New beacon time and electronic interference

[Slim]

, but I wonder: in what situation would one have an active phone display and be involved in a search?

What if you had just checked your map, and put your phone away, and then the avalanche happened? The phone’s screen might be still on.
That’s why I mentioned I set my auto screen lock to a short time, and try and turn the screen off when I put the phone back in my pocket. But lots of times people don’t do that (I often don’t bother in normal life).

 

[robby]

Def good reason not to use heated gloves back country. Wonder if the heated socks matter.

According to an Austrian Mountain Rescue study:

• Device interference is much more problematic near the searcher than the buried.
• The effect of interference is a lesser distance at which signal is first detected.
• Heated gloves, when on and worn by the searcher, had a significant effect.
• Heated gloves, when off and worn by the searcher, had minimal impact.
• Heated socks or insoles, on or off, worn by searcher, had minimal impact.
• Heated socks or insoles, on or off, worn by victim, had no impact.

Details here:

 

[James]

The problem I have with turning the phone off, is that it takes quite a while, and you have to watch it all that time, because if you let go to soon, it turns back on,

I just went from iphone 7 to 13. Geez, turning off the 7 was quick. Now turning off the 13, I have to make a reservation and haggle with the maiître d’ just to turn it off.

 

[charlier]

Many professional organizations in North America and Europe are investigating passive and active EMI interference. For the present time, I prefer that my students or peeps not wear heated gloves, on or off. Heated socks could be located <20 - 30 cm from your transceiver and might be a source of interference during fine-search. It will take some time and effort to resolve active and passive EMI interference. For now, the 50/20 cm rule seems prudent.

 

[charlier]

What if you had just checked your map, and put your phone away, and then the avalanche happened? The phone’s screen might be still on.
That’s why I mentioned I set my auto screen lock to a short time, and try and turn the screen off when I put the phone back in my pocket. But lots of times people don’t do that (I often don’t bother in normal life).

@Slim - just follow the 5 step checklist/process for a companion rescue. Turn your phone off during the coarse and fine search, if you are the only rescuer.

 

[Slim]

I just went from iphone 7 to 13. Geez, turning off the 7 was quick. Now turning off the 13, I have to make a reservation and haggle with the maiître d’ just to turn it off.

Bummer, my 13 is supposed to arrive today to replace my 7 also!

 

[James]

Bummer, my 13 is supposed to arrive today to replace my 7 also!

Getting rid of the home button has all sorts of consequences.
Ok, since I last posted I found the new procedure for turning the 13 off. My 7’s battery was so bad I was always plugging it in to revive it after it died.

Press and hold power and a volume button together. Then the off slider pops up. So, it’s not that bad.
Most annoying the screen doesn’t rotate right side up if the connector/speaker side is up. So no plugging in with map right side up in a cup holder.
Maybe there’s a way around that.

 

[pais alto]

Most annoying the screen doesn’t rotate right side up if the connector/speaker side is up. So no plugging in with map right side up in a cup holder.
Maybe there’s a way around that.

 

[James]

^ Heh, yeah.
It’s like helmets. Once upon a time, helmets were warmer than hats. Now, you need a beanie, aka hat, under your helmet.

 

[gwasson]

Getting rid of the home button has all sorts of consequences.
Ok, since I last posted I found the new procedure for turning the 13 off. My 7’s battery was so bad I was always plugging it in to revive it after it died.

Press and hold power and a volume button together. Then the off slider pops up. So, it’s not that bad.
Most annoying the screen doesn’t rotate right side up if the connector/speaker side is up. So no plugging in with map right side up in a cup holder.
Maybe there’s a way around that.

If the phone is unlocked, ask Siri to power off your phone. Eazy peazy

 

[JonathanShefftz]

What if you had just checked your map, and put your phone away, and then the avalanche happened? [...]

What if ... what?
Makes no difference in your ability to be located as a victim.
That testing is reflected in my own write-up of the issue at beacon reviews, and in the ACC/CAA test.

 

[JonathanShefftz]

@Slim - just follow the 5 step checklist/process for a companion rescue. Turn your phone off during the coarse and fine search, if you are the only rescuer.

True, but that would not allow livestreaming to social media of your rescue efforts!

 

[JonathanShefftz]

On beacon reviews he does mention a short range, but that was a preproduction model, and not formally tested, so take that with a grain of salt.

The production model also has a shorter range than much of the competition.
Although still in line with some of its competition.

Here are the results up against some competition with long ranges.
(Just the luck of the draw the sample of beacons I happened to have with me for this round of testing, and I lacked any of the competition on the shorter end of the range spectrum.)
But despite that follow-up testing to my preproduction review, if I had to choose what beacon would be searching for *ME* by a searcher who is not into gadgetry in general and not into beacon searching in particular, my top pick would the Ortovox Diract Voice.

Beacon Tests for Initial Signal Acquisition Range (target = Ortovox M2)

Average range, for coupling =

Coupling

11-Jun-22​

Coupling:

Optimal

Worst

Loss

Trial:

1

2

3

4

1

2

3

4

Optimal

Worst

Range

Ortovox

Diract Voice

29.9​

28.7​

31.1​

30.2​

22.3​

18.9​

19.2​

19.2​

29.9​

19.9​

34%

Mammut

Barryvox S

45.4​

51.8​

50.3​

46.9​

27.4​

37.2​

29.9​

35.1​

48.6​

32.4​

33%

Pieps

Micro BT Button

49.7​

50.6​

50.0​

54.6​

31.4​

32.3​

31.7​

33.2​

51.2​

32.2​

37%

ARVA

Evo 5

49.7​

54.3​

56.1​

46.3​

36.3​

32.3​

29.9​

36.6​

51.6​

33.8​

35%

 

[JonathanShefftz]

I don’t think you’re overthinking the electronic interference issue. I did a few practice searches a few years ago with a huge crowd, and the signals coming in to my transceiver were wildly variant because of how many cell phones and Apple Watches were in the mix. Later, when I did a solo search, everything was fine (so it wasn’t user error). I wouldn’t turn off the SPOT/Inreach, but I’d try to have it not right next to your transceiver.

What exactly was the nature of the huge crowd and the mix of electronics?
If all the electronics were reasonably distanced from you, the searcher, then no way were phones, watches, etc. interfering with your search.
The ACC/CAA testing confirms my own findings on that.
And it's easy to confirm by yourself. For searcher interference, just put any random stuff up against your searching beacon, and you'll immediately see all sorts of weird stuff. By contrast, put a transmitting beacon on the ground/snow, stay at the edge of your signal acquisition range, have someone else place random electronics close to the transmitting beacon, and nothing will change. (Well, except for the power drill -- despite all my experience drilling holes in the snow first as an NCAA alpine race coach and now setting up skimo race courses, I never though of that in the context of beacon searching!)

 

[Pequenita]

What exactly was the nature of the huge crowd and the mix of electronics?

It was a Beacon & Eggs event with probably 80 people. This wasn't the year I did it, but I would say when I did, there were probably 10 people around me, likely all with their phones on, in addition to everyone else in the area. Go to :33 to get an idea of the crowd. Hopefully I am never backcountry skiing with that many people at the same time.

 

[James]

What exactly was the nature of the huge crowd and the mix of electronics?
If all the electronics were reasonably distanced from you, the searcher, then no way were phones, watches, etc. interfering with your search.
The ACC/CAA testing confirms my own findings on that.
And it's easy to confirm by yourself. For searcher interference, just put any random stuff up against your searching beacon, and you'll immediately see all sorts of weird stuff. By contrast, put a transmitting beacon on the ground/snow, stay at the edge of your signal acquisition range, have someone else place random electronics close to the transmitting beacon, and nothing will change. (Well, except for the power drill -- despite all my experience drilling holes in the snow first as an NCAA alpine race coach and now setting up skimo race courses, I never though of that in the context of beacon searching!)

What do you see as the right or preferred use for the Barryvox S analog listening mode?

 

[Slim]

@JonathanShefftz ,

Of course. We are talking about interface to the searching beacon, not the sending.

The question was, when/why would you have your phone screen turned on when you are doing a search.
This was my answer of a scenario where that might be case:
You take a photo or look at your map on your phone. Put phone back in pocket. Avalanche happens, you turn your beacon to search, and now you are receiving interference with your beacon from your phone screen.

 

[Slim]

I think based on this, from now on, I will be going to turning phone off for a search.

In the past I had not, thinking that airplane mode and >50cm was sufficient, so minimizing steps/time (and having phone ready to use faster after the rescue), seemed like the better choice to me.

 

[Arctos Guides]

Time for me to get a new avalanche beacon. I'm leaning towards the Black Diamond Guide BT, I had one of the old Pieps with the recalled harness and I believe it's fairly similar operation. My closeup vision isn't getting any better, so Im hoping to go physically touch some other models to see if I can see them any better without my glasses. Anyone have a suggestion that's easier to read? The Mammut looks to have a larger screen, I haven't touched one of those yet.

Another question is, I've been reading alot about the newer beacons and also about interference from other electronic devices and causing issues with the beacons. Recently I've began to carry a Spot into the backcountry. Not for the rescue aspect, but I like being able to message my wife that Im ok. Im horrible about predicting how long a ski tour, hike, kayak or mtb ride is going to take. Now I can tell her I think 3 hours, and when 3 hours is up I have a preprogrammed message I can send her that says 'I'm ok, taking longer than planned. Check in within a hour'. She can also follow my little bread crumb trail. But now I'm abit freaked out this 'safety' gadget(the spot) is messing with my other 'safety' gadget(beacon) and then there is my gps watch. Overthinking it??

This might be a good resource for you in your search: https://magazin.alpenverein.de/files/avalanche_transceiver_test2022_detailed_korr.pdf

 

[James]

This might be a good resource for you in your search: https://magazin.alpenverein.de/files/avalanche_transceiver_test2022_detailed_korr.pdf

The French use “DVA” and the Germans use “DAV” for a beacon?