Olden Days Ski Techniques - What Is Still Used, What Is In History's Dustbin?

[jyl]

As I may have mentioned before, I returned to skiing this year after well over 30 years away. I learned to ski in the late 1970s, skiied actively into the 1980s, then hardly skiied at all in the 1990s and then zero skiing until the waning days of last season and then enthusiastically resuming this season.

One thing I wanted to do, after getting used to my new gear and regaining some sort of snow legs, was to start taking lessons. So, last weekend I took a private lesson, the first of multiple I think, where the instructor pointed out the "old technique" things I do and started getting me to ski with "modern technique".

Naturally, this made me start reading about Ye Olden Days ski techniques - things we strongly associate with some past era of skiiing - and wondering if they still exist in modern disguise or if they are forever in the dustbin.

Examples - these just came to mind - "wedeln" turns and the Killy "jet turn".

Any thoughts about this? Like, when my instructor says I start my turns forward and end them back, can I pretend I'm just doing some groovy "avalement" or whatever?

 

[Tom K.]

I would LOVE to hear from you as to what your instructor considered "old" and "new" techniques.

 

[crgildart]

Kick turn still quite practical Fishbone and side step to climb up a steep pitch.

 

[Bad Bob]

Yard Sales are still very much a part of the ski scene.

You just touched on one of my buttons. Everything old is new again. In 1970 there were 7 'pillars' that were preached by PSIA, they were: forward lean, angulation, weight transfer, natural position, counter rotation, unweighting, total motion. Some have different titles, and are not as prevalent, but they are all still there.
An example; the difference between counter and upper lower separation is what exactly?
A jet turn and toppling are different how?
Most everything old is new again.

 

[François Pugh]

As I may have mentioned before, I returned to skiing this year after well over 30 years away. I learned to ski in the late 1970s, skiied actively into the 1980s, then hardly skiied at all in the 1990s and then zero skiing until the waning days of last season and then enthusiastically resuming this season.

One thing I wanted to do, after getting used to my new gear and regaining some sort of snow legs, was to start taking lessons. So, last weekend I took a private lesson, the first of multiple I think, where the instructor pointed out the "old technique" things I do and started getting me to ski with "modern technique".

Naturally, this made me start reading about Ye Olden Days ski techniques - things we strongly associate with some past era of skiiing - and wondering if they still exist in modern disguise or if they are forever in the dustbin.

Examples - these just came to mind - "wedeln" turns and the Killy "jet turn".

Any thoughts about this? Like, when my instructor says I start my turns forward and end them back, can I pretend I'm just doing some groovy "avalement" or whatever?

I guess it depends on what you learned. If you learned by reading Warren's "How the racer's ski" (hope I got that right; my memory ain't as good as I remember it once was), then tip and pressure the ski to make it take you where you want to go still applies.

 

[jyl]

I would LOVE to hear from you as to what your instructor considered "old" and "new" techniques.

I only heard it in the context of what I was doing in slow speed turns on a gentle slope. Think not much over 5 mph on a bunny hill. Basically I would plant, unweight, slightly pivot skis, then flex down onto the outside ski. Alternately, I would sometimes simply step my ski to the outside and flex down onto that ski to start the turn. (I know that sounds not elegant. Imagine it’s 1979, you’re on a stiff 203 GS ski, going hardly more than walking speed, maybe in not-great snow, and you need to turn right now.)

 

[LiquidFeet]

....plant, unweight, slightly pivot skis, then flex down onto the outside ski. Alternately, I would sometimes simply step my ski to the outside and flex down onto that ski to start the turn. ....

I think you know that these two movement patterns are old school techniques.

 

[jyl]

I think you know that these two movement patterns are old school techniques.

Yes. I think those techniques had a “raison d’etre” back then. I was informed they are not needed now. Although I think maybe in certain snow conditions

Yard Sales are still very much a part of the ski scene.

You just touched on one of my buttons. Everything old is new again. In 1970 there were 7 'pillars' that were preached by PSIA, they were: forward lean, angulation, weight transfer, natural position, counter rotation, unweighting, total motion. Some have different titles, and are not as prevalent, but they are all still there.
An example; the difference between counter and upper lower separation is what exactly?
A jet turn and toppling are different how?
Most everything old is new again.

No more yard sales for me, thank you. A couple falls onto my shoulder and I know I’m going to be doing rubber band exercises for my rotator cuff until the shoulder doesn’t twinge anymore. The young me wouldn’t even have noticed.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes. I think those techniques had a “raison d’etre” back then. I was informed they are not needed now. Although I think maybe in certain snow conditions

Correct. Instead of having to do the unweighting/pivoting or the stemming to get the skis to start going in the new direction, you can just tip them onto their edges. That bends them, and around they will go. You can do this on the bunny slope at .05 mph.

It's good that your instructor had you working on new movement patterns on low pitch terrain. It sounds like you're committed to taking more lessons with this instructor. That's the way to go.

There are different combinations of movements that accompany the tipping, which is why you can benefit from lessons. There are so many new things to learn now.

Manufacturers are making skis with different interior material combinations and different overall shapes. When tipped, different skis bend in different ways. The inbuilt flex pattern (why skis cost so much now), along with the general shape of the skis, determines how they interact with the snow surface. Some skis are made for hard snow and some for soft/deep snow.

Choosing skis to buy can get complicated, or not. People here can help with that, as can your instructor.

 

[jyl]

Bad Bob, on the “everything old is new again” front, is “toppling” actually related to Killy’s “jet turn”? I thought the jet part came in the latter part of the turn.

 

[Bad Bob]

Bad Bob, on the “everything old is new again” front, is “toppling” actually related to Killy’s “jet turn”? I thought the jet part came in the latter part of the turn.

The "jet" was letting your feet get ahead of your mass as you absorbed the energy from the ski or from a bump. If you wanted to accomplish more than 2 turns you projected your body (COM) down the fall line to catch up with your feet and stay balanced. Jet Stix were produced for skiers that missed that part of the lesson.

 

[jyl]

I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of watching Ye Olden Skiing videos to see what they did even before I started skiing

Beginning with my childhood hero

Jean-Claude Killy

 

[gabrik]

In my country, I hear many voices "show me your wedeln ski technique and I will tell you how good a skier you are" and they say "carving is only for empty slope and easy snow, wedeln technique is for all conditions". These people say too " Don't learn carving, until you know the sliding technique well".
I am contrarian "show me your carving..." becouse I don't respect this approach.

What do you think about in March 2024?

 

[Rod9301]

The "jet" was letting your feet get ahead of your mass as you absorbed the energy from the ski or from a bump. If you wanted to accomplish more than 2 turns you projected your body (COM) down the fall line to catch up with your feet and stay balanced. Jet Stix were produced for skiers that missed that part of the lesson.

A better way is to pull your feet back to recenter, instead of projecting the upper body down the slope.

 

[James]

I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of watching Ye Olden Skiing videos to see what they did even before I started skiing

Beginning with my childhood hero

Jean-Claude Killy

That Killy clip in the trees is from Sybervision skiing and was at Beaver Creek in ‘92 I think. The original has very nice piano music to it. Sybervision seems to be very diligent in not allowing youtube clips.

It’s worth getting the Sybervision disc or vhs on eBay or somewhere. You can probably buy a download from them too.
Jens Husted and Chris Ryman were the two people Killy skis with on trail. Still relevant today, there’s just not the up movement they had with straight skis.

 

[jyl]

A better way is to pull your feet back to recenter, instead of projecting the upper body down the slope.

The "jet" was letting your feet get ahead of your mass as you absorbed the energy from the ski or from a bump. If you wanted to accomplish more than 2 turns you projected your body (COM) down the fall line to catch up with your feet and stay balanced. Jet Stix were produced for skiers that missed that part of the lesson.

Watching video of racers, I think I see them usually ending the turn on their tails and coming forward in the transition. Is that related to ye olden "jet turn" and an example of old being new again, or is that something different? I have to admit all I know about that turn is very dim memories of the book "We Learned To Ski" circa mid-1970s, that I read back then but have not seen in many decades. I think I taught myself to ski from that book . . .

 

[Bad Bob]

Watching video of racers, I think I see them usually ending the turn on their tails and coming forward in the transition. Is that related to ye olden "jet turn" and an example of old being new again, or is that something different? I have to admit all I know about that turn is very dim memories of the book "We Learned To Ski" circa mid-1970s, that I read back then but have not seen in many decades. I think I taught myself to ski from that book . . .

The ultimate "Jet Turn" was probably the ones done by Wayne Wong. He would absorb a bump for all it was worth, Get his outside hand forward to create rotary force, or anticipation if you prefer. Plant his pole as he went over the crest, and released the torsion in his body to make the skis turn, The hand kept going forward to help direct his torso down the hill, so he could land over his skis and not behind.
With big bumps and soft skis it was a lot of fun.

 

[James]

Is that related to ye olden "jet turn"

The Jet turn never really existed. A persistent myth made by photography back then.

 

[pchewn]

The jet turn, aided by JetStix was a huge boon to orthopedic knee surgeons.

See here: https://www.skitalk.com/threads/all-things-jet-stix.11592/post-266027

 

[skipress]

The ultimate "Jet Turn" was probably the ones done by Wayne Wong. He would absorb a bump for all it was worth, Get his outside hand forward to create rotary force, or anticipation if you prefer. Plant his pole as he went over the crest, and released the torsion in his body to make the skis turn, The hand kept going forward to help direct his torso down the hill, so he could land over his skis and not behind.
With big bumps and soft skis it was a lot of fun.

View attachment 230477

The Jet turn never really existed. A persistent myth made by photography back then.

yep, it was working backwards from a cover of I think either Ski or Ski Francais showing Patrick Russell recovering and then some folks reverse engineered [incorrectly] what he was doing

The laws of physics haven't changed over the last 100 years. If you review video from the 1930s you can see in some cases stuff that looks like modern high performance skiing:

• Core takes shorter path than the feet
• Outside leg inclines and stretches
• Legs turn before and more than the torso
• Femur rotates in pelvis
• Steered outside ski supports the skier before it crosses the fall line
• Torso inclined as much as or more than the shins [a heuristic, in reality the torso is at an acute < to the skiing surface]
• Continuously linked, rhythmical arcs
• ....and so on

If we exclude commodification [ski techniques essentially designed to sell skiing in one country vs another] then what has changed is:

• Equipment
• Surfaces [grooming ets]
• Arguably fitness, nutrition and training
• Lifts [more runs, less work]
• Ski competition rules [and what most alpine skiers do flows, sometimes rather indirectly from what alpine competitors do]. Tho there can be a chicken and egg debate about this point. In some cases the rules change because of gear [GS skis].

As I say if you exclude making funny shapes to sell ski lessons in say France vs Austria, biomechanically sound ski 'technique' changes as a result of the above. To quote a statement one of the NZSIA guys made at Pamporovo Interski during their demo it was easier to change the manual than the laws of physicss