introducing Gore’s core technology to many, many more applications. Gore was beginning to test out new concepts and explore new possibilities using the multiple properties of the expanded polymer material…

View attachment 141581

…Each ePTFE membrane consists of nodes connected by fibrils. Our engineers use their material science expertise to customize the geometry of the fibrils and nodes to customize the functionality — like greater or reduced airflow, or resistance to tissue ingrowth — that are optimized for the application…
—————————

Materials Science Innovation

www.gore.com

My mistake, you are correct in the plastic.

 

[Marker]

Is it necessary to use the pfoa’s or pfas’s (or whatever they are) that they need for the wire production and formerly teflon pans. Like wad done in the past and dumped it in the ground polluting the ground water in Hoosick Falls.

Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) was used as a surfactant during the polymerization of tetrafluoroethylene to make PTFE in aqueous emulsions until it was found to be a problem, but since it is highly persistent that damage is done. It was very broadly used in all PTFE production for wire, non-stick, Gore-Tex, etc. I never used it personally. Folks I knew worked on developing alternative surfactants that are not persistent, but I'm not sure what they use now. One of our ski friends worked over in the fluoroproducts businesses and she told me all about Hoosick Falls when we drove through there once. Ouch! The Washington Works plant in Parkersburg, WV were they manufacture a lot of PTFE has similar problems from past use of PFOA.

 

[Marker]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is tied together with Gore Industries, the primary developers of high velocity coaxial cable late 50's and 60's (if memory serves), Bob Gore is the son of this industrial giant. If memory is correct Bob, brought this technology to the telecommunications company. There was an article in Microwave Times (or similar trade paper) about 10 years back). BTW the expansion occurs with the use of nitrogen gas to reduce the the wt, the as a side effect allows water vapor to pass thru yet water can not. The designed intent and still used as such was to allow the cable to ncrease transmission of information (simplified for those that don't understand) from about 66% of the speed of light to 80-85% the speed of light. Yes you are also correct in the chemical portion and Bob was allowed to take it into a separate devision.

BTW I am very directly involved in this industry.

If I can find the article I will post it.

Sure, but I'm correct in everything I said. Polypropylene is not used in Gore-Tex or ePTFE, and they are not produced using nitrogen. The stretching of the PTFE film into a microporous membrane is enhanced using solvents. I even heard once they started with kerosene since it has low volatility. Go figure. I never commented on the wire and cable business if that is your bailiwick, it never was mine. They must have developed other products for that market. Bill and Bob Gore were adored by their associates, at least the ones I know, for their hands-on technology management despite their business success. The HQ is literally 10 minutes from my house.

W. L. Gore & Associates

This synthetic fabric manufacturer of Gore-Tex and Glide dental floss has a long tradition of making money and having fun doing so, dating back to the 1950s and 60s, when Bill and Vieve Gore invited all associates over to their home for the annual company picnic. Now, plants hold celebrations...

fortune.com

 

[Jimski]

OK.....

So, getting back to my original question, is 2021 the first product year in which one would find the new Gore-Tex Pro 2.0?

 

[tazdevl]

A former company I worked for had the longest running IP lawsuit in history re ePTFE (Gore/Bard/Goldfarb). We won. Gore lost. Iirc they’re still paying as are other companies.

I used it as a covering (inner/outer lumen) for vascular stent grafts/covered stents. Great mechanical barrier for restenosis vs a pharmacological control ala drug eluding stents. Best analogy… bare metal stent is screen door in a rain storm, covered stent is a storm door.

i worked next door to Gores HQ in Newark, DE pre-med device. Had dinner at the Gore elders place a couple times. Really good people, previous comments about them are spot on.

I bought a TNF futurelight shell and bibs a couple seasons ago. Super happy with their performance and way quieter that any 3 layer Gore Tex stuff Plus they breathe stupidly well.

 

[Tom K.]

A former company I worked for had the longest running IP lawsuit in history re ePTFE (Gore/Bard/Goldfarb). We won. Gore lost. Iirc they’re still paying as are other companies.

Was this the NZ guy -- Bob Crop? -- that invented it first, in 1966, but went the trade secret route instead of patenting it, won in lower court against Gore in Illinois or Indiana or Ohio, then lost on appeal?

Why do I remember crap like this?!

To point: Doesn't matter how well Gore Tex breathes. If it's humid outside, you're going to be humid inside! If it had the ability to make the humidity inside your coat less than that of the outdoor air, it would be akin to a perpetual motion machine.

 

[Ogg]

To point: Doesn't matter how well Gore Tex breathes. If it's humid outside, you're going to be humid inside! If it had the ability to make the humidity inside your coat less than that of the outdoor air, it would be akin to a perpetual motion machine.

This hits it on the head and I suspect is the reason I have condensation issues. If you live in the high desert you most likely have almost no experience with the type of humidity we get on the east coast and PNW. I don't remember having any moisture issues in UT or WY.

 

[cantunamunch]

This hits it on the head and I suspect is the reason I have condensation issues. If you live in the high desert you most likely have almost no experience with the type of humidity we get on the east coast and PNW. I don't remember having any moisture issues in UT or WY.

Any fellow east coasters getting consistent sweat ice on the inside of their shells below 20F?

 

[Marker]

A former company I worked for had the longest running IP lawsuit in history re ePTFE (Gore/Bard/Goldfarb). We won. Gore lost. Iirc they’re still paying as are other companies.

I used it as a covering (inner/outer lumen) for vascular stent grafts/covered stents. Great mechanical barrier for restenosis vs a pharmacological control ala drug eluding stents. Best analogy… bare metal stent is screen door in a rain storm, covered stent is a storm door.

i worked next door to Gores HQ in Newark, DE pre-med device. Had dinner at the Gore elders place a couple times. Really good people, previous comments about them are spot on.

I bought a TNF futurelight shell and bibs a couple seasons ago. Super happy with their performance and way quieter that any 3 layer Gore Tex stuff Plus they breathe stupidly well.

Yep, DuPont had worked with Gore at one point on fuel cell membranes and their reinforcement with ePTFE. There was always the argument of who invented it first, but I believe they had a co-patent. I have used and probably worn plenty of ePTFE, but I can't say it was all made by Gore.

 

[Marker]

OK.....

So, getting back to my original question, is 2021 the first product year in which one would find the new Gore-Tex Pro 2.0?

I don't know the technology, but if you are talking about the new Gore-Tex Infinium, it sounds like a inferior version of the product that only works well in drier climates. Somewhere else I saw that it is not totally water-proof and only protects in light rain, but breathes well and good for dry climates.

Products endorsed by GORE-TEX Labs

Totally windproof, reliably breathable, and water-resistant protection from WINDSTOPPER® products endorsed by GORE-TEX LABS. Upgrade your comfort and performance when it’s windy, cold, or there’s a chance of showers.

www.gore-tex.com

 

[tazdevl]

This hits it on the head and I suspect is the reason I have condensation issues. If you live in the high desert you most likely have almost no experience with the type of humidity we get on the east coast and PNW. I don't remember having any moisture issues in UT or WY.

I’m originally a PNW boy and agree w you on that vs now being in CO. Also, used to wear my Gore Tex shells when weather was temperate but raining when I lived in Hong Kong/Singapore aka monsoon season, it was like wearing a greenhouse.

 

[tazdevl]

Was this the NZ guy -- Bob Crop? -- that invented it first, in 1966, but went the trade secret route instead of patenting it, won in lower court against Gore in Illinois or Indiana or Ohio, then lost on appeal?

Why do I remember crap like this?!

To point: Doesn't matter how well Gore Tex breathes. If it's humid outside, you're going to be humid inside! If it had the ability to make the humidity inside your coat less than that of the outdoor air, it would be akin to a perpetual motion machine.

Don’t remember all the details. I was involved in the periphery and educated our IP attorney on my product since it utilized eptfe. Iirc we also had some IP conflict with Gore on pore size too. There was a optimal config that allowed for minimal incorporation of the implant which is a good thing, but still prevented restenosis.

 

[JohnnyG]

OK.....

So, getting back to my original question, is 2021 the first product year in which one would find the new Gore-Tex Pro 2.0?

Last time I posted a link from here, I got scolded, but here's a podcast about it: https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/gores-3-new-gore-tex-pro-fabrics-ep-71

 

[JohnnyG]

I don't know the technology, but if you are talking about the new Gore-Tex Infinium, it sounds like a inferior version of the product that only works well in drier climates. Somewhere else I saw that it is not totally water-proof and only protects in light rain, but breathes well and good for dry climates.

Products endorsed by GORE-TEX Labs

Totally windproof, reliably breathable, and water-resistant protection from WINDSTOPPER® products endorsed by GORE-TEX LABS. Upgrade your comfort and performance when it’s windy, cold, or there’s a chance of showers.

www.gore-tex.com

I believe Infinium is the renamed Windstopper

 

[Shawn]

Does anyone have thoughts on GORE-TEX Stretch Pro as a daily-driver shell material for Eastern U.S. resort skiing? Will it be windproof and waterproof enough? The jacket I'm looking at is the Backcountry Cardiac GORE-TEX Pro jacket, which comes in a couple of colorways I like.