Need Bootfitting Advice - numbness

[laine]

I know there are professional bootfitters in this group - @Tricia @Philpug @Greg Whitehouse, as well as others I don't personally know - and I'm kinda at a loss and need some advice.

Current boots
Nordica Promachine 115W that I got a few years ago, size 22.5 (yes, I have small feet - women's 6.5). I have a narrow foot and I think a standard arch? (Maybe slightly high?). I have custom footbeds in the boots from Olympic Bootworks at Palisades where I got the boots.

Current situation
Numbness - to the point of real pain when the blood comes back. Pre-Covid, I was always a boot up in the lodge person. Get there early, bring in my boot bag, put on ski socks, and gear up there. At the end of the day, the boots would come off, I'd massage my feet to get the blood flow back - they were always cold to the touch and numb - and change my socks back to the ones I wore to the mountain. The soles of my feet were always white - and when you pressed on the ball of my foot, it would take a few mins for the color to come and go. As I massaged them, and the blood would come back, that time would speed up. It was an uncomfortable, somewhat painful process - but I could handle it.

That first season with the boots, I did go back to Buck at Olympic Bootworks a couple times to see if the numbness could be addressed. He punched out a bit and cut part of the elastic at the top of the foot (on the liner) as he thought that was where the pressure might be. But it didn't really help much.

I didn't ski in Tahoe this past season, but we did a trip to Utah (Park City) this past March. We stayed off the mountain and took the hotel shuttle to the slopes. So I booted up at the hotel. At the end of the day, we walked around a bit in the "village" to buy a hat, coffee, etc. and I had loosened my boots. As the blood started to flow back to my feet and they started to "thaw", it was a level of pain that I would not wish on anyone. I was literally almost in tears.

I went to a boot guy at the mountain (Bootworks) the next morning, and he punched a spot on the side of the foot where he said there is a blood flow pressure point. My feet still got numb, but I had less thaw pain because I did not loosen them at lunch and also - I wore Adidas slides to the mtn and stuck them in my backpack - so as soon as we were done skiing, I took off the boots and massaged my feet to get blood flow again. So it was some pain and pins & needles (similar to what I had experienced pre-Covid when I booted and de-booted in the lodge) but not nearly as much as the day before.

Note: I do NOT feel any hot spots in my current boots. I feel equal pressure all around. This is why I've been struggling to articulate "where it hurts". But I feel like there is something in my current boots is literally cutting off the blood supply to the front of my feet. I just don't know foot anatomy to figure out what that is. And the boots seem to fit the shape of my feet well, from what I can tell.

Oh, also, I have tried boot heaters and heated socks - but they literally made my feet feel like they were burning. It was painful, so I have stopped using those for now.

I just don't know what I should do. Is this something I have to deal with?

Do I need new boots? As I said, these seem to be the right shape for my foot shape, but I'm not a professional, so don't really know for sure. Maybe I need a higher volume boot.

Do I try ZipFits? If so, would I do that in my existing boots or new ones? Should I try Fischer Vacuum boots that form to my feet? Or Daleboot? Do they even come in a 22.5?

Do I need to find a bootfitter who is a Podiatrist who might have some deeper insight? Does that person even exist?

I'm willing to pay for no numbness/pain - but I don't want to keep trying/buying expensive boots every year (or every 3 years). Advice/thoughts welcome.....

Thanks.

 

[Henry]

Does this explain your situation?

 

[laine]

Interesting @Henry. That could be the issue! I don't feel a pressure point or pain on the inside of my boot, but it is quite snug all the way around. Maybe that's it? I just don't know.

 

[ted]

I recommend taking your socks off immediately after taking your boots off and looking for red spots to diagnose pressure points that you don’t feel.

 

[Wilhelmson]

What happens if you wear the boots at home for 2 or 3 hours?

 

[laine]

@Wilhelmson - I haven't worn them in the house for that long. But I can certainly give it a try. I'm not sure it would be much different since I'm not sure the air temp has much to do with circulation/numbness. And I'm not sure what it would tell me.....

 

[laine]

@ted - I do take my socks off pretty quickly after I go inside (pre-Covid times) - but I have never noticed a particular red spot. I've looked. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right place? Who knows? But I've never felt nor seen a real pressure point, to date.

 

[tube77]

Do you have spoilers? If you have, you can eliminate them first.
How hard do you tighten up the buckles, especially the top one?
If you tighten up hard the top buckle, then it can cause poor blood circulation through the calves.
Also if you tighten up hard the second buckle from the bottom, then that can also hinder blood circulation on your feet. You can see blood vessels on top of your feet.

 

[tube77]

One more thing.
You try thinner socks as well.

 

[Wilhelmson]

@Wilhelmson - I haven't worn them in the house for that long. But I can certainly give it a try. I'm not sure it would be much different since I'm not sure the air temp has much to do with circulation/numbness. And I'm not sure what it would tell me.....

Well it cant hurt : )

Actually I have had similar symptoms. A punch and very thin socks helped a lot. I did notice yesterday some top of foot pressure while my feet were dangling on the lift. So wearing boots at home would be a different environment. By random chance i wore some different broken in boots last weekend. They were roomier but I still had pressure on top of my foot/ ankle.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I know there are professional bootfitters in this group - @Tricia @Philpug @Greg Whitehouse, as well as others I don't personally know - and I'm kinda at a loss and need some advice.

Current boots
Nordica Promachine 115W that I got a few years ago, size 22.5 (yes, I have small feet - women's 6.5). I have a narrow foot and I think a standard arch? (Maybe slightly high?). I have custom footbeds in the boots from Olympic Bootworks at Palisades where I got the boots.

Current situation
Numbness - to the point of real pain when the blood comes back. Pre-Covid, I was always a boot up in the lodge person. Get there early, bring in my boot bag, put on ski socks, and gear up there. At the end of the day, the boots would come off, I'd massage my feet to get the blood flow back - they were always cold to the touch and numb - and change my socks back to the ones I wore to the mountain. The soles of my feet were always white - and when you pressed on the ball of my foot, it would take a few mins for the color to come and go. As I massaged them, and the blood would come back, that time would speed up. It was an uncomfortable, somewhat painful process - but I could handle it.

That first season with the boots, I did go back to Buck at Olympic Bootworks a couple times to see if the numbness could be addressed. He punched out a bit and cut part of the elastic at the top of the foot (on the liner) as he thought that was where the pressure might be. But it didn't really help much.

I didn't ski in Tahoe this past season, but we did a trip to Utah (Park City) this past March. We stayed off the mountain and took the hotel shuttle to the slopes. So I booted up at the hotel. At the end of the day, we walked around a bit in the "village" to buy a hat, coffee, etc. and I had loosened my boots. As the blood started to flow back to my feet and they started to "thaw", it was a level of pain that I would not wish on anyone. I was literally almost in tears.

I went to a boot guy at the mountain (Bootworks) the next morning, and he punched a spot on the side of the foot where he said there is a blood flow pressure point. My feet still got numb, but I had less thaw pain because I did not loosen them at lunch and also - I wore Adidas slides to the mtn and stuck them in my backpack - so as soon as we were done skiing, I took off the boots and massaged my feet to get blood flow again. So it was some pain and pins & needles (similar to what I had experienced pre-Covid when I booted and de-booted in the lodge) but not nearly as much as the day before.

Note: I do NOT feel any hot spots in my current boots. I feel equal pressure all around. This is why I've been struggling to articulate "where it hurts". But I feel like there is something in my current boots is literally cutting off the blood supply to the front of my feet. I just don't know foot anatomy to figure out what that is. And the boots seem to fit the shape of my feet well, from what I can tell.

Oh, also, I have tried boot heaters and heated socks - but they literally made my feet feel like they were burning. It was painful, so I have stopped using those for now.

I just don't know what I should do. Is this something I have to deal with?

Do I need new boots? As I said, these seem to be the right shape for my foot shape, but I'm not a professional, so don't really know for sure. Maybe I need a higher volume boot.

Do I try ZipFits? If so, would I do that in my existing boots or new ones? Should I try Fischer Vacuum boots that form to my feet? Or Daleboot? Do they even come in a 22.5?

Do I need to find a bootfitter who is a Podiatrist who might have some deeper insight? Does that person even exist?

I'm willing to pay for no numbness/pain - but I don't want to keep trying/buying expensive boots every year (or every 3 years). Advice/thoughts welcome.....

Thanks.

Been there done that, in my case it was a well intended liner replacement just to snug up the boot a bit (new-never used liners purchased from a member). Even though on fitting it felt perfect snug not tight, no pinching, it applied enough pressure in the wrong spot for the foot to go numb (like you describe) took me a while to realize it wasn't me, the shell but the liner. I went back to the original liner and haven't been happier.

In my case I can't tell you what exactly cause the issue, based on my measurements the liners are almost identical other than the replacement being a touch more softer and plusher. In your case I would suspect the same, except that your boot (shell, liner or maybe) both still need a little tweaking. Better experienced fitter I would think.

There is an extremely fine line between snug firm hold and snug just a touch too tight make boots an unpleasant experience.

.

 

[laine]

I actually wear pretty thin socks - Smartwool, no cushion women's ski socks. And they've been through the wash quite a few times, so are getting a little thinner. So I don't think socks are the issue.

@tube77 - I've definitely tried different variations of buckle tightness, while still right enough to feel like I'm in control. I mean, this has been going on for a few years, so I've definitely played around a bit - tho not sure I have removed the spoilers. I can try that.

@oldschoolskier - Yeah, wondering if I need a new insert? Or do I need a new boot? That video that Henry shared above is pretty interesting.

 

[Tony S]

Have you had any kind of medical evaluation for your foot issues? Might be worthwhile. If you demonstrably have medical condition x and bring that info to your fitter, s/he might have a better clue about how to address it.

 

[laine]

@Tony S - Well, that's why I was wondering if I could find a podiatrist bootfitter! I've gone to a podiatrist for custom insoles for my sneakers - but it's been a few years. Can't hurt. Would be good to find one locally who skis - so they understand a ski boot.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I actually wear pretty thin socks - Smartwool, no cushion women's ski socks. And they've been through the wash quite a few times, so are getting a little thinner. So I don't think socks are the issue.

@tube77 - I've definitely tried different variations of buckle tightness, while still right enough to feel like I'm in control. I mean, this has been going on for a few years, so I've definitely played around a bit - tho not sure I have removed the spoilers. I can try that.

@oldschoolskier - Yeah, wondering if I need a new insert? Or do I need a new boot? That video that Henry shared above is pretty interesting.

Better fitter, have him review your fit.

 

[bbinder]

My younger daughter had a similar issue. The boot felt fine in the shop or while wearing around the house. As soon as she started skiing with the boot she developed severe pain and numbness under her feet. The situation was bad enough that she only take 1-2 runs before she had to take the boots off. Loosening the buckles actually had no effect on the pain. She was back to same boot fitter (a very well regarded boot fitter) before getting some relief. In her case, removing material from under her foot bed helped her out. If I remember correctly, boot fitters at Masterfit U said that a flat foot and/or inflexible arch can cause this type of pain, and that this type of situation calls for a cushy arch.

 

[François Pugh]

You feet could be getting more susceptible to cold due to a worsening medical condition causing poor circulation in your feet, like for example, un-diagnosed diabetes. My heaters (Sidas) have three settings. The lowest setting doesn't do much, so you might be ok with that.

 

[Prosper]

You feet could be getting more susceptible to cold due to a worsening medical condition causing poor circulation in your feet, like for example, un-diagnosed diabetes. My heaters (Sidas) have three settings. The lowest setting doesn't do much, so you might be ok with that.

What you’re describing is diabetic neuropathy which is a known complication of diabetes. Typically it take about 10 years of having diabetes to develop complications like neuropathy, nephropathy (kidney disease), retinopathy (eye disease), etc. In my 20+ years of caring for diabetics I’ve never seen some with undiagnosed diabetes come in with just foot numbness and no other typical symptoms of diabetes. I think the likelihood of an undiagnosed significant systemic medical condition causing foot numbness only when you ski is extremely low. Your can rest your mind at ease.

 

[laine]

I don't think I have diabetes. I got bloodwork done a couple months ago and everything was good, except for my cholesterol. But I have low blood pressure and exercise pretty much every day, so I'm fine health-wise from that perspective.

 

[newboots]

This thread caused me to look up a diagram of the talus bone (it was too small to see well in the video). I always feel that boots (and shoes with footbeds) are too tight over my instep. Is this what they were discussing in the video? I'm not that good with anatomical diagrams.
@Henry ?