Michigander Seeks Advice on New Skis (Intermediate/Advanced)

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

These two skis cannot be compared on numbers alone. I suggest you watch this vide where I talk abotu narrow wide skis and wide narrow skis. I talk about the eTitan and Experience 86Ti but that what is said also relates the eRally and 82Ti

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Thank you again. While I had watched that video before, I’ve learned quite a bit since and I just watched it anew. Very valuable. I ran it back several times to be sure that I understood as much as I could, and I paused it occasionally to absorb all the captions—basically, I gave it the Zapuder film treatment!

Going into to this, I was mostly focused on sub-80 mm carving skis, mostly in the wider end of that range. That still may be where I end up, but I didn’t appreciate the “wide narrow” and “narrow wide” categories (or the differences between them) as much as I should have.

From your video and the reviews that I’ve read, it’s good to know that a ski like the Experience can still be a good tool for carving (and leaning to carve) on groomers. I did not previously appreciate that, and thought that to improve my carving that I needed a “carving ski.”

As you suggest in the video, I need to think more about exactly what type of profile and response I want from this next ski. But realizing that a ski like the Experience 82Ti still has a lot to offer in the way of carving is something that I need to keep in mind.

 

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

An eRally would be a fine ski for refining skills in MI. It's an incredibly versatile ski, so don't let the 'they don't do bumps and six inches of fresh on firm' nay sayers dissuade you. They most certainly do even if their pilots can't.

Thanks for that info. “Refining skills in MI” is the key phrase for me; that’s definitely my stage of skiing. I’m not a great carver yet, but I want to be.

And I appreciate that I would get some versatility out of the e-Rally, enough versatility, at least to cover essentially all of my conceivable local conditions.

 

[PisteOff]

One more comment……. I see the OP leaning towards the 82Ti. Don’t go that stiff. I made that mistake early on and bought a Rossignol Pursuit HD Ti. You really have to have some power behind you to bend them. I ended up being disappointed with the ski until I took them to Mammoth. What an eye opener.

Your average run time and speed on a SE Michigan run is going to be 16-30 seconds @ 30 MPH. You’re in the last few turns of the run before the stiffer skis starts to load up right and I weigh 35 more pounds than you do. I stepped down to the softer ski (E-80) and it was a game changer. The skis were now starting to load up in the 2nd and 3rd turn and by the 4th your rocketing across the fall line. The runs just aren’t long enough or steep enough to get you to there on the stiff ski unless you go with something really short (like WC slalom ski).

I felt similar then to how you do now about your level of proficiency skiing. All I’m going to say is this….it’s easy to feel like an advanced skier in MI. The reality of it is quite different. That was my experience after years of skiing MI. Now after several years of skiing the big mountains I just now consider myself to be making the transition from being an intermediate to the advanced stages of being a skier.

I’ve included some Carv readouts from an evening at Pine Knob. This is about an hours worth of skiing. I’d go in the evening for less traffic. Here you can see the max speed of each run. I know how long it takes because I used to run the NASTAR track on the next run over and you had to run sub 17 to medal.

Again, this was my experience when working on the very same thing. I learned how to carve at Pine Knob. I learned how to ski out west.

Jeff

 

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

One more comment……. I see the OP leaning towards the 82Ti. Don’t go that stiff. I made that mistake early on and bought a Rossignol Pursuit HD Ti. You really have to have some power behind you to bend them. I ended up being disappointed with the ski until I took them to Mammoth. What an eye opener.

Your average run time and speed on a SE Michigan run is going to be 16 seconds @ 30 MPH. You’re in the last few turns of the run before the stiffer skis starts to load up right and I weigh 35 more pounds than you do. I stepped down to the softer ski (E-80) and it was a game changer. The skis were now starting to load up in the 2nd and 3rd turn and by the 4th your rocketing across the fall line. The runs just aren’t long enough or steep enough to get you to there on the stiff ski unless you go with something really short (like WC slalom ski).

I felt similar then to how you do now about your level of proficiency skiing. All I’m going to say is this….it’s easy to feel like an advanced skier in MI. The reality of it is quite different. That was my experience after years of skiing MI. Now after several years of skiing the big mountains I just now consider myself to be making the transition from being an intermediate to the advanced stages of being a skier.

I’ve included some Carv readouts from an evening at Pine Knob. This is about an hours worth of skiing. I’d go in the evening for less traffic. Here you can see the max speed of each run. I know how long it takes because I used to run the NASTAR track on the next run over and you had to run sub 17 to medal.

Again, this was my experience when working on the very same thing. I learned how to carve at Pine Knob. I learned how to ski out west.

Jeff

Thank you. This is all very interesting, and I really appreciate all of the detail. I definitely get that SE Michigan is not out west (or the east coast), but I didn’t understand how the length of a run can affect the characteristics of a ski.

Trying to translate your advice about flex into the current Rossingol range. If I go with Rossingol, should I be looking more at the 82 Basalt or the 80 Carbon? Trouble is, unless I’m missing it, neither come flat—and I really want those Tyrolia Protector bindings.

 

[GregK]

The latest Experience line varies only a small amount between the flex and weight of the carbon, basalt and Ti versions. The carbon and basalt are actually a bit stiffer flexing than the Ti but the Ti will be a bit more damp and have better edge hold because of the increased torsional rigidity of the Ti version.
Common misconception that the Ti or metal version is always super stiff and demanding as it’s not always the case.

The older Rossignol Pursuit HD Ti were a very stiff, heavy and demanding ski aimed at those that were already advanced skiers. The bindings were also heavier back then too. Definitely wouldn’t be recommending a ski like that either for you.

Also ski in Ontario in similar conditions with a large quiver. For my conditions were were also confirmed by your description of yours that is more important than “fresh powder days” is the ability of the ski to go through heavy afternoon crud which is very common especially in the Spring.
The tip design of the Experience line is not going to be quite as direct as a narrow carving ski but it will pay huge dividends in the afternoons or when night skiing if they don’t groom the runs again mid day. Will not be as catchy in crud and I bet will give more confidence to talking on more terrain than just smooth groomers.

When you get more experience under your belt, then get a pair of narrower carving skis to really carve it up on the firm days! Then you’d have a nice 2 ski quiver for most east coast conditions.

 

[PisteOff]

Thank you. This is all very interesting, and I really appreciate all of the detail. I definitely get that SE Michigan is not out west (or the east coast), but I didn’t understand how the length of a run can affect the characteristics of a ski.

Trying to translate your advice about flex into the current Rossingol range. If I go with Rossingol, should I be looking more at the 82 Basalt or the 80 Carbon? Trouble is, unless I’m missing it, neither come flat—and I really want those Tyrolia Protector bindings.

“but I didn’t understand how the length of a run can affect the characteristics of a ski.”

I’m saying the length/pitch of the run is a limiting factor as it relates to potential energy. The ski is what it is. Where you take it and how you drive it will determine what you get out of it.

The stiffer the ski the more energy it takes to bend the ski. Watch any video of a pro level skier start a carving run. It’s not until the 3rd or 4th turn until they really start to bend the ski and get the energy back out of the ski exiting the turn. It comes down to how the stiff the ski is, how much you weigh, how fast your going, and how well you can initiate a turn and get on edge. I won’t even broach technique and balance. Just keeping it simple. On the stiffer ski, at 190lbs. I would have to get more speed up to get the ski to really bend and perform than it took to get the softer ski to bend. Given limited run length/time and even more limited time at speed (having sufficient potential energy to fully flex the ski) I could only manage 3 high energy turns per run on the stiff ski (in the last 3rd of the run) versus 6-7 per run on the softer ski being able to utilize 2/3rds or more of the run to actually carve.

I don’t know much about the carbon experience.

Jeff

 

[PisteOff]

The latest Experience line varies only a small amount between the flex and weight of the carbon, basalt and Ti versions. The carbon and basalt are actually a bit stiffer flexing than the Ti but the Ti will be a bit more damp and have better edge hold because of the increased torsional rigidity of the Ti version.
Common misconception that the Ti or metal version is always super stiff and demanding as it’s not always the case.

The older Rossignol Pursuit HD Ti were a very stiff, heavy and demanding ski aimed at those that were already advanced skiers. The bindings were also heavier back then too. Definitely wouldn’t be recommending a ski like that either for you.

Also ski in Ontario in similar conditions with a large quiver. For my conditions were were also confirmed by your description of yours that is more important than “fresh powder days” is the ability of the ski to go through heavy afternoon crud which is very common especially in the Spring.
The tip design of the Experience line is not going to be quite as direct as a narrow carving ski but it will pay huge dividends in the afternoons or when night skiing if they don’t groom the runs again mid day. Will not be as catchy in crud and I bet will give more confidence to talking on more terrain than just smooth groomers.

When you get more experience under your belt, then get a pair of narrower carving skis to really carve it up on the firm days! Then you’d have a nice 2 ski quiver for most east coast conditions.

I agree with all of this…..

 

[PisteOff]

Here’s the ski I’m talking about. The one I own is Circa 2015. This is a rental from Winter Park last December. This friend of mine is another Michigan skier. This was his first out west experience. He spent the whole 12 hr drive to Winter Park telling Kevin and I how he used to tear up Boyne Mountains black terrain. We just chuckled. I recommended this rental to him and we took him onto blue groomers and proceeded to spend the day fetching his yard sales and coaching him. He did better the second day. Needless to say he was humbled.

The Experience 80 is the ski that both myself and my son “broke through” on in Michigan conditions. It changed everything for both of us. I haven’t skied any of the new Experience line so I will defer to @GregK and Phil and others as to flex comparisons between the newer versions.

Jeff

 

[markojp]

Thanks for that info. “Refining skills in MI” is the key phrase for me; that’s definitely my stage of skiing. I’m not a great carver yet, but I want to be.

And I appreciate that I would get some versatility out of the e-Rally, enough versatility, at least to cover essentially all of my conceivable local conditions.

FWIW, I grew up in TC, so MI conditions are never too far buried in the brain pan. Even ran gates at Alpine once many years ago.

 

[The Retired Skier]

The latest Experience line varies only a small amount between the flex and weight of the carbon, basalt and Ti versions. The carbon and basalt are actually a bit stiffer flexing than the Ti but the Ti will be a bit more damp and have better edge hold because of the increased torsional rigidity of the Ti version.
Common misconception that the Ti or metal version is always super stiff and demanding as it’s not always the case.

The older Rossignol Pursuit HD Ti were a very stiff, heavy and demanding ski aimed at those that were already advanced skiers. The bindings were also heavier back then too. Definitely wouldn’t be recommending a ski like that either for you.

Also ski in Ontario in similar conditions with a large quiver. For my conditions were were also confirmed by your description of yours that is more important than “fresh powder days” is the ability of the ski to go through heavy afternoon crud which is very common especially in the Spring.
The tip design of the Experience line is not going to be quite as direct as a narrow carving ski but it will pay huge dividends in the afternoons or when night skiing if they don’t groom the runs again mid day. Will not be as catchy in crud and I bet will give more confidence to talking on more terrain than just smooth groomers.

When you get more experience under your belt, then get a pair of narrower carving skis to really carve it up on the firm days! Then you’d have a nice 2 ski quiver for most east coast conditions.

GregK is right about the latest Rossignol Experience line. I demoed the 82 Basalt and 82 Ti together for two consecutive days at Mt. Bachelor in spring conditions that went from icy mornings to a brief period of nice hardpack to slush by early afternoon. I started day one on the Basalt version and absolutely LOVED it. I am a low intermediate and this was by far the easiest ski to ski well on that I have ever encountered. I could actually carve up the ice on them and these skis made it so easy! I switched out for the Ti after lunch and immediately loved, them, as well. Of course, the nicer conditions over the morning ice was a big reason, but the Ti skis were easy to carve and smooth as silk. Very stable and literally no chatter at all. When the slush came, these skis cut through it like a knife and I was grateful for the bit of early rise/rocker in the front and the slight rocker in the tails. Very easy and predictable with no catching!

The next day, which in terms of conditions ended up being exactly like the first, I started on the Ti. These were even more precise in the icy conditions than the Basalt, which I attributed to their smoother, more unflappable grip and increased torsional stability. They were amazingly easy to carve and I have never felt more confident on ice. Switching to the Basalt after lunch, I had the absolute best time I have ever had on skis during the prime conditions. I literally was linking multiple turns down long runs at slow, medium and even somewhat high (30+ mph) speeds down long runs of well over a mile. The skis were so easy to ski well and so easy to initiate and so easy to feel them "pop" you out of a turn. They also did nice in the afternoon slush but did get knocked around a tiny bit more than the Ti.

So, why all the detail? Well, because I am half-a-foot taller than you and 80 lbs heavier. The Basalt version easily held me and did all I needed and were quite easy for me to improve my skiing on, even in just a couple of days of use. I will add, however, that I actually bought a new pair of the 82 Ti on an incredible closeout deal I stumbled across while looking for new reviews on the two skis earlier in the summer. I ended up with the 82 Ti for a couple of reasons...one, I was able to clock my fastest speeds on the Ti, and I topped 40 mph twice on them during the two days. I also was able to clock slightly higher speeds on all three snow conditions with the Ti. I attribute this to the fact that the metal in the ski made them smoother and more stable under my (substantial) weight, which allowed me to do the same things at higher speed than the Basalt version, actually without even realizing it. This being said, I have no reservations whatsoever that the 82 Basalt would do the exact same thing for me if I were 180 lbs.

I think you'd love either ski. I didn't find the Ti very much more difficult to ski but I did find the Basalt to be a bit easier to ski well in terms of making carved turns and throwing the skis around when I needed to cut speed in a hurry (crowds!). I did manage greater speeds in all conditions with excellent control on the Ti, but that is with nearly 240 lbs bearing down on them.

I hope this helps!

 

[François Pugh]

The latest Experience line varies only a small amount between the flex and weight of the carbon, basalt and Ti versions. The carbon and basalt are actually a bit stiffer flexing than the Ti but the Ti will be a bit more damp and have better edge hold because of the increased torsional rigidity of the Ti version.
Common misconception that the Ti or metal version is always super stiff and demanding as it’s not always the case.

The older Rossignol Pursuit HD Ti were a very stiff, heavy and demanding ski aimed at those that were already advanced skiers. The bindings were also heavier back then too. Definitely wouldn’t be recommending a ski like that either for you.

Also ski in Ontario in similar conditions with a large quiver. For my conditions were were also confirmed by your description of yours that is more important than “fresh powder days” is the ability of the ski to go through heavy afternoon crud which is very common especially in the Spring.
The tip design of the Experience line is not going to be quite as direct as a narrow carving ski but it will pay huge dividends in the afternoons or when night skiing if they don’t groom the runs again mid day. Will not be as catchy in crud and I bet will give more confidence to talking on more terrain than just smooth groomers.

When you get more experience under your belt, then get a pair of narrower carving skis to really carve it up on the firm days! Then you’d have a nice 2 ski quiver for most east coast conditions.

All true. If you want to enjoy skiing for a couple of years and get some experience under your belt and then get a true carving ski and learn how to carve like an expert, by all means get an 80+ mm waisted ski and enjoy. If you want to take the short cut to carving heaven, get a Stockli SC NOW (notice I did not say FIS sl or Stockli SX or even Fischer SC); you will learn a lot faster.. If you are not skiing over 40 mph, you have no need for a radius over 13 to 15 m.

 

[GregK]

He’ll be “carving like an expert” by mid season with any of the skis mentioned in this thread with some practice and proper instruction. Just in time to grab some 23 Supershape skis with Protector bindings for his true carver for 30-40% off come March!

Actually was talking about some leftover 22 Supershapes yesterday with another SkiTalker as Corbetts has some Supershape E-Speed stock left still in 163cm and 170cm at $689.99 CAN/just over $500 US with bindings and free shipping. Insane price for a great ski!

 

[PisteOff]

Skiing in MI is monotonous by comparison to what I do now BUT to say we didn’t have a blast would be a lie. We did. We developed a love for the sport there that only continues to grow with each season. We did countless laps improving our balance and technique. Laps that paid dividends. The start of the season there always precluded our trips west so we always had our “ski legs” by the time we ventured out. Living 1/2 mile from Pine Knob and them having night skiing allowed me to work full time and still be able to ski multiple times per week. Pine Knob Patrol took my son in, spent a summer training him and others to garner him his OEC certificate and taught him many valuable skills over the hundreds of days and nights he volunteered there. We would not be where we are now in the sport without that 275’ hill in Michigan. We are forever grateful and cherish countless memories of those years.

@Subarctic Crawdaddy I hope the ski you choose fulfills it’s intended purpose. I hope you experience the growth and the joy of skiing that we did. If you ever decide to venture west get a hold of me and we’ll see if we can’t put something together. I would also strongly encourage you to attend the Ski Talk national gathering at your first opportunity. There are all different levels and preferences of skiing there and you will always have people to ski with. Many of whom will have varying degrees of familiarity with whatever mountain we are at.

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

[markojp]

MI ski diaspora.... just like dust, we're everywhere.

 

[François Pugh]

He’ll be “carving like an expert” by mid season with any of the skis mentioned in this thread with some practice and proper instruction. Just in time to grab some 23 Supershape skis with Protector bindings for his true carver for 30-40% off come March!

Actually was talking about some leftover 22 Supershapes yesterday with another SkiTalker as Corbetts has some Supershape E-Speed stock left still in 163cm and 170cm at $689.99 CAN/just over $500 US with bindings and free shipping. Insane price for a great ski!

That Supershape e speed would be a great choice.

 

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

Thanks for all for the detailed responses. I greatly appreciate that people have taken significant time to craft suggestions tailored to my locale, skill level, and size.

I am continuing to lean towards the 82Ti, given GregK's information that the current version of the titanium Experience series is not the beast Pursuit HD Ti that PisteOff encountered. I understand, as The Retired Skier suggests, that the Basalt version would likely be fine for me given my size. But I'm still focusing on the Ti because (1) I do want to eventually push its limits and (2) I really want those Protector bindings, and it doesn't look like the Basalt comes flat.

Eventually--maybe even at the end of the season, as GregK and Francois Pugh suggest--I may be looking for a more aggressive ski along the lines of those that I began this thread contemplating. But that's fine. If that happens, I expect that the 82Ti would still be great for travel and sub-optimal conditions. And keeping it around would allow me to go even more aggressive than the e-Rally for a carving ski (once I get to that point!).

Some specific questions, zeroing in on the Experience 82Ti. I'm assuming, that given my 5'7" 155 lb size, that I'd be best off with the 168? Also, even though my strong preference is to have the PR Tyrolia Protectors installed, I'm curious to know if there are any dissenters that think the SPX 12 (or another option) would be superior. But, as I see it, having the Protectors installed would be, as Phil put it earlier, a "Win/Win."

Still open to any and all thoughts, but I think I'm just about there. My local shop doesn't have all of their new stock in yet, but I swung by yesterday and confirmed that they will be carrying the Protector. They also had one Experience 82 Basalt on the shelf, and it was a good-looking ski.

 

[PisteOff]

Like skis, there are a lot of good bindings out there. I like Salomon STHII’s and Shifts. We’ve a bunch of skis with Tyrolia Attack Demos on them that were intentionally installed to allow the skis to be loaned/used by friends/family. Once we move on from a ski that doesn’t have a system binding we will remount them with Attack Demos and keep them in the fleet for others to use or for a nostalgic revisit. (Truth be told, we haven’t bought a system binding ski in years.). The other upside to a good demo or system binding is the ability to experiment with fore/aft mount points. There’s a lot of really good choices for bindings imho.

 

[Viking9]

No real Rossignol skier would ever put anything other than a Look binding on their ski , SPX 12 in your case.
Like putting ketchup on your bone in rib eye at Smith and Wollensky’s.

 

[Philpug]

No real Rossignol skier would ever put anything other than a Look binding on their ski ... SPX ...

Not sure I could ever say ever ....

But a SPX RockerRace would be great. Still the Pivot needs a brake between a 75 and 95mm

 

[Marker]

I'd like to interupt this thread to say, "I'm in Michigan right now as I'm typing this post" View attachment 178957

My sister-in-law is a Super UPer from the tip that extends into lake Superior. Unfortunately, she does not ski.