In the past I've had the ski tune up shop do a general wax, or race wax for me, without paying much attention to what they're using. Then I'd put a liquid flouro overlay on it right before skiing. Now I'm going to experiment with the new stuff on the market. I ordered Dominator Elite NS2P paste wax to try out and see how it compares to my old routine since C8 flouro is no longer available. Do I really need to apply a base prep before using Elite NS2P? Or is the ski tune shop Future Wax with their universal wax, which I had just recently, an adequate base prep for this paste? I'm looking into a new routine of having the ski shop do the machine/hand or Future wax portion, and then I do the paste on my own just before hitting the slopes. Not sure if I should take the skis back to the shop first for some kind of base prep.
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Special base prep wax type actually needed before paste waxes?
- Thread starter dcoral
- Start date
From Dominator's website:
Comparing paste waxes and hot waxes:
- At least three times as much wax is absorbed by the base by ironing as compared to paste application.
- Paste waxes are less durable than hot waxes. This can be somewhat mitigated by using a heat producing application method like a roto-cork to polish in the paste wax as it is drying.
- Repeated use of paste waxes without hot waxing between applications may lead to dry and dirty bases. After repeated applications of paste, a base prep wax must be used to clean and condition the base.
- Paste waxes can be applied on site when the snow conditions are known; with hot waxes there is usually guessing involved as it is generally done off-site, many hours before the base touches the snow. Depending on the solvent system, use of paste waxes requires 15-60 minutes between application and brushing; depending on the hot wax used, the waiting time between ironing and scraping may be a few hours. This is very important when time is limited.
When Dominator refers to cleaning the base, they are advocating for using the base prep wax to hot scrape to clean the base, as hot scraping uses a lot of wax, so more money for Dominator (don't use Renew-G, as you can't determine when the base is clean from hot scraping)
I wonder if I use paste wax, let's say 5 times before taking it to the ski shop for a base wax, if that is ok.
Also, if a regular base wax would take care of the conditioning as a substrate for paste "good enough" - or if it really should be specific base prep wax such as Renew or similar.
Any of the Dominator base prep. wax can be used including the FFC P1 paste.
It is best to apply the paste waxes at room temp. and cure for at least 30 minutes prior to buff and brush.
The paste can take forever to dry in cold weather.
Stay away from any fluoro unless the snow is very wet. In dryer snow, it won't help at all, and may slow the glide.
Thanks Jacques, does this mean the paste wax will work decent enough, even without a special base prep done first?
I can establish a routine of just having a regular wax job at the ski shop, followed by applying paste right before the ski day?
Do you prefer a nylon brush or horse hair brush for this?
Not commenting on modern paste/liquid waxes which I do not know about, but pre-fluoro ban it was typical at high levels of nordic skiing to use fluorinated overlays and fluorinated waxes in almost all conditions - even cold and fairly dry weather. Not all fluoros could perform well in those conditions - and some were terrible - but some could and would be very fast. This is in part because fluoros/fluorination help repel dirt, which is a major contributor to slow skis over distance.
At lower levels of the sport, Swix LF4 was notoriously fast as a pretty economical wax for cold conditions in places like the US Midwest. Often with a "cold fluoro" overlay for racing if budget allowed it. And LF6 or LF7 as excellent all-conditions fast training waxes.
That might not be important in alpine skiing, but it's not true that all fluoros require wet conditions to perform well. Of course, this may well be moot today with regards to fluoro bans in competition and the rise of pastes/liquids as primary waxes.
At lower levels of the sport, Swix LF4 was notoriously fast as a pretty economical wax for cold conditions in places like the US Midwest. Often with a "cold fluoro" overlay for racing if budget allowed it. And LF6 or LF7 as excellent all-conditions fast training waxes.
That might not be important in alpine skiing, but it's not true that all fluoros require wet conditions to perform well. Of course, this may well be moot today with regards to fluoro bans in competition and the rise of pastes/liquids as primary waxes.
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Sure you can. It's best to use after the base has been prepared with a prep. wax, but it will still works fine.
I use steel, and or brass before I apply the paste. Then I use brass after the cure. The paste waxes need to be brushed well.
With a well prepared base I have run paste only for over 20 days, and the bases still showed no sign of drying or burning.
I am sold on the Dominator paste waxes!
I go over application right here. The video will start at the point.
Great info! In the meantime I also exchanged emails with the founder and technical director of Dominator wax, Thanos. He took the time to send me lots of tips. Based on his suggestions for my ski areas, I'm also going to try FFC 2B when I take it to the shop for hot wax, Legacy F1P paste to apply right before skiing, and Butter for wet snow spring days. Seems like a great company with great wax products based on what I hear, and I can't wait to try it out.
Does the ski shop actually do a base prep, or just a hot glide wax?
It depends on which one I choose when I visit the shop. To clarify my original question, I just wasn't sure if paste waxes should have a certain type of Dominator wax product on the base first, or if any base prep is fine. I am not familiar with these newer paste waxes.
Nice shop.
Not sure what you mean? Here in the US they let the customer choose if they want a full tune up or just a wax.
If they offer a proper base prep and not just wax on, wax off, that's nice.
Sorry, I re-read my original post and I realize now that it is confusing because I am not using the right terminology. All the shops that I know of can do a base prep but I wasn’t sure if Dominator paste wax works better when applied over a certain type of prep hot wax. Based on my recent discussions with the company, it sounds like it is fine either way.
I'm not sure about the FFC P1 paste, but the Dominator base prep. waxes contain some hard wax in the prep. waxes.
So the soft waxes being very small molecules go deep as they can, and the hard wax being large molecules remain at the surface by nature.
If you have an iron, the bar waxes are best for base prep. They don't require a very hot iron, so they are quite safe to apply. When prepping, it's best to heat and cool the wax at least three times, fully cooling each time.
Sounds a bit like the ole Maplus World Cup Reserved Soft-Med Base (40% soft, 60% med blend). Which basically halved base prep cycles versus doing an initial soft base prep cycle and then use the race base medium. You can simulate this by ironing on a blend of soft base & harder wax at a similar ratio. Since they've come out with the Xsoft saturation base prep wax which is even softer. I think of it as adding a lotion to your bases that soaks in before adding a harder protective wax. It is recommended for hot boxing or for *'the pseudo hot iron/hot boxing' method.
FTR, Maplus used to also supply a green base prep which wax like waxing epoxy into your base but provided bomber protection and lasted forever. Using a green wax is an option for added base protection & prep.
*Pseudo hot iron/hot boxing: For new skis (which I just went through) and for freshly ground or repaired skis:
The other day for new skis, I added a blue WTOD after Xsoft & RBM cycles and the skis were fairly fast and still show very good coverage after 23 miles and 21K vert on fresh & softer snow. I could ski another day probably, but ideally, repeating waxings after initial outings, especially after abrasive snows, will help to 'keep seasoning' the bases and increase glide more and more. With durable waxes, you can start to minimize the number of times you really 'need' to perform to possibly upwards of once ever 4-6 outings.
For those who get their bases ground, can lose this build up. My recommendation is to not regrind the base if have them running well....even if they look like the've been in battle. Skis are tools, not jewels.
FTR, Maplus used to also supply a green base prep which wax like waxing epoxy into your base but provided bomber protection and lasted forever. Using a green wax is an option for added base protection & prep.
*Pseudo hot iron/hot boxing: For new skis (which I just went through) and for freshly ground or repaired skis:
- Clean the bases.
- Liberally apply Maplus Xsoft base, Maplus Soft red base, yellow or other soft wax you or already have in your kit. (Alternatively blend soft & hard to end base prep steps at 8.)
- Iron in a few or more passes to work in wax and heat up skis or snowboard.
- Perform a Light Hot Scrape to remove excess wax and save a little scraping later.
- Iron in a few or more passes.
- Let cool for 15-20 minutes
- Iron a few or more passes & let cool.
- Repeat or scrape & brush thoroughly.
- Hot Touch on a harder base something like Maplus Race Base Medium, other durable base prep (ideally) or a purple/blue glide wax.
- Repeat steps 2-8.
- Apply your WOTD or just ski on the wax used in step 9.
For those who get their bases ground, can lose this build up. My recommendation is to not regrind the base if have them running well....even if they look like the've been in battle. Skis are tools, not jewels.
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It would only take a few minutes to brush those bases before applying expensive paste.
That orange creamsicle XSoft is weird and kinda awesome, it almost justifies having a prep wax quiver.
I like it: 'creamsicle'. Yeah, talk about liquefied wax that takes a while to solidify. Especially after reheating a couple/few times. It definitely seems like it gets to get into all the nooks and crannies of the sintered bases. A little more so than the red. Then harder prep waxes for base protection and WOTD foundation.
