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Ski School Monopolies

Should ski school monopolies be ended

  • Yes

    Votes: 58 96.7%
  • No

    Votes: 2 3.3%

  • Total voters
    60

justplanesteve

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Posts
299
Location
Elmira, NY
Per flying notes mentioned above, the typical cost of instruction just absolutely spoils the perspective on instruction in any other field.

I've been licensed for 30+ years but in the past dozen had not flown much more than my biennial check rides. So had become low confidence, which inspires less flying, etc.
This past spring i decided to get serious about it again. The instructor i found had retired from a 20 year military flying career, and is currently a American Airlines captain. I don't know how that would translate to, say ex-professional FIS racer with some podiums, who also constantly instructed at all levels as part of his professional duties, and was required to constantly undergo evaluation, testing and instruction himself? 9 hrs logged over about 6 weeks probably included double that spent in ground and prep instruction. It did not cost $200 total, and we almost came to blows when i refused re-imbursement for a sub and coke picked up at a deli on my way, by his request. This is fairly typical. My primary instructor in the 80's was an ex-marine & had "all the ratings" as well, though his personality did not lend to a career with the major carriers. He enjoyed traveling the country as a hired personal coach, to get people through their intrument ratings in 2 week sessions.

Per some other comments, most people can learn to safely take off, maneuver, and land a single engine airplane in 7 to 15 hrs of instruction. The balance of the 40 hrs minimum required for the VFR ticket goes into exploring the easier corners of emergency management, gradually tougher wind conditions, and mostly learning to use the airspace safely and efficiently.

That said, instructors in either field should not have to take vows of poverty. In the "old daze" part of pilot instructing was working to build hours for a career in the majors. The student at least provides the expensive equipment. I've noticed (experienced) today that younger instructors out of the flying academy mills tend to charge as much as $30/hr in your airplane. :)

Bringing it back to skiing, this program looks like a good start for me/add-on to senior season pass:
or for night skiing:
To get back into skiing, i probably learn more rapidly for time expended, when observing how other people learn or don't, in group settings. IOW, My system is only going to absorb so much per session, so group is an advantage over private at this juncture.


smt
 
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fatbob

Not responding
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Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,341
I’ve only been loosely following this thread but there was a time when I would’ve been very interested and probably had a lot to add & I have expressed many of those thoughts & ideas in past threads. In fact many of the ideas expressed in this thread are things that I have been involved in implementing or experimenting with in the past ie, free advanced lessons, quick tips, affordable entry-level programs etc.


I seem to recall a case a few years ago in Europe where a British instructor was facing jail time for teaching illegally in France.

1 What worked best? Or did nothing and that's maybe the core point?

2 Simon Butler. Though he was fully qualified and ran a longstanding tour operation with his own instructors. The illegality was more about some bitter protectionism and some administrative detail about Eurotest grandfather rights. He was also treated rather shamelessly by BASI.

Ironically it is Brexit and Covid that finally did for his business last month.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,253
Location
Sierra & Wasatch
1 What worked best? Or did nothing and that's maybe the core point?
They all worked great and created guest loyalty. The problem was with SAM in the corporate age and their shortsightedness. All they could see was today’s yield & refused to invest in the future.
Some of the programs survived, although morphed into different animals like Snowbasins Learn & Earn program.
One that I was never a fan of & less successful was station teaching. The issue with that was the difficulty in forming a learning partnership between the instructor and guest.
 
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crgildart

Gravity Slave
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16,498
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The Bull City
They all worked great and created guest loyalty. The problem was with SAM in the corporate age and their shortsightedness. All they could see was today’s yield & refused to invest in the future.
In all fairness, with the amount of churn in corporate America, they've got to focus on next quarter's biggest yields instead of next decade's viability. That will be the problem of the executives on the board then and it won't likely be the same people. That's also the problem with large firms everywhere with anything else at that requires long term commitments. Ask the folks at 7 Springs
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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In all fairness, with the amount of churn in corporate America, they've got to focus on next quarter's biggest yields instead of next decade's viability. That will be the problem of the executives on the board then and it won't likely be the same people. That's also the problem with large firms everywhere with anything else at that requires long term commitments. Ask the folks at 7 Springs
Oh I get that, doesn’t make it right or even smart. Along with that our egos want us all to leave our own mark so we often change things for changes sake.

Tell us about 7 Springs?
 

crosscountry

Sock Puppet
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Pass Pulled
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Jun 6, 2021
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1,751
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all over the place
They left late. It was night and hazy when they got to MA. He likely got disoriented over water and went into a death spiral. Luggage washed ashore near his mothers house ogon the Vineyard.
He might not have "got disoriented" had he finished his instrument cert...
 

David

"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
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Oct 14, 2017
Posts
1,401
Location
Holland, MI
I would love to get some professional instruction and feedback. But because I've never been able to afford a lesson at a resort I rely on tips from better skiers, pictures of me skiing (I've never had a good one taken), watching good skiers and what I read.

I would have no issue paying a private instructor. As long as we both purchased tickets then there's no difference than if I was skiing with a friend giving me tips.
 

Blue Streak

I like snow.
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Posts
3,266
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Edwards, Colorado
They left late. It was night and hazy when they got to MA. He likely got disoriented over water and went into a death spiral. Luggage washed ashore near his mothers house on the Vineyard.
But wasn’t he going to appear in Dealey Plaza a couple of weeks ago?
 

jclee

Booting up
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Dec 22, 2017
Posts
37
skilessons.JPG
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister
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Just a quick moderator note that SkiTalk is not a place to solicit instruction that would violate resort policies. Discussions of that nature will be removed. (I am not sure of Copper's rules on this, but that's something to check into @Dugcheesi)
 

crgildart

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Just a quick moderator note that SkiTalk is not a place to solicit instruction that would violate resort policies. Discussions of that nature will be removed. (I am not sure of Copper's rules on this, but that's something to check into @Dugcheesi)
You know how to know who is a ski instructor at a party or grocery store or random discussion?


They'll tell you

<rimshot/>
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
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Just a quick moderator note that SkiTalk is not a place to solicit instruction that would violate resort policies. Discussions of that nature will be removed. (I am not sure of Copper's rules on this, but that's something to check into @Dugcheesi)
I would like to emphasize this as a site owner. We do not endorse solicitation of outside instruction that violates resort policies.

Posts doing so have been deleted.
 

Dugcheesi

Heading to Copper to close out 2021
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3
Location
Overland Park, KS
You know how to know who is a ski instructor at a party or grocery store or random discussion?


They'll tell you

<rimshot/>
You know how to know who is a ski instructor at a party or grocery store or random discussion?


They'll tell you

<rimshot/>
All,

My apologies. I was unaware outside instructors weren't permitted at resorts. I assumed based on postings on Craigslist and Facebook it was not restricted. I had reached out to those companies/individuals but none were available over the holiday and location I needed. My presumption was it was just a matter of finding an instructor rather than a policy violation.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
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16,498
Location
The Bull City
All,

My apologies. I was unaware outside instructors weren't permitted at resorts. I assumed based on postings on Craigslist and Facebook it was not restricted. I had reached out to those companies/individuals but none were available over the holiday and location I needed. My presumption was it was just a matter of finding an instructor rather than a policy violation.
Most of the instructors here I know (probably all of them) would be happy to give you the contact information of their respective employers who schedule things.. Some may be available for private lessons by request via those proper front door channels too..
 

Jerez

Skiing the powder
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3,048
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New Mexico
There is this thread though for instruction in Colorado, specifically Vail resorts i believe.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
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Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
22,194
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Lukey's boat
I don’t really see this as a failure. You teach enough lessons to get that many of these people are never coming back no matter what. It would be like if I took a trip to the Caribbean and went scuba diving once. Is it the instructors fault if I never go back.

hetes one place where instructors do have some impact though. At least at Vail Resorts, overall satisfaction with the resort is way higher as measured by guest surveys when the guest engages with an instructor.

I am not prepared to admit that that is a direct impact.

You first have to eliminate the possibility that selecting guests with willingness to engage with an instructor also selects for people who are better disposed to the resort.

Similarly, in the upthread 8% and 9% controversy - it can very easily be that the 9% corresponds to justified self confidence in one's athleticism. Willingness to get instruction on the first day (corresponding to the 8%) can easily be construed to select for those who lack atheticism and self confidence, possibly justifiably.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
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Joined
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Lukey's boat
Or chose a single brand to sell at that market and if you didn't like Charmin for example, too F'ing bad, which in theory they could do. But who would shop there?

The answer to this question is - Americans. This is already the case in the beer aisle. The market doesn't choose what to stock in that aisle, it just contracts the shelf space out to the distributor. The distributor selects product and the on-shelf representation percentage from their Big Beer list.

Who would shop there? The beer and wine aisle model tells us - all the suckers.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
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Joined
Nov 17, 2015
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Lukey's boat
This idea assumes there are instructors who are available at the last minute to teach those discounted lessons. Many ski schools in the US are understaffed.

^This. Snowtime resorts, before they went Peaks, had a Mountain Passport with free group lessons. Except guess what? The guests would show up at the group time and get sorted - and the higher groups would run out of instructors. "Sorry, we only have two instructors tonight". Same thing tomorrow. Or the day after. Want instructors? Show up on Saturday peak, then hope you get enough line cutting.
 

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