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Should I Stay Or Should I Go ?

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
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Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,687
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Wow, lots of good inputs! Thanks to all!
To answer , yes, I already presented myself and I already had "practice test(s)".
Four of them, to be precise.
Four no-pass (fail).
Let's say that the first attempt can be truly seen as a "practice test"attempted in exactly the spirit as @LiquidFeet describes.

The second ...in retrospect I did not ski well enough at all, not even my strong point(s), so it's only fair to say that the no pass was somehow deserved. But so did others who were allowed to pass, what the examiners saw in them and not in me, it's beyond my comprehension.
I know it might appear overconfident or arrogant, but number three and four...I truly think I deserved to score a pass. Specially number 4. This is not only a feeling...and again, as LF says in those 4 attempts, I've seen my fair share of meltdowns - mildly put - at the "no-pass" announcements. Me, at number 3 and 4, I've gone the opposite route. After all was said and done, stood up, went to the examiners and results announcer, looked straight them in the eye and...thanked them, shaking their hands. At the 4th time, two of them , those who went wide-eyed, said, "I remember you well from past exams.."

So, out of 4 at least two can be seen as true "practice test".
The two others, I felt, and still strongly feel today, that I had what it was needed in order to pass the exam.

Now, last season I decided not to present myself because of covid, I was down with it for one month in January, and even if the hit had not been (that) hard it had been physically taxing and it took forever to get back on skis and perform decently. So I decided to forgo any attempt and just ski what was left of the season...
But this year, I want to draw to a close the whole thing, either way. "When", not the "how", not anymore, represents the only variable.
The exams season will start in March, and there should be at least two session scheduled. Plenty of time to ski to perform, which is a better term than my own "ski with intention", different word but I meant exactly that, @LiquidFeet , to train myself to perform at the exam, which is also a taxing task. Never relax never ski down a run with having fun in mind...in the long run, if too many fails occur, that's what takes the sparkle out of the eyes...
Or, in the immortal words of Dexter Rutecki

Teej, You Awake ?
Yeah.
I Didn't Make The Cut,
Did I ?
You Got The Job,
Didn't You ?
My Name Looked A Little
Funny On The List, You Know ?
Come On, Dexter,
There's Not Enough
Room In Here For You
To Get Paranoid.
I Was The Sixth Guy And
They Were Only Gonna Take Five.
Dex, You Skied Great,
All Right ?
Why Don't You
Go To Sleep ?
I Really Made The Cut ?
Yes !
You Know, You Might
Wanna Think About
Gettin' A Different Hat.
What Are You,
The Fashion Police ?
I'm with @BS Slarver , I can't see why you would want to be a level whatever ski instructor in north America.
Be that as may be if you really do want to get that cert, then I have some advice, stemming from my experience at learning many subjects and passing many tests (and failing to meet the grade on some too).

Learning the subject is one thing, learning how to pass the test in the subject is a totally different thing. If you are correct, and you should have passed based on your ability and knowledge and the tests are legit and above-board (not saying they aren't BTW), then the problem is you do not know how to pass the test.

You must get feedback that specifically lets you know what the examiner would have needed to see in your skiing/teaching/whatever in order for him to have decided to give you one of the 20% of places that got a pass, but did not see it in you, despite seeing it in others.

Apparently, it's hard to judge someone's skiing abilities and control just from watching them ski. Once upon a time, I was booting along at about a mile a minute, just getting my SG's up to speed at Jay Peak, when I saw a patroller (I thought that's what he was) hollering at me from the bushes on the side of the run, just ahead. I figured someone was injured and his radio wasn't working and he wanted me to get help, so I slammed on the brakes and stopped right beside him. Turns out he stopped me for "skiing out of control". He had to concede that if I had been skiing out of control, I would not have been able to stop where I did in such a short distance (right beside him). However, he told me that when he saw me skiing he had no idea that I was in control, as it was hard to tell. I learned that you are not allowed to ski in a racing tuck at Jay Peak. Who knew? :huh:

It may well be that the examiner was looking for the wrong clue to prove that you knew something or could do something he was testing for, and you didn't show him that clue. Maybe you made a pure arc when he was looking for a smooth brushed turn. Maybe he wanted to see wedge christie when you did a stem christie. Could be any of million things. You need to figure out what it was he needed to see (or hear) to prove you knew or could do what you were being certified to know or be able to do. It may be that you didn't realize what you needed to know and didn't know. Doesn't matter? What matters is that if and only if you give the examiner what he wants, you will pass. Find out what that is!
 

cantunamunch

Meh
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Lukey's boat
Advise still stands; you need to find out what the people grading the tests are looking to see and show it to them.

He's already been to the test before.

I don't know the details of how SIS organise the race but that is a separate component and my contention has been that he should get his boots sorted and work on racing as a labour of love.

And that will pay dividends the next time this question arises.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
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Nov 17, 2015
Posts
22,194
Location
Lukey's boat
But does he know why he failed, or just that he failed?

We don't know.

But, since he's got two separate hoops to jump through, it might be time to focus on #2 and see if that helps him stay motivated - and bring new tools to hoop #1
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,301
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
@cantunamunch Yes, I know,but clearly, the examiner did not tell him what it was he saw or failed to see.

Much depends on exam format. With CSIA L3 in the ski assessment the result is only a series of scores, one for each assessed task - there's no qualitive feedback as the assessment of each candidate happens in rapid succession. (Can always ask afterwards but there's only so much the assessors can recall about each candidate's runs.) OTOH the L3 teach assessment takes about an hour per candidate and there's a written report from both assessors detailing sins and omissions.

A good time to get skiing feedback is in the workshops before taking the assessment. At the end of those workshops the course convener will provide one on one feedback and they've been watching your skiing for 2 or 3 days. (Although they don't give an actual score...)
 
Thread Starter
TS
Nobody

Nobody

Out of my mind, back in five.
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Nov 13, 2015
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Ponte di legno Tonale
Hello all. And Happy New Year to everyone!
My deepest apologies :
1)for not chiming in all this time, I am not of the kind to "throw the rock and then hide the hand"...but life has been getting in the way
2)for, unwillingly, misleading any of you in thinking I were American, or not being clear enough to let anyone uderstand that.
To clarify, I am not American (nor reside in the USA) - I am Italian and live in Italy.

So, a few words of explanations are on oredr, I think...
Due to the life vagaries I couldn't follow the Italian program to become a ski instructor; I applied for it in 1992, failed to qualify and wanted to try again the next year with better preparation. But then life got in the way, so to speak, and when I had a look at it again many years later, too much of everything was required.
See, in Italy, to become a ski instructor is not a multilevel journey. It is a binary thing. One is , or one isn't. And the program has to be carried out all in one season, and almost impossible task if one is an adult with family and all the things that come with a family (mortgage, kids going to school, living etc, I think you know what I mean) and a regular job (but not self employed). More years passed, and, well, as luck goes, I found and joined the Slovenian certification program, a thing which is allowed to happen under European Regulations and Legislations. Program which, at the beginning of my adventure, was modeled roughly like the American one, on three levels. The third being the "Full Cert". Today the levels have been reduced to two, with the second corresponding to the old third. This multi level path allowed me to time and pace the effort so not to have to take a whole season (weeks at a time) away from my regular work (what still allows me to take home the bread and butter) and from the family. And also to spread the expenses in such a way that it could become, ahem, somehow affordable.
Painting it with a (very) broad brush, per European Union regulations and agreements between the different European states Ski Instructors associations (with a couple of exceptions and caveats), a ski instructor with a licence of, say, country "A" cannot stabily teach in country "B" until becomes a "Full Cert" in country "A" and passes a Common tests, the so called "CTT" (formerly divided in two different tests known as "Eurosecurité" and "Eurotest") made of two parts corresponding to the two old ones above.
If anyone is interested and does not fear an headache by reading bureaucratic lingo :
After that, it's a matter of bureaucracy....

Now, I began this journey, years ago, with a "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" spirit; I wanted to get better, to improve, to understand how. But also, because in my everyday work I occasionally teach workshops taking great pleasure when seeing what I call the "light bulb of comprehension to go off in the student's eyes", I wanted to see that whilst teaching skiing too, as a side career. And also, why not, to taske a measure of my "worth", to prove to myself I could do it, to ski to such a level of proficiency as to attain the certification (in truth the best I managed to do, as often repeated here, is "to be sucking at a higher level" :) ); but with the knowledge that if I were to fail to attain full cert status, all would have been for naught.

Coming to the discussion at hand, again your input , both sides, and suggestions, point of view and support have been invaluable, believe me! And, surprise surprise, heeded both sides...
As already written, I did not go, preferring to spend time with the family, deeming it would have been wasted time and r€$sourc€$ to go in summarily prepared, what after two almost compeltely missed seasons (one to to the CoronaVirus lockdown, mountain resorts were forbidden to operate and travel was restricted, one..well I got CoronaVirus and was off for the best part of the (ski)season.
Instead, a very nice long week end in the mountains was had , kid went to ski school some, then skied with mom and dad some, then we had time together.
Then we came back home to resume or usual chores until Christmas (school and work) and returned to the mountains once again after Christmas until the Epiphany.
On the cert front, I skied some, trying to get back the familiar feelings.
Taking advantage of kid going to ski school, I also trained a bit in the gates (after two whole years off the gates nonetheless) to remove some "rust" off there to and thought I had sorted out the boot, as said above, and mentally preparing myself for having one "last ditch" clinic and exam at the end of the season.
Because, before the season began, we sat, as a family and decided that this would have been my last season of attempts at passing this exam.

Again, this thread has been cathartic to me...
So far great!
...But then...

...To Be Continued...
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,727
Location
New England
Hello all. And Happy New Year to everyone!
My deepest apologies :
1)for not chiming in all this time, I am not of the kind to "throw the rock and then hide the hand"...but life has been getting in the way
2)for, unwillingly, misleading any of you in thinking I were American, or not being clear enough to let anyone uderstand that.
To clarify, I am not American (nor reside in the USA) - I am Italian and live in Italy.

So, a few words of explanations are on oredr, I think...
Due to the life vagaries I couldn't follow the Italian program to become a ski instructor; I applied for it in 1992, failed to qualify and wanted to try again the next year with better preparation. But then life got in the way, so to speak, and when I had a look at it again many years later, too much of everything was required.
See, in Italy, to become a ski instructor is not a multilevel journey. It is a binary thing. One is , or one isn't. And the program has to be carried out all in one season, and almost impossible task if one is an adult with family and all the things that come with a family (mortgage, kids going to school, living etc, I think you know what I mean) and a regular job (but not self employed). More years passed, and, well, as luck goes, I found and joined the Slovenian certification program, a thing which is allowed to happen under European Regulations and Legislations. Program which, at the beginning of my adventure, was modeled roughly like the American one, on three levels. The third being the "Full Cert". Today the levels have been reduced to two, with the second corresponding to the old third. This multi level path allowed me to time and pace the effort so not to have to take a whole season (weeks at a time) away from my regular work (what still allows me to take home the bread and butter) and from the family. And also to spread the expenses in such a way that it could become, ahem, somehow affordable.
Painting it with a (very) broad brush, per European Union regulations and agreements between the different European states Ski Instructors associations (with a couple of exceptions and caveats), a ski instructor with a licence of, say, country "A" cannot stabily teach in country "B" until becomes a "Full Cert" in country "A" and passes a Common tests, the so called "CTT" (formerly divided in two different tests known as "Eurosecurité" and "Eurotest") made of two parts corresponding to the two old ones above.
If anyone is interested and does not fear an headache by reading bureaucratic lingo :
After that, it's a matter of bureaucracy....

Now, I began this journey, years ago, with a "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" spirit; I wanted to get better, to improve, to understand how. But also, because in my everyday work I occasionally teach workshops taking great pleasure when seeing what I call the "light bulb of comprehension to go off in the student's eyes", I wanted to see that whilst teaching skiing too, as a side career. And also, why not, to taske a measure of my "worth", to prove to myself I could do it, to ski to such a level of proficiency as to attain the certification (in truth the best I managed to do, as often repeated here, is "to be sucking at a higher level" :) ); but with the knowledge that if I were to fail to attain full cert status, all would have been for naught.

Coming to the discussion at hand, again your input , both sides, and suggestions, point of view and support have been invaluable, believe me! And, surprise surprise, heeded both sides...
As already written, I did not go, preferring to spend time with the family, deeming it would have been wasted time and r€$sourc€$ to go in summarily prepared, what after two almost compeltely missed seasons (one to to the CoronaVirus lockdown, mountain resorts were forbidden to operate and travel was restricted, one..well I got CoronaVirus and was off for the best part of the (ski)season.
Instead, a very nice long week end in the mountains was had , kid went to ski school some, then skied with mom and dad some, then we had time together.
Then we came back home to resume or usual chores until Christmas (school and work) and returned to the mountains once again after Christmas until the Epiphany.
On the cert front, I skied some, trying to get back the familiar feelings.
Taking advantage of kid going to ski school, I also trained a bit in the gates (after two whole years off the gates nonetheless) to remove some "rust" off there to and thought I had sorted out the boot, as said above, and mentally preparing myself for having one "last ditch" clinic and exam at the end of the season.
Because, before the season began, we sat, as a family and decided that this would have been my last season of attempts at passing this exam.

Again, this thread has been cathartic to me...
So far great!
...But then...

...To Be Continued...
@Nobody, I've just linked this post in the thread "Advice on whether to train to become a Ski Instructor" here:
 

Jerez

Skiing the powder
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Posts
3,048
Location
New Mexico
I too agree overall with @BS Slarver That finding the joy in free skiing will improve skills naturally, but then we are all motivated differently and find different things that make us happy and engaged. Some folks like to explore and ski trees and some folks get their thrills on injected ice slopes with gates. So, if @Nobody is determined to go after this and this makes him happy, then this:
you are not on the same page as the examiners. Get feedback from an examiner.

You must get feedback that specifically lets you know what the examiner would have needed to see in your skiing/teaching/whatever in order for him to have decided to give you one of the 20% of places that got a pass, but did not see it in you, despite seeing it in others.
You said two of the examiners remembered you from earlier attempts. That suggests that they may recall just what they saw or didn't see that caused the no-pass. Plus, your having gone up to thank them will also make you memorable. Can you find out who they were and ask directly what you need to do to pass?

Your English is impeccable.
Oh, and @LiquidFeet 's commentary was insightful (as usual) and useful no doubt in many arenas.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,392
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Truckee
Nobody, I'm glad you've found a pathway that will allow you to pursue your ambition. I don't have personal experience, but have seen many reports lamenting the difficulties that the European system throws up for those aspiring to be ski instructors, but lacking in youthful physical strength or in youthful ability to make a full time commitment. Life experience can give people valuable skills that will make them excellent instructors. That's experience that younger candidates lack, and it's a shame if older candidates get shut out.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Nobody

Nobody

Out of my mind, back in five.
Skier
Joined
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1,277
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Ponte di legno Tonale
...Continued...

I began the journey well knowing that I could have experienced setbacks along the way, and accepted the possibility of failing right at the beginning during L1. Had I failed there, I would have let the matter rest for good and be happy to have spent some time receiving firsthand high quality coaching. A thing that I had not had in a long time in the skiing world.
Instead, much to my amazement, all went well until I reached the final step, the full certification course and exams. Even then, I understood that one failure could happen and accounted for. But when the failures became 4, my resolve faltered, and I entered a vicious circle of continuously mulling over these failures. That attitude can still be seen when I started to write this thread. That was not positive in the least,and the two years of CoronaVirus did not help matters at all.
As I said, this thread has been cathartic in many ways. Talking about it, and readying your comments, has paved the way to my acceptance that the past was the past, and instead of looking for reasons why I failed, I took advantage of the lock-downs (which, de facto stopped me skiing for long periods nearly two whole years), since the easiest way to break that vicious circle and transform it into something I could build a positive outcome upon would be to start anew.
Forget about not being in synch with the examiners, which is all too true, it must have been so! Forget about the failures, just concentrate on the future.

Now, I said I did not go in December, right? I was all set to wait till nearly the end of the season for the customary clinic and exam to arrive. But, during the Christmas time, an announcement came that a clinic and an exam would have taken place in January!
This time , I heeded the advice to go, so to speak! Also, my reasoning was, take the clinic in January and then have a go at as many exam attempts as possible until the end of the season or until a score to pass was obtained. Whichever would happen first.
And so, on the same day of MS 82nd victory in KG, I found myself at the one week (remediation) clinic.
The clinician first question was what I thought my weakest point was. To which I quite truly admitted that after a nearly two years stop, everything was rusty, and all had to be reviewed. It was the least I could say, short of saying "lets start from scratch". But that's what we did indeed. A complete overhaul.
The clinician put me to work (amongst others, I was not alone, of course) and in his words, he made us sweat blood and tears for the whole week.
It has not been an easy week, and the outcome was not clear until the end. But this time, I accepted, I accepted the possibility of yet another failure, knowing that I had done all that I could, and the outcome results were depending on me and me alone, even the past failures were so. I simply had to accept it.
I though I had sorted out the boot issue, right? I was wrong, that too, was not a boot issue. It was me, and the clinician helped me understand that and work on it. It thus was my mind playing tricks on me and I had to consciously keep it under check.
Once I accepted that as well, the issue went away, as long as I kept remembering to do work to correct it.
As always, it is the Indian, and not the arrow. I had allowed me to forget that basic principle!
The day the exam came, knowing that I had done all that I could, I was determined to do my best, not that the other times I wasn't, but again, I forced myself not to look back into the (now remote) past and think only about the present. Live the moment.
And I passed!

Was it easy? Not at all, it has been a very hard clinic and exam.
Was it my doing? Yes, but much was also the clinician and the examiners doing. And knowing I had your support. So that this time I skied to the examiners' satisfaction and they said such in the aftermath. Did I suddenly became the new Reilly Mcglashan? The new Weems? Bob Barnes?
No, obviously, and far from it. I am still the same old me, for the good or the bad (a clip shot yesterday of me leading my son around some groomer, made me shiver in orror at how badly I was skiing). I know I will have to actively and consciously work on my skiing to keep it on a level equal to that of the exam day, forever.
Am I done now? Will I teach now?
No, again.
To be able to do that, one major hurdle, maybe almost impossible to overcome and that's what you @Chris V. are referring to, sits between me and that. Which is the CTT (only the GS race, the "Safety" part, I already passed) I mentioned above. I am not a racer, one for "injected ice slopes with gates"; I am more of the exploring free-skiing kind, whether on a slope or off-piste. But if I want to complete the journey, I will have to measure myself against the clock, and a pacesetter or three, on a GS racecourse.
That's my next goal. Will I succeed? Who knows. But I cannot not try.

Just for reference, and for a fun reading, this was the beginning of my journey (10/2016):
Tomorrow

Thank you all again, and thank you for your comment about my English, @Jerez...Been studying it since when I was 8 or 9 y.o. I'm not an EL1, obviously, but my mom strongly believed in the English language as the main communication vector between people of different cultures and nationalities and send me off to learn it as soon as possible (at that time the main foreign language taught at schools in Italy was French). Then, I use English at work on a daily basis...And last but not least, I started to roam the internet many years ago with the purpose to keep up my language skills, possibly in conjunction it with a subject that was of great interest for me...what else could have been, if not skiing?
 

slow-line-fast

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snow

LiquidFeet

instructor
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New England
.....The day the exam came, knowing that I had done all that I could, I was determined to do my best, not that the other times I wasn't, but again, I forced myself not to look back into the (now remote) past and think only about the present. Live the moment.
And I passed!
....
Congratulations! You did it! Time to celebrate.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,982
That’s awesome.
You should get a celebratory ski hat to go with your old one.
 

fatbob

Not responding
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Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,341
Well done.

Of course you may have just got through the easy bit given I understand the Eurotest for over 40 non racers is VERY difficult to pass, partly due to liklihood of injuries interupting training at that age.
 

Smear

Getting off the lift
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Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Posts
239
Congratulations!

Looking forward to further updates on your journey to passing the speed test. I think you will manage with some training, don't neglect the strength part. At least on this last hurdle it's pretty clear what the bar is and no more wondering what the examiners will look for. Now it's all about the clock :)
 
Thread Starter
TS
Nobody

Nobody

Out of my mind, back in five.
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Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
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Location
Ponte di legno Tonale
Thanks for the kind words and congratulations
Indeed the Eurotest might reveal itself, for me, an impassabile hurdle.
It is not impossible, but it will be very hard, if not unlikely, that an old goat (not an acronym, this time) like me will score a pass. I will try it nonetheless.
It has happened, sure, but 97% of those who have scored a pass have been former racers, to some extent, in their youth or until recently.
Also, while training and when attempting it, I will have to strike a balance between performance,risks taking, and my physical well being.
A broken -anything, at this stage and at my age, would put an end to all. So will need to find a way to take some risks and score good timing and avoid injuries...
People I know, even younger than me, have incurred in all sort of damages (blown ACL, blown knees, broken legs and shoulders), simply by being over-aggressive and taking too many risks...
And then, again, there is Eurotest racetrack and Eurotest racetrack, and pacesetters, and difficulty can vary accordingly. In a recent one , post-lockdown, as many as 3/4 of the candidates have passed. Granted, I cannot count only on pure luck, it needs to be helped (at least met half-way through, as the joke goes)...but hard work, grit and determination can only go so far.
 

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