Uh oh. Fast Tracks at Powdr resorts is coming

[SBrown]

My husband literally said the same thing about this lift when we were talking about this topic this morning.

We haven't been there since 2013, so I didn't realize they updated that lift. I remember standing in line mildly terrified and preparing myself for some humiliation because SO many snowboarders were falling off (I was on a snowboard). Then I got on and was like...meh...I've been on worse surface lifts.

ETA: Just noticed @coskigirl's comment...yikes...they updated to a T-bar! Do they make snowboarders ride double?

Well, they also reduced that grade at the beginning, it wasn't just the fact that it was a poma. It used to be that you got lifted off the ground upon takeoff. Literally, takeoff.

 

[SBrown]

I'm kind of surprised that Storm King has been added. It will be interesting to see how that goes.

It's definitely been bottle-necky there for a while. But yeah, this is different from what it was. Still, the whole thing about buying limited tickets ahead of time, starting 11/1, makes me even less concerned about powder day issues. This is for tourists who are planning ahead of time, not locals who are searching for pow days. And generally speaking, you don't have to worry so much about visitors from Oklahoma on pow days. I think this is probably targeted to people who know they have to be there Xmas week or Prez weekend. Most of "us" don't bother with those times, unless we have to. Because -- when is it going to be truly useful? At 10:30 am at the base. (Or, when lifts break and cause lines ) I guess I just try not to worry about most things until they actually happen ...

 

[John O]

This will never happen, but I'd like to see an area forgoed season passes and daily tickets, and instead charge for each lift ride (via RFID, not swiping your CC on every run). Moreover, the rate should be dynamic and a function of the length of the current lift line and vertical served. Increased lines, and hence ride costs, would encourage skiers to distribute over the mountain. It would also be a mechanism to manage overall crowding and capacity. Ski areas would get something similar to a premium pricing model (high ride prices on busy days) and skiers wouldn't have to experience different social classes while waiting for a chair. Off course getting priced out of your day on the slopes wouldn't be fun, but you can always hang out in the lodge to wait for the crowds and prices to drop. Another benefit is it eliminates the sunk-cost fallacy: if you bought a day ticket you feel compelled to stay the whole day, but if you're paying per lift ride, you will have no qualms about leaving early if the fun per dollar rate has dropped below a certain threshold. Again, reducing congestion, freeing up capacity.

Lets do a pay as you go pass. At Jackson, the Tram is $15 a ride, Sublet $5, Casper $6. The lines get short on Casper, "Attention skiers, we are having a sale at the Casper Quad chair, get in line now and it is only $3.75 for the next 45 minutes...."

"Why should I have to pay for lift access to the whole mountain if I am only going to ski part of it?" You buy a pass based on the part of the mountain and lifts you want to ski. A beginner isn't paying for expert access and an Expert isn't paying for the beginners area. I believe Solitude tried this and they stopped it that was either when Alterra took over or it didn't work.

Anything along these lines would be absolutely horrible, in my personal opinion. For me, the best part about having a season pass (possibly even more so than the monetary value to be honest), is the fact that on any given day, I don't have to ever question whether the conditions/weather are "worth it". I can just go and know that I can always call it early if necessary, and not have to feel like I "wasted" a lift ticket. If I now have to make that kind of decision on every single chair lift ride? To decide if it's "worth" paying the money for that lift at that time? Ugh, that might be the thing to finally tip me over the edge into backcountry skiing.

 

[coskigirl]

My husband literally said the same thing about this lift when we were talking about this topic this morning.

We haven't been there since 2013, so I didn't realize they updated that lift. I remember standing in line mildly terrified and preparing myself for some humiliation because SO many snowboarders were falling off (I was on a snowboard). Then I got on and was like...meh...I've been on worse surface lifts.

ETA: Just noticed @coskigirl's comment...yikes...they updated to a T-bar! Do they make snowboarders ride double?

No, snowboarders usually go up by themselves.

Well, they also reduced that grade at the beginning, it wasn't just the fact that it was a poma. It used to be that you got lifted off the ground upon takeoff. Literally, takeoff.

I have vivid memories of trying to get 7 5 and 6-year olds up the platter lift. Each one was followed by their parent (they were invited to ski with us on Challenge Day,) except one who didn't have a parent there and my dad was joining us so he took that kid. Amazingly, they all got on and up in the first try but I had warned all of them repeatedly about the take off and what to do if they came off mid-ride. We had so much fun skiing Spaulding Bowl that day. I think those kids are all in college now.

 

[slowrider]

Well, they also reduced that grade at the beginning, it wasn't just the fact that it was a poma. It used to be that you got lifted off the ground upon takeoff. Literally, takeoff.

Ha, we had a poma that did the same. There was a guy in the shack that pulled a lever to launch each lift. It wasn't every one so you never knew.

 

[tomahawkins]

Anything along these lines would be absolutely horrible, in my personal opinion. For me, the best part about having a season pass (possibly even more so than the monetary value to be honest), is the fact that on any given day, I don't have to ever question whether the conditions/weather are "worth it". I can just go and know that I can always call it early if necessary, and not have to feel like I "wasted" a lift ticket. If I now have to make that kind of decision on every single chair lift ride? To decide if it's "worth" paying the money for that lift at that time? Ugh, that might be the thing to finally tip me over the edge into backcountry skiing.

Right. For me it's rolling out of bed at the crack of 9:30, having a nice breakfast, and getting up to the mountain after the powderchasers have had their fill, usually grabbing a parking space up front and then skiing a pleasant afternoon; if snow or crowds are bad, I go home early. The season pass eliminates the stress of trying to maximize utility out of a single day ticket. Then again, a fine grained pay-per-use model could accomplish the same thing. I'm not fixated on the idea, I'm just saying it would be interesting to see it play out.

 

[crgildart]

IDK.. A pay per run model might work well for us folks who have to travel 2-3 hours to get there. IF I get there and it's kinda messed up, raining, etc.. I'd be good with paying 20 bucks for a couple runs then heading back home. I'd take that over getting there and having to decide if I pay $85 to ski for an hour or two or just bail empty handed with zero skiing. Wintergreen used to have a 4 hour flex ticket. Appalachian has an 8 hour flex that you can sell back for $10 if you only ski 4 hours..

 

[Green08]

For one group, this is just "inevitable" as it happens in other venues. Therefore we normalize and naturalize the creation of finer and finer social distinctions based on wealth. And please lets not pretend that having access to these sorts of amenities isn't a distinction.

Speaking for myself: I only think the development is "inevitable" because of the nature of the business we are discussing. Powdr is a resort operator--Killington, Copper, Bachelor, and Snowbird in degrees are four season resorts. These are businesses whose existence, as we have known them and enjoyed them, hinges on catering to a very luxury clientele. My cousin or great uncle in NYC are not buying Ikon passes to drive up and ski Loon, but to fly out west and ski Copper, WP, Deer Valley etc

Folks have choices to express an opinion--pocketbook and consumer feedback. But, for many of us individually that is a drop in the bucket for these corporations.

The alternative is rather straight forward, and that is to patronize locations that provide the environment we want. Folks choose the local dive bar or java shop because of the experience and quality they think they are getting. CO, Tahoe, and New England have those choices available to them. Not every community with a major resort has those options.

My point, personally, is that we should not be blind or ignorant about what Alterra or Powdr or Boyne are. We should expect them to act like businesses build on profit margin exploitation for the most part. I can enjoy what I get, but I can't expect the same service as the guy renting out the "back room" of a restaurant. And just as the management and sometime neglect of a ski area might cause us to consider where we spend our money, this is not different.

When we discover greed and elitism operating behind the scene, we just shouldn't flatter ourselves with loud virtue signaling of "I'm Shocked! Shocked to find that resorts operate for profit here!"

 

[newfydog]

This will backfire. Skiers speak their minds, especially in the lift lines. If a fast-pass family has to endure lewd comments everytime through the corral they will feel threatened and stop.
We saw this last season when they stopped the lift waiting for someone to mask up. I almost felt sorry for those non-maskers.

Comments from Mt Bachelor locals include blocking the entrance, blasting an air horn whenever they load. More anger and division in an already angry and divided world.

I was reading about the negative reaction in the Bend paper, so I looked to see if a thread was up yet.....11 pages already!

It won't affect me much---if there are lines, I'm out of there. I do worry about the growing wealth/income inequality and the social ramifications thereof. I'm lucky enough to be towards the top of it all and could certainly afford the fast pass, but this is one perk I would never buy. Heliskiing, sure, fancy lodging, no problem, but in this case every chair I buy moves everyone else back a chair. I won't be part of it.

Warren Buffett went to Sun Valley in 1999 and warned that if the top end kept taking a larger and larger portion of the American Pie, we would see political problems. It happened, and the problems are here. With wealth comes responsibility. Driving a fancy car might cause jealousy, but nothing worse. Making others wait while you cut the line is another matter.

 

[crgildart]

Yellowstone Club or GT#O?

 

[Pajarito-bred]

What happened to the days when I could just plunk my ten dollar bill down on the ticket-office windowsill at Alta, and say: "One, please". I'm pretty sure I got ten dollars worth of skiing per day, and some runs were priceless.

My problem with "fast-pass" is the feeling that the people who buy fast-passes are not compensating me for cutting in front of me in the liftline, but resorts are keeping that extra $ for themselves, not passing that income directly to those impacted. Having the line-cutters exposed to the catcalls and snowballs of "regular" skiers could be an effective deterrent, as noted by posters above.

Are ski resort corporate executives sitting around in windowless boardrooms with charts and spreadsheets, scheming to maximize every last penny of profit from the skiing masses? Of course they are, just as we skiers are dreaming and scheming how to stomp on every last flake of powder as cheaply as possible.

I know I should not be complaining, me and many folks on this board are milking our Ikon/other passes to the point that our daily cost is pretty low, plus using local knowledge for avoiding crowds. The unit of pricing, $ xxx per ski season, is pretty coarse. I'm sure if I was charged $ x.xx per vertical foot, or per lift ride, my cost would be a whole lot more and the pain of paying it would hurt more -- I don't want to make those decisions, I'd rather rationalize the expense once a year. Where's my brewery season pass?

Those of us who ski a lot are taking advantage of a pass system where tourists who travel long distances for one week per year still find value in buying a pass, even paying extra to avoid lift lines, so the fast-pass concept balances that out. I still don't like it, although fast-pass buyers don't get a refund if there's no lift line. My skiing dollars are a sunk cost, all that's left for me to do is decide where and when to ski, am I willing to drive further for better crowd, snow and weather conditions, can I neglect competing responsibilities and leisure activities and just ski? (usually Yes)

Compared to how we snow consumers have to deal with pricing/value of less powdery commodities-- navigating skiing costs are just one more challenge that doesn't need further complexity. Ex: The actual value vs. price of an item is a mystery (beer), the price fluctuates seemingly at random (airfare), wheeling/dealing is customary (new cars), supply/demand is out of whack (new cars, airfare, TP, untracked fresh powder, everything...), perceived "Name Brand" value folks will pay extra for (providing an example seems a bad idea)

What's the incremental cost to transport my butt to the top of the hill, compared to the cost of running the ski lift if I don't bother to show up? My 200 pounds of skier/boots/skis, for 15 lift rides/day, 2,000 vertical feet per ride equals 5 million foot-pounds, or 1.883 Kilowatt-hour. For an energy cost of 12 cents per KWh, and assuming a factor of 125% to account for cable friction, wind resistance, and motor efficiency, the daily energy cost/person for skiing/riding the lift is only $0.28 per day!

Oh sure, you could argue there are capital and fixed costs and risks for the resort owner ..... lifts and snowcats aren't exactly cheap, the lift op has to stand there whether or not anyone is loading, somebody has to be paid for cleaning the baselodge, some stupid virus could shut down the whole ski season.....

 

[givethepigeye]

What happened to the days when I could just plunk my ten dollar bill down on the ticket-office windowsill at Alta, and say: "One, please". I'm pretty sure I got ten dollars worth of skiing per day, and some runs were priceless.

My problem with "fast-pass" is the feeling that the people who buy fast-passes are not compensating me for cutting in front of me in the liftline, but resorts are keeping that extra $ for themselves, not passing that income directly to those impacted. Having the line-cutters exposed to the catcalls and snowballs of "regular" skiers could be an effective deterrent, as noted by posters above.

it’s not about you…….at all.

 

[eok]

I'm a Mt. Bachelor local & it's going to be interesting seeing how the Fast Tracks social experiment plays out.

In previous more optimistic times, skiers here might find it easier to just "go with the flow" & seemingly not care about something like Fast Tracks. But times are different right now and far from "optimistic" for a lot of folks. For example, it seems to me that any product/service that amplifies socio-economic division risks unexpected degrees of consumer backlash. Things can take off overnight via social media & get ugly quick. But, hey, it's POWDR - masters of historic screw-ups ... and bad timing.

 

[jmeb]

I'd be pretty upset if I bought a season pass prior to a ski area annoucing they were going to sell folks the ability to cut ahead of me in line. Probably wasn't a reasonable expectation when folks purchased them.

Illegal on the resorts behalf? Probably not. In poor taste? Well...you'll notice they announced this after the majority of pass sales for the season are done with.

 

[DanoT]

I'm a Mt. Bachelor local & it's going to be interesting seeing how the Fast Tracks social experiment plays out.

In previous more optimistic times, skiers here might find it easier to just "go with the flow" & seemingly not care about something like Fast Tracks. But times are different right now and far from "optimistic" for a lot of folks. For example, it seems to me that any product/service that amplifies socio-economic division risks unexpected degrees of consumer backlash. Things can take off overnight via social media & get ugly quick. But, hey, it's POWDR - masters of historic screw-ups ... and bad timing.

The few times that I have been to Mt Bachelor and shared a lift with a local, I was surprised at how many times the subject of "why I hate Powdr management" was brought up out of the blue.

I think it might only take a half dozen pissed off locals to protest the fast lane by going into the fast lane and when refused a ride, just stand there, blocking the fast lane. "Make the fast lane slow"....probably a good thing I don't live in Bend.

 

[newfydog]

The controversy went to the top in a hurry. Bachelor is on national forest land:

WASHINGTON (KTVZ) -- Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., expressed concerns Wednesday in a letter to the parent company of Mt. Bachelor that the introduction of the "Fast Tracks" pass at the Central Oregon ski resort will result in inequitable access to public lands, and called on the business to "abandon its plans."

"Given the serious concerns this policy raises about equitable access to the public lands on which Mt. Bachelor operates under its U.S. Forest Service Special Use permit, I request that POWDR abandon its plans to adopt this new pass system," Wyden wrote in a letter to POWDR Corp. Chair and Founder John Cumming.
......
"I look forward to your response and to continuing to work with you to improve access to Mt. Bachelor so that all Oregonians, regardless of wealth, status, or privilege, can experience the remarkable natural landscape that Oregon’s public lands have to offer.

Sincerely,

Ron Wyden

United States Senator"

Wyden calls on Mt. Bachelor to scrap new 'Fast Tracks' pass, raises equity concerns - KTVZ

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., expressed concerns Wednesday in a letter to the parent company of Mt. Bachelor that the introduction of the "Fast Tracks" pass at the Central Oregon ski resort will result in inequitable access to public lands, and called on the business to "abandon its plans."

ktvz.com

 

[givethepigeye]

has been going on for like…..forever….it’s called the “1/2 Private”. You know the one where you and 5 of your buddies use the ski school line on a powder day and god forbid…..cut the line. For $100. Look at it as a “discount”, and you don’t need to tip or make small talk. The ones that should be PO’d are the instructors.

 

[jmeb]

The controversy went to the top in a hurry. Bachelor is on national forest land:

Pretty wild to see it go straight to the Senator, but also very interesting. All mountains that operate on US Forest Service land (e.g. the vast majority of them out West) have public and equal access clauses in them.

B. Equal Access to Federal Programs. In addition to the above nondiscrimination policy, the holder agrees to insure that its programs and activities are open to the general public on an equal basis and without regard to any non-merit factor

Of course...interpretation of the permits have largely been the domain of the whomever is administring the local forest service district.

 

[givethepigeye]

They will just call is “self-directed” ski school and change the signage. No difference and same as ski school cutting the line.

 

[MissySki]

I saw this posted on another ski forum and found it interesting and very pertinent to this discussion.

The senior US senator from Oregon wrote a letter to Powdr/Mt bachelor's CEO calling for them to abandon the Fast Tracks program before it even starts: