Stockli Tune Specs/what's wrong with my tune? (Lindsey--can you weigh in?)

[KingGrump]

No one I know has a stone grinder. The only person I know who flattens skis by hand, kind of, is Jacques. But, I don’t know what that means when you need to takedown the base edges. The SkiVisions flattener will take off metal with it’s HighSpeedSteel blade. But doing that on the whole ski is questionable, and that tool is not easy to use in that mode.

There are two different SkiVision base flattener tools. The one with the HHS cutting bar is mainly for ptex removal. A ruby stone can be utilized in that unit also for adding structure to the ptex. The second unit utilizes a very coarse file for cutting. It is designed for edge removal.

I have both. Don't use them much. Way easier to send the skis out and get then blanked and structured.

Base flattener with HSS cutting bar and ruby stone.

File base flattener.

 

[Noodler]

Well, there is that.
The percentage of shops who have staff knowledgeable enough to advise the new ski buyer that the ski may need a tune out of the box is pretty small.
And really, when you get a new car, do you expect to take it to someone to get it road worthy?

Not sure about "road worthy", but when you buy a new car most dealerships will prep it before they turn it over to you. I'm not sure of exactly everything they do, but I think it probably can include things like checking the tire pressure, fluid levels, etc. So there's that...

 

[James]

The HSS cutter will cut edges if there’s no hardened burrs. I was amazed. I practiced on a snowblade first. I did it years ago, can’t remember why. I think I was attempting lowering the base bevel. Back then I had the 1st gen Beast base bevel guides which were terrible. Those plastic file sleeves were better.
I remember it being a lot of work, and the chances of horrific damage were quite high. I can’t remember if I did the whole job or abandoned it.
I did finish the snowblades. Then in waxing them the ptex base sort of separated from the ski in a spot. That got ignored, it was a kids snow blade. They never noticed.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Not sure about "road worthy", but when you buy a new car most dealerships will prep it before they turn it over to you.

OK, along these lines, a question to the folks experienced in tuning and waxing here: I was talking the other day with an ex-racer/current masters racer who told me that I should never ski brand new skis out of the wrapper before prepping them before that.
By prepping, he meant first checking the edges, make sure the angles are right and then he explained the new ski must undergo a process of waxing which includes up to 30 times (for race ski) waxing one after another so that the base is saturated with wax...or something.
I forgot the finer details (of course) but was wondering how true is that. Any opinions?

If that is true, how many times would be OK for non-racing ski?

 

[Noodler]

OK, along these lines, a question to the folks experienced in tuning and waxing here: I was talking the other day with an ex-racer/current masters racer who told me that I should never ski brand new skis out of the wrapper before prepping them before that.
By prepping, he meant first checking the edges, make sure the angles are right and then he explained the new ski must undergo a process of waxing which includes up to 30 times (for race ski) waxing one after another so that the base is saturated with wax...or something.
I forgot the finer details (of course) but was wondering how true is that. Any opinions?

If that is true, how many times would be OK for non-racing ski?

Personally, I haven't skied a ski right out of the wrapper in 20 years. Everything gets prepped and that prep has increased over the years in the amount of work I do before the ski hits snow. I skyver the sidewalls, shape the topsheets, fix the edge geometry (which is almost always screwed up), and of course wax them. Every ski gets at least a base prep hot wax job (soft wax) once, then a universal hot wax layer. Then the day of skiing them they get the wax of the day for the temp/conditions. So for me, the answer is 3 wax jobs before they hit snow. I honestly believe that a well prepped ski not only performs better, but it lasts longer over time (while performing at a higher level). At the end of the day, totally dependent on skier goals and what they hope to get out of their equipment.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

OK, along these lines, a question to the folks experienced in tuning and waxing here: I was talking the other day with an ex-racer/current masters racer who told me that I should never ski brand new skis out of the wrapper before prepping them before that.
By prepping, he meant first checking the edges, make sure the angles are right and then he explained the new ski must undergo a process of waxing which includes up to 30 times (for race ski) waxing one after another so that the base is saturated with wax...or something.
I forgot the finer details (of course) but was wondering how true is that. Any opinions?

If that is true, how many times would be OK for non-racing ski?

Must? LOL, but it varies by brand for sure. Race Stock skis I'd probably always do that, but maybe not. The Fischer product manager insisted that I am wasting money doing a grind on his brand new race skis. Anyway, I ski all of mine after just waxing them once with Holmenkol Beta Red and I've never had any that felt bad. I've had some where I thought a tune could improve X and then gone out and gotten that done.

 

[Scruffy]

OK, along these lines, a question to the folks experienced in tuning and waxing here: I was talking the other day with an ex-racer/current masters racer who told me that I should never ski brand new skis out of the wrapper before prepping them before that.
By prepping, he meant first checking the edges, make sure the angles are right and then he explained the new ski must undergo a process of waxing which includes up to 30 times (for race ski) waxing one after another so that the base is saturated with wax...or something.
I forgot the finer details (of course) but was wondering how true is that. Any opinions?

If that is true, how many times would be OK for non-racing ski?

I do pretty much what @Noodler does, except I'm a little less type-A about it then I use to be, especially for non-race skis.
1) I'll always shape the sidewalls first, so they're not affecting any edge work for the current tune session and the future tune sessions.
2) I'll check the flatness of base and base edge angle. I've been known to self flatten a brand new pair of skis in the past, but less so these days. If it's unskiablly off I'll get a grind. If it's not perfect, but I determine it'll work, I'll just ski it and see. Base edges might need a tweak, or not-I usually hope for not, but there's usually something near tip and tail that needs attention. I try to do as little as possible on the base edge.

- For a race ski I'll get the ski blanked to flat so I can put a .5 edge angle on it myself.

3) Side edges always need a tweak and a polish. And of course, address any hanging burr.

4) Waxing- 30 times seems way excessive to me unless you're prepping a WC ski. And then they're usually using a hot box so they can eliminate some of that repetitiveness. For me, if it's a race ski, I'll wax in some base conditioner, then some hard wax, then wax for conditions of the day. If it's a play ski, these days I'll usually just use universal temp wax, unless it's going to be really warm, then I'll wax for temp.

 

[GregK]

My new ski prep is very similar to those above and starts with first checking for the base being flat and then the base bevel levels. With the Stockli(and now K2) specifying base bevels over 1 degree, I check to see if they are indeed over your desired levels as there are always variances and may not actually need a grind if the bases themselves are flat.

If the ski is not flat or the base bevels are higher than I prefer the skis go in for a stone grind with my desired results specified to the tech. Let them know about any base high/edge high/base bevel concerns I have in order for them to get the correct amount of passes to solve the issue.
Usually get a universal, non linear/broken structure and never have issues. Issues with grinds mentioned earlier in this thread are usually caused by a too deep or course Spring structure used in cold weather or a linear(straight, even depth lines tip to tail) which cause a ski to want to go straight and are hard to turn.

Btw-this talking about “new car prep” is very valid as brand new cars(even $200k plus ones) get a whopping 1.5hr or so prep time to wash, vac, clean, fill fluids, check tires, install license plates etc. Being a car detailer for over 30 years, I take 8 plus hours on a new vehicle to clean, polish and protect that new vehicle up to my standards. Most people think their cars are “pretty great” from the dealership and my customers call me the second after ordering their car as it “always looks mediocre before you do it!” Lol

Same thing with new car alignments which you’d think would be perfect from new. I worked for a few high end deal car repair shops specializing in luxury and performance cars and they have very elaborate alignment systems to tweak the most out of street and race cars. Every car model has a factory specified range that’s acceptable for camber, caster and toe for them. When on these alignment machines, there’s usually the specs for each wheel written green “within range” light that goes on and red “out of acceptable range”. I have seen HUNDREDS of cars(even brand new ones including all of my own) on these machines and have yet to see a car be all in green from the start. Every single has at least one wheel out of spec. Then you have many car owners like we are with ski bevels on here, who actually spec EXACT camber/toe/caster values(not a range) on their car alignment. I do this on all my cars from new and all are hugely improved both in handling and reducing uneven tire wear.

So both car and skis are “usually acceptable” from the factory with the odd obviously flawed one but it’s incredibly rare to have either NOT be improved to even higher levels from new in the hands of an expert.

 

[James]

OK, along these lines, a question to the folks experienced in tuning and waxing here: I was talking the other day with an ex-racer/current masters racer who told me that I should never ski brand new skis out of the wrapper before prepping them before that.
By prepping, he meant first checking the edges, make sure the angles are right and then he explained the new ski must undergo a process of waxing which includes up to 30 times (for race ski) waxing one after another so that the base is saturated with wax...or something.
I forgot the finer details (of course) but was wondering how true is that. Any opinions?

If that is true, how many times would be OK for non-racing ski?

Base prep wax plus another coat.
A race shop in VT used to sell ground/edge prepped skis new. This was totally worth it.

Factory non race skis are generally coming out much better than they were 5-10 yrs ago. But, a lot of horrible skis show up on the snow at SIA. Some of those are rushed off the production line just in time if one is looking for an excuse.

I've been known to self flatten a brand new pair of skis in the past, but less so these days.

How were you flattening?

The Fischer product manager insisted that I am wasting money doing a grind on his brand new race skis.

Should ask him how he’s sure they’re not wasting money by cutting a whole in the tip of their race ski.
Then there’s their new roof tip. That’s just a total waste.

 

[Scruffy]

How were you flattening?

SkiVissions flattening and structuring tools and a lot of elbow grease.

 

[James]

Issues with grinds mentioned earlier in this thread are usually caused by a too deep or course Spring structure used in cold weather or a linear(straight, even depth lines tip to tail) which cause a ski to want to go straight and are hard to turn.

Great post, but disagree with this part. It’s def not the structure. They just don’t do those types of deep structures. Prob for the reasons you state. Ido have one ski that makes a zipper noise from structure when moving it sideways in certain snows. Skis fine.

SkiVissions flattening and structuring tools and a lot of elbow grease.

So including cutting the edges down with the steel bar?

 

[Scruffy]

So including cutting the edges down with the steel bar?

Yup, if needed. The steel bar cuts the edges way easier than it cuts the ptex BTW.

 

[GregK]

@James This was the comment I was referring to-

I will add that a few years ago I had a pair of skis ground and both myself and a friend could barely ski them down a green slope. Something was weird. It turned out it wasn't the edges at all, but something really messed up with the structure. The skis couldn't track or turn in any predicable way.

I've never heard anyone else talk about this, but I think a bad grind can cause issues with the base.

A ski that is tough to turn and wants to track straight is usually on a course linear structure or handed to the customer in the wavy “Pre grind” stage that hasn’t been properly finished yet. I’ve had skis done like that before I knew what to look for and it was very tough to ski. Like an edge high ski. Had to get it properly finished flat and new universal structure and it was good.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Awesome! Thank you guys, learned a lot.

 

[GregK]

With all this talk of automated machine tuning, here’s a video I remember seeing a few years ago when I wanted to see what the $350k machine places like my local Corbetts and many factories now have for tuning skis.

The video shows a GoPro footage of a typical “average condition” ski getting a “average conditions settings” machine edge tune and flattening and structuring stone grind job in under a minute. I had skis that were higher bevel than I liked and edge high and it would have taken multiple rounds on these settings to get them flat.

Then they show a pair of race skis that are just in to stone grind the bases flat and obviously reset the base bevels back to maybe even 0. More passes with the wheel going faster with more pressure on the stone to reset and lighter pressure at slower speeds to add structure in the end.


So a knowledgeable tech who can asses the skis conditions and customer goals are still needed along with what settings need to be programmed into those machines for those desired results.

 

[Steve]

@James This was the comment I was referring to-


A ski that is tough to turn and wants to track straight is usually on a course linear structure or handed to the customer in the wavy “Pre grind” stage that hasn’t been properly finished yet. I’ve had skis done like that before I knew what to look for and it was very tough to ski. Like an edge high ski. Had to get it properly finished flat and new universal structure and it was good.

Thanks for the info Greg, that is just how they felt, we assumed it was edges, but it wasn't.

@hrstrat57 you might find this interesting as they were your skis.

 

[LindseyB]

Yes, as said before there is more to "grabby" than just angles. Snow type and base finish also play a big factor.

 

[LindseyB]

I ski and demo all my skis out of the wrapper. I have yet to have an issue with them in the past 5 years. During a demo season I use an Evo to touch up the side edges if they get rock burrs beyond what a diamond polish can resolve.

I've never had an issue finding a hand beveling tool that I can't set to 1.1,1.2,1.3,1.4 etc. If the rock burr is nasty I reach for this guy pictured.

Overall, I don't have to do much tuning work. I detune the tips on the Freeride skis after point of contact for smoother smearing in the steeps. That's about it. I spoke with Scot Schmidt on Monday and he does the same thing. After point of contact round them off like a spoon.

I would advise finding the right (person) tuner, not just a good tune shop only. There are good tune shops with bad tuners. There are also a few bad shops with good tuners because there is nowhere else to work in the area. Find the person you trust and become a good client.

It's also worth investing in a few files, guides, and sharpies to learn how to check base bevel. The peace of mind alone is worth it.

Most machine tuners can be adjusted to the Stockli angles. Some take a few minutes, others just the push of a couple buttons. If they want to do a 2 over 1 and you'd like a 1.4 base for a free ride ski then just have the base edge finished by a competent hand. This can sometimes save both parties a hassle.

 

[Steve]

@LindseyB is the 1.4 factory base bevel just on the free ride skis? What do the Laser series come at?

I assume the Edge 88 would come 1.4, right?

 

[LindseyB]

This might help.