Salting Race Courses, and Impact

[Rudi Riet]

MOD NOTE: This thread was created from some posts made in the Women's World Cup thread...

Garmisch should just be removed altogether.

This is the future: so many of these legacy venues that are now compromised beyond return by a warming climate.

It's sad because the Garmisch-Partenkirchen piste is a great racing venue but if they can't reliably produce a safe and fair surface then it's game over. Only one of the two days for the men this past weekend met those criteria, to be honest.

 

[Swede]

It looked quite depressing this weekend for the men tbh. Took 'tons' of salt to make it happen.

 

[Teppaz]

The environmental impact of using all this salt cannot be overlooked, either. It's very real and FIS needs to address it, the same way it eventually addressed the toxic wax issue. (See this article for some background.) As much as I love watching ski racing, it's not worth wrecking the environment for it.

 

[Primoz]

FIS in whole year of racing throws maybe 1000kg (probably 1 tenth of this) of salt (half of it is not even salt but fertilizers, which is most likely even good thing for that grass), while road companies use several 1000 (probably millions) tons of salt to and chemicals to keep roads free of snow and ice, and we want to make problem out of salting one race course, which is degraded terrain anyway. Fluoro ban all over once again. We should really keep perspective on this what actually matters and what is complete bullshit but sounds so cool in nowadays "let's keep things green" world.
PS: I hope you don't ski as one grooming machine does more damage in single day to environment then 10 years of putting salt to race course. I mean we don't want to wreck environment. so no more grooming, no more driving to ski areas, no more lifts, and hell... no more ski production as all this damage our environment.

 

[dbostedo]

(See this article for some background.) As much as I love watching ski racing, it's not worth wrecking the environment for it.

FIS in whole year of racing throws maybe 1000kg (probably 1 tenth of this) of salt (half of it is not even salt but fertilizers, which is most likely even good thing for that grass), while road companies use several 1000 (probably millions) tons of salt to and chemicals to keep roads free of snow and ice

As I was reading that article/paper, I was waiting to see if they compared it to road salting, and was surprised that they didn't - because I had no idea how much was used relatively between the two.

That isn't to say that reducing salt usage everywhere isn't a good thing, so if there are alternatives for race courses, that would be good. But I did suspect that race course salting could be a minor thing compared to overall salt use. Thanks for the info.

 

[Primoz]

@dbostedo salting race course looks like this:

It's even on topic as it's one of my old photos from Garmisch (when grass fields below still looked white and not green as this year). For whole course they might use 10 buckets like this. Ok let's be really generous and say 20 buckets. And as I wrote, sometimes it's salt, sometimes they are fertilizers, depending on temperature, snow crystals, humidity etc.
I guess we all know how big trucks are when they clean roads and how many tons of salt go into single truck and how many kilometers they do with single load. So this race course preparation (it's really just for race not for normal skiing) does as much damage to environment then salting soup at lunch.

 

[Swede]

When I wrote ’tons’ it wasn’t litterally, it was figurative as in ’lots of salt’ comparatively to get the track raceable. So more like 100 than 1000 kgs. Sorry if that was unclear.

 

[dbostedo]

For whole course they might use 10 buckets like this.

Well FWIW... and maybe I should split this to its own thread... some places use a lot more. This article has a case of a race team asking for fifteen 20-lb bags for the day, just for their training.

https://www.powder.com/stories/keepers-salt

Still pretty small compared to the silos/domes for road salt storage. And that's in summer to try to completely combat slush - not just firm up an already decent race course - which probably accounts for the difference in amounts. The video shows a cat taking a couple of pallets worth of bags up the hill. But I guess every bit helps if it's easy to change and stop doing this. Not sure if it is yet though.

 

[Primoz]

They use chemicals for training only when there's really no other option. Race is one thing, and noone cares what's with snow after race, but for training, you need hill tomorrow, and day after tomorrow and after one or two weeks too. And when you start putting chemicals to snow, you literally kill it. You can do this for 2,3 days but then snow is dead and it all over... until new snow. So using salt on training is not all that common unless there's really no other way.

 

[altabrig]

@dbostedo salting race course looks like this:
View attachment 223157
It's even on topic as it's one of my old photos from Garmisch (when grass fields below still looked white and not green as this year). For whole course they might use 10 buckets like this. Ok let's be really generous and say 20 buckets. And as I wrote, sometimes it's salt, sometimes they are fertilizers, depending on temperature, snow crystals, humidity etc.
I guess we all know how big trucks are when they clean roads and how many tons of salt go into single truck and how many kilometers they do with single load. So this race course preparation (it's really just for race not for normal skiing) does as much damage to environment then salting soup at lunch.

Snow in the valley. All the salt in the world won't change the narrowing of winter. Sad to regularly see no snow at elevations in January that historically are snow covered.

Where I ski they sand the canyon to protect the river, trout - gamefish, and the watershed downstream where the water is dammed and allocated for domestic and agricultural use like most places. Some mornings I wish it was salt and not sand, especially when cars are in the river.

 

[Tricia]

While at Mammoth last year I was impressed with the size of the salt spreader that they were using to salt a larger portion of the hill to maintain snow into the summer months.

 

[Rudi Riet]

They use chemicals for training only when there's really no other option. Race is one thing, and noone cares what's with snow after race, but for training, you need hill tomorrow, and day after tomorrow and after one or two weeks too. And when you start putting chemicals to snow, you literally kill it. You can do this for 2,3 days but then snow is dead and it all over... until new snow. So using salt on training is not all that common unless there's really no other way.

In places where winter is warmer and shorter, overall, we use a lot of salt or urea (i.e. fertilizer, which is more common in the eastern USA) to harden the snowpack for both training and racing. My team goes through 50-60 bags per season on our tiny little hill. Without it the ruts are huge and the risk of breaking through the snow to bare ground is higher.

There is one mountain in my region that has motorized spreaders for their urea and go through multiple tons of it per season to keep their racing venue firm, wall-to-wall, for the season. This actually puts them on ATF watch lists as the amount of fertilizer they purchase is in the realm of "they could build a bomb" status.

And to wit: once the runs melt out that racing trail is much more green than its neighbors due to the sheer amount of urea used during the season.

At places with summer operations (e.g. Mammoth, Timberline Lodge) they use solar water softener salt to harden the snow as it tends to filter out before hitting culinary aquifers and streams. Fertilizer promotes algae growth that can ruin streams and rivers.

 

[Teppaz]

I think it’s perfectly possible to have an amicable discussion about this without being defensive and agitated.

Not everything lasts forever and maybe ski racing won’t considering the demands of training in addition to having good (and safe) race conditions. That is just a scenario, but it doesn’t seem far-fetched to me.

 

[4ster]

Salt=plastic straws.
If everyone would make an effort to consume & waste just a little less. We’d be all good.
I heard or read somewhere that both Mammoth and Mount Hood/Timberline have a limit on the amount of salt and chemicals they may use on the snow per season.

 

[JCF]

"If everyone would make an effort to consume & waste just a little less. We’d be all good."

I do practice and preach that, but unfortunately it will take a lot more than that. I remember at a DEP training course being told we needed to report even a tablespoon of oil spilled. And I think it wasn't a day later the Exon Valdez ran aground.

And salt ! It is horrifying how much "salt" (radium-226 and 228) gets sprayed on roads around here.

 

[crgildart]

I have a solution.. Winch Zamboni spreading sea water.. WIN WIM!

 

[Primoz]

@Rudi Riet I never saw it being done on such big scale over here, and I have seen a place or two, even in worse possible conditions. Yes they do it occasionally, but for training it's more exception then practice. Obviously it's different over there. But I was writting from my experience and from this what I have seen, but obviously I was wrong. Sorry for that.
But my point is, it's still minor thing. But as always (yes back to fluoro ban), everyone are dealing with little, totally unimportant things, while things that would matter way more, but also hurt more, go by unnoticed. As I wrote, few months ago, instead of crying about snow cats "destroying" glaciers (fact is actually different, and without skiing half of glaciers wouldn't exist anymore), those same people who were so against it, should cut short on their travel and 500+hp cars, but that would make their life much less pleasant so let's not bother with that.
And if we stick with bad FIS, instead of bugging with so bad fluoro, and now salt, they should take care a bit more about their program and venues. In next few days, whole tour will drive some 10.000km going from Garmisch to Chamonix (Wengen 3 weeks earlier is just across the mountain), then drive all over Europe to Bansko for weekend, then all the way across Europe to Kvitfjell, and fly once again to USA and back. If someone wants to be nice to environment, optimizing calendar to reduce stupid travels by half would make much more effect for environment then bugging about 2 bags of salt or fertilizer.

 

[Tony Storaro]

@dbostedo salting race course looks like this:
View attachment 223157
It's even on topic as it's one of my old photos from Garmisch (when grass fields below still looked white and not green as this year). For whole course they might use 10 buckets like this. Ok let's be really generous and say 20 buckets. And as I wrote, sometimes it's salt, sometimes they are fertilizers, depending on temperature, snow crystals, humidity etc.
I guess we all know how big trucks are when they clean roads and how many tons of salt go into single truck and how many kilometers they do with single load. So this race course preparation (it's really just for race not for normal skiing) does as much damage to environment then salting soup at lunch.

Why do they do that? I mean doesn’t it make snow melt faster?

 

[Tony Storaro]

@Rudi Riet I never saw it being done on such big scale over here, and I have seen a place or two, even in worse possible conditions. Yes they do it occasionally, but for training it's more exception then practice. Obviously it's different over there. But I was writting from my experience and from this what I have seen, but obviously I was wrong. Sorry for that.
But my point is, it's still minor thing. But as always (yes back to fluoro ban), everyone are dealing with little, totally unimportant things, while things that would matter way more, but also hurt more, go by unnoticed. As I wrote, few months ago, instead of crying about snow cats "destroying" glaciers (fact is actually different, and without skiing half of glaciers wouldn't exist anymore), those same people who were so against it, should cut short on their travel and 500+hp cars, but that would make their life much less pleasant so let's not bother with that.
And if we stick with bad FIS, instead of bugging with so bad fluoro, and now salt, they should take care a bit more about their program and venues. In next few days, whole tour will drive some 10.000km going from Garmisch to Chamonix (Wengen 3 weeks earlier is just across the mountain), then drive all over Europe to Bansko for weekend, then all the way across Europe to Kvitfjell, and fly once again to USA and back. If someone wants to be nice to environment, optimizing calendar to reduce stupid travels by half would make much more effect for environment then bugging about 2 bags of salt or fertilizer.

Hey! Don’t touch Bansko man! For who knows who reads here. Bansko-good. My only chance this season to see some live action and show that Odermatt dude what is the proper color of POC Dura helmet.

Seriously-we are having fantastic winter here and I hope snow will be good although on February 11-12 it will be quite warm per the forecast.

 

[pchewn]

On Mt Hood, Timberline Lodge ski area, the Palmer Snowfield is used all summer for ski race training. According to this article, they apply over one Million pounds of salt each year to keep the snow firm for training purposes. By contrast, the salt applied to roads in the US yearly is 20 million metric Tons per year. Oregon does not use a significant amount of salt on the roads, that's more a midwest and east coast thing.

So it's much more than a few buckets, and much much less than the road salt usage. But I do have to wonder what a million pounds of salt do to a single alpine water drainage.

Interestingly: Many states claim to be moving away from salt (NaCl) to magnesium chloride (MgCl) ..... which is also a salt. They only call it "salt" if it is sodium chloride. I think that is a marketing ploy. It is still a salt.

Here's the article about salt usage on the Palmer glacier (Mt Hood, Oregon -- Timberline Lodge):
http://www.mounthoodnationalpark.org/MHNPArticles/100525SaltingThePalmer.pdf