Which ankle movement are we actually talking about when we say “Ankle Flexion” in skiing? Because I’m VERY confused right now

[Magikarp]

If you need a TLDR: my key questions are at the bottom

I’ve been reading threads, trying to learn from the Youtube University, and doing some experiments on my own on the slopes. I understand that our ankle can actually move in SIX different ways, and I think they are all relevant in skiing depending on the situation. (below photos courtesy of crossfit.com)

Inversion/Eversion

• This one is pretty straight forward for me, as it’s the movement needed to engage the edges in a turn. Eversion is for inside edge on outside ski. Inversion is for outside edge of inside ski.

Rotation

• I don’t think of this one as much when carving. But it’s undeniable we are rotating our ankles in all types of skiing, in order to get upper-lower body separation
• For me, this movement becomes a bigger focus though when skiing bumps or more variable terrain (powder, off-piste) because freedom of rotation becomes really obvious when trying to turn with the skis flat (ie. not on edge). In variable terrain, I’m nowhere near good enough to always be using my edge. In powder, it's difficult to feel any edge under my feet!

Dorsiflexion/ Planarflexion

• I’m guessing dorsiflexion is what MOST people here mean when they say ankle flexion, as this is the movement that helps us maintain shin contact on ski boots, or recover if we end up backseat.
• BUTT I’m starting to feel it’s not that simple as one aspires to higher performance skiing. I’m told good skiing no matter the terrain is supposed to be dynamic.
• This is especially stumping me as I’m starting to be told by trainers/instructors to “press” on the ball of my foot to start a turn. The only way I can actually do that is if I use planar flexion on my ankle. I tried doing that on-piste and did feel a tighter turn. I’m wondering if I was really doing planar flexion, or perhaps the feeling was encouraging me to lengthen my outside foot more (ie higher edge angles/ performance).
• In bumps, I didn’t find as much success with planar flexion so still experimenting.
• I’m beginning to feel that planar flexion (or at least the feeling) is the key to unlocking the first half of the turn, as in the part of the arc before the fall line.

Questions

• Is my thought process about the ankle movements and their relevance, correct? I’m especially confused about planar flexion, especially after playing around with it when actually skiing (see above for details)
• In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing? I say this because when I see bump and powder skiiers, I don’t see the high edge angles and relative difference in leg retraction/extension between each leg.

Some photos of different snow conditions for inspiration

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Pressing on the toe as you talked about could just as easily be eversion as platarflexion.

 

[Tom K.]

I'm not one for getting sucked into black holes of ski tech debate, but I do believe that eversion is one of the most crucial, least talked about aspects of carved turns and one's ability to get on the new outside edge early in a turn.

And now I know the fancy term for it!

 

[Rod9301]

I disagree. The easiest way to get an early edge on the outside ski is to concentrate on tipping the new inside ski on its little toe edge and shortening the new inside leg.

 

[Tony S]

In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing?

Yes. My two cents.

 

[Magikarp]

Pressing on the toe as you talked about could just as easily be eversion as platarflexion.

Ah, good point! It could be a combination of both I'm feeling the results of then.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

I think there's a point where we kind of hit the limits of self awareness.

Not to go back around to some of the discussions that Ski School always has – but it sounds like your instructors are trying to get you to flex the tips using pressure on the ball of your foot, and there's a lot of ways to do that. Plantar flexion for sure is one. The ball of the foot is the bottom of your body, though, so you might be doing all kinds of stuff above that. Pulling the feet back from the hamstrings can bring the body weight further forward, which can give you pressure on the ball of the feet. I know some people like the dorsiflexion cue, where you think about closing the ankle and moving the feet back underneath the body to create that pressure. Even just thinking about loosening the calf+AT can work, IMO – the calf can overpower that little muscle in the front, and sometimes people are just holding tension there because that's part of how you get around on foot every day without really thinking about it at all.

You also might do all of these things at various points. I know I tend to plantar flex too hard out of habit from other sports, so I can't think about doing that too much, but I definitely throw it in occasionally when I'm in a "save my ass" kind of moment in the bumps. If you asked me about ideal skiing I would probably never point at a bump line and say "yeah I would plantar flex here and here and there and maybe there if something weird happens" – but in the moment it might be a handy little trick.

I feel like we think a lot about the muscle that's doing an action – but not so much the fact that that muscle coexists with an antagonist, and a bunch of other muscles that are just doing their own deal without us thinking too much. I swear I've had coaches who say "ankle flexion" when they mean a move that's like 10% conscious ankle flexion and 90% doing something completely different somewhere else – but they think of it as ankle flexion, because they're not thinking as hard about the rest of the move, so that's the wording. Skiing in a lot of ways is an exercise in trying to break out of the ways that our bodies are built for walking, and IMO most people's cues are relative to things like how they walk, if they run, the other sports they're used to, etc. Skiers are kind of the worst people to talk about skiing with, because most of us use what we already do as a frame of reference for what we're trying to do now – but when we describe it it's always going to skip some of the stuff that we do unconsciously.

Maybe more of a philosophical thought than a helpful thought, lol. I just think it's one of those things where you can spend a lot of time talking about it, and sometimes it's helpful to get an idea of what other people do so you can try it – but also their cue probably lacks some context, and might be totally irrelevant to your body.

 

[RoninSkier]

Which ankle movement are we actually talking about when we say “Ankle Flexion” in skiing?

Its almost all doriflexion.

Plantarflexion is used only to a minor degree - to stroke the ski - to drive in edges/accelerate in carving - to retain or regain snow contact in bumps & powder.

A instructor emphasizing pressuring the balls of the feet& using plantarflexion? I don't get it..... perhaps the emphasis should be shin contact - of varying pressure + rolling to initiate shovel hook up.
How to do that by stepping/shifting forward or pulling the inside foot back or shortening the old outside vs lengthening the new outside leg, etc, etc depends on the skier & situation.

Rotation = pivoting/rotary action.
Needed for steering, brushed, smeared turns. Like for basic parallel, speed control in bumps and in powder as you break above the snow to initiate a turn.
Has minor influence in pure carved turns.

Inversion/Eversion = the attempt at doing these moves, because your foot is in a cast called a ski boot (yes some play, not give, in the liner etc} But attempting these movements braces the foot against the boot so that you can make/manipulate the necessary forces to roll your skis on edge, pivot them etc.
In the strictest sense dorsi/plantarflexion controls weight/force distribution fore & aft.

In additon dorsi/plantar movements increases the connection between our feet & boots to our skis.
This is why we can side-slip & edge. On a moderate slope, in a stacked stance, relax your ankles... you side-slip.
Now tense your ankles, but no knee drive/angulation, no inclination.... you start to grip.

The cast called a ski boot has a hinge, called the cuff - this allows for dorsiflexion and some plantarflexion to be used.

IMHO​

 

[TonyPlush]

I once had a ski instructor talk to me about a "rocking horse" motion during the turn... and I will butcher this explanation because I'm just an average skier... but my understanding was that throughout the turn the pressure on your feet rocks back and forth slighty - from pressing forward during initiation to a little more relaxed during transition.

Now that I think about it, I'm wondering if this is another way of saying that you start the turn with plantar flexion and then move into dorsiflexion during the turn?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It’s also possible that the ski can dorsiflex your foot for you.

 

[ThomasH]

I once had a ski instructor talk to me about a "rocking horse" motion during the turn... and I will butcher this explanation because I'm just an average skier... but my understanding was that throughout the turn the pressure on your feet rocks back and forth slighty - from pressing forward during initiation to a little more relaxed during transition.

Now that I think about it, I'm wondering if this is another way of saying that you start the turn with plantar flexion and then move into dorsiflexion during the turn?

Kind of like what he's talking about here-

 

[JESinstr]

Dorsiflexion/ Planarflexion

• I’m guessing dorsiflexion is what MOST people here mean when they say ankle flexion, as this is the movement that helps us maintain shin contact on ski boots, or recover if we end up backseat.
• BUTT I’m starting to feel it’s not that simple as one aspires to higher performance skiing. I’m told good skiing no matter the terrain is supposed to be dynamic.
• This is especially stumping me as I’m starting to be told by trainers/instructors to “press” on the ball of my foot to start a turn. The only way I can actually do that is if I use planar flexion on my ankle. I tried doing that on-piste and did feel a tighter turn. I’m wondering if I was really doing planar flexion, or perhaps the feeling was encouraging me to lengthen my outside foot more (ie higher edge angles/ performance).
• In bumps, I didn’t find as much success with planar flexion so still experimenting.
• I’m beginning to feel that planar flexion (or at least the feeling) is the key to unlocking the first half of the turn, as in the part of the arc before the fall line.

View attachment 196162
Questions

• Is my thought process about the ankle movements and their relevance, correct? I’m especially confused about planar flexion, especially after playing around with it when actually skiing (see above for details)
• In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing? I say this because when I see bump and powder skiiers, I don’t see the high edge angles and relative difference in leg retraction/extension between each leg.

I posted the below this morning on the ankle flexion thread not seeing this new thread. Notice, it appears the image of dorsiflexion relates to the closing of the ankle via lifting of the foot.

"Is dorsiflexion and plantarflexion truly defined by a simple closing/opening of the ankle? To me, there is a huge difference in anatomical feeling between closing my ankle from the top down vs pulling my foot up. Same goes for plantar flexion when walking/running etc. and simply extending my foot in a downward motion.

By invoking dorsiflexion I can balance through my heels. By invoking plantarflexion, I can balance through my toes.
In a ski boot however, I can invoke dorsiflexion by raising my toes and foot to the top of the shell, but the design of the boot liner is to capture and hold my heel to the sole thus thwarting plantarflexion.

There is a saying in bump skiing that "tips go in first" and to that extent, I agree that a pointing down of the foot is necessary, but it is an initiation redirection of the skis not a pressure move. IMO."

 

[Henry]

"I’m starting to be told by trainers/instructors to “press” on the ball of my foot to start a turn. The only way I can actually do that is if I use planar flexion on my ankle."
Not sure of the context here. I'd say to pull your skis back under you until you're balanced on the balls of your feet. Pushing down, planar flexing, sends one to the back seat, and we only want to be on the tails of our skis in a couple of specific circumstances.

"In bumps, I didn’t find as much success with planar flexion so still experimenting."
Quite the contrary, you want to bring the tips of your skis down to the snow. Rule of thumb: if your ski tips are in the air you have no control. So, pull both feet back under you to bring your tips down. As you're going down the bump let the skis get centered under you. If you're about to go up the side of a bump very briefly push your feet forward to lighten the tips, then very promptly get re-centered.

"I’m beginning to feel that planar flexion (or at least the feeling) is the key to unlocking the first half of the turn, as in the part of the arc before the fall line."
Uh-uh. You want to start the turn with the skis pulled way back under you to get the tips engaged, then allow the skis to get centered under you as the turn continues. A more advanced movement is to let the skis get a bit ahead of you at the end of the turn, the strongly pull them back to begin the next turn.

"In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing? I say this because when I see bump and powder skiiers, I don’t see the high edge angles and relative difference in leg retraction/extension between each leg."
Yes, keeping both skis side by side as best you can has two benefits. Any weight on the inside ski is as centered as you can make it, not on the tail of that ski. And, pulling the inside ski back tends to impel the body forward. In both powder and bumps it is a benefit to keep the feet close together and side by side. On bumps you don't want one foot low on the side of a bump and the other foot high on that bump...you can't move much from that position. In powder both feet together make a platform for better flotation and movement.

 

[RoninSkier]

I once had a ski instructor talk to me about a "rocking horse" motion during the turn... and I will butcher this explanation because I'm just an average skier... but my understanding was that throughout the turn the pressure on your feet rocks back and forth slighty - from pressing forward during initiation to a little more relaxed during transition.

Now that I think about it, I'm wondering if this is another way of saying that you start the turn with plantar flexion and then move into dorsiflexion during the turn?

I suggest its the other way around dorsi followed by plantar. Its another way to explain 'stroking' the foot/ski - to hook up the shovels then drive the skis, cut the edge through the turn.

Hook up starts with more shin contact pressure, more closing of the ankle jt, rocking forward, or dorsiflexion.
Driving, finishing the turn, back off on shin contact pressure, opening the ankle jt, rocking back, or plantarflexion.

This all has to be subtle and smooth and quick, needs to be developed through focused drills.

All this tech nerdy biomechanic talk is fascinating but will make our heads explode.

 

[Jamt]

It’s also possible that the ski can dorsiflex your foot for you.

Exactly, what is missing in the movement discussion is what the muscular activity is. When the outside ski force increases rapidly in a turn it is quite likely that the foot will move in dorsiflexion, but the active muscles are the plantar flexion muscles (e.g. gastrocnemius, soleus and plantaris) (or even a bit of both if co-contraction). Meanwhile on the inside you may have the dorsiflexion muscles active due to the much lower force while you want to tip and flex.
See e.g. this graph of Gastrocnemius (GM) and Tibialis Anterior (TA) activity in a GS turn.

 

[Tin Pants]

If you need a TLDR: my key questions are at the bottom

I’ve been reading threads, trying to learn from the Youtube University, and doing some experiments on my own on the slopes. I understand that our ankle can actually move in SIX different ways, and I think they are all relevant in skiing depending on the situation. (below photos courtesy of crossfit.com)

Inversion/Eversion

• This one is pretty straight forward for me, as it’s the movement needed to engage the edges in a turn. Eversion is for inside edge on outside ski. Inversion is for outside edge of inside ski.

View attachment 196161
Rotation

• I don’t think of this one as much when carving. But it’s undeniable we are rotating our ankles in all types of skiing, in order to get upper-lower body separation
• For me, this movement becomes a bigger focus though when skiing bumps or more variable terrain (powder, off-piste) because freedom of rotation becomes really obvious when trying to turn with the skis flat (ie. not on edge). In variable terrain, I’m nowhere near good enough to always be using my edge. In powder, it's difficult to feel any edge under my feet!

View attachment 196160
Dorsiflexion/ Planarflexion

• I’m guessing dorsiflexion is what MOST people here mean when they say ankle flexion, as this is the movement that helps us maintain shin contact on ski boots, or recover if we end up backseat.
• BUTT I’m starting to feel it’s not that simple as one aspires to higher performance skiing. I’m told good skiing no matter the terrain is supposed to be dynamic.
• This is especially stumping me as I’m starting to be told by trainers/instructors to “press” on the ball of my foot to start a turn. The only way I can actually do that is if I use planar flexion on my ankle. I tried doing that on-piste and did feel a tighter turn. I’m wondering if I was really doing planar flexion, or perhaps the feeling was encouraging me to lengthen my outside foot more (ie higher edge angles/ performance).
• In bumps, I didn’t find as much success with planar flexion so still experimenting.
• I’m beginning to feel that planar flexion (or at least the feeling) is the key to unlocking the first half of the turn, as in the part of the arc before the fall line.

View attachment 196162
Questions

• Is my thought process about the ankle movements and their relevance, correct? I’m especially confused about planar flexion, especially after playing around with it when actually skiing (see above for details)
• In “performance” skiing (carving), there’s a lot of talk about retracting the inside ski RELATIVE to the outside ski (ie outside leg extended, inside leg retracted). But is this idea less relevant in bump and powder skiing? I say this because when I see bump and powder skiiers, I don’t see the high edge angles and relative difference in leg retraction/extension between each leg.

Some photos of different snow conditions for inspiration
View attachment 196163 View attachment 196164 View attachment 196165

you have opened a whole can of worms here. physios I think will describe 2 types of dorsiflexion one where you move the foot towards the tibia and one where you move the tibia towards the foot the first one is called free dorsiflexion because you can perform it without any weight on the foot the 2nd one requires weight on the foot and both require different muscles to perform the movement anytime the foot moves towards the tibia it is dorsiflexion there are 2 ways to achieve this be careful with planter flexion I do not think it should ever be used in alpine skiing, telemarking is a different story if you planter flex you open the ankle and the tibia moves back the other thing that happens is your heel will lift off the bottom of the boot this is bad because the subtalar joint does not work well without weight on the heel lift your foot off the floor and try and invert and evert your foot you can't then put weight on your heel and try this is why telling people to stand on the ball of the foot is BS the ankle is a very complex joint and we have not even touched supination and pronation or rotation

 

[cantunamunch]

It’s also possible that the ski can dorsiflex your foot for you.

If it didn't, we'd have forums chock full of shin splint complaints. Like - macho-overdoing springtime runners would look at skiers and pity them - levels of shin splint complaints.

 

[Rod9301]

Exactly, what is missing in the movement discussion is what the muscular activity is. When the outside ski force increases rapidly in a turn it is quite likely that the foot will move in dorsiflexion, but the active muscles are the plantar flexion muscles (e.g. gastrocnemius, soleus and plantaris) (or even a bit of both if co-contraction). Meanwhile on the inside you may have the dorsiflexion muscles active due to the much lower force while you want to tip and flex.
See e.g. this graph of Gastrocnemius (GM) and Tibialis Anterior (TA) activity in a GS turn.

There's no way these muscles can achieve dorsiflexion in stiff ski boots.
Much more effective is to pull your feet back, mostly the inside one. Using the hamstrings

 

[Jamt]

There's no way these muscles can achieve dorsiflexion in stiff ski boots.
Much more effective is to pull your feet back, mostly the inside one. Using the hamstrings

To be strict I never said it does, that was kind of the idea behind my post. However, if the GS world champion has active dorsiflexion muscles it cannot be too bad.
I agree with the pullback, but if you want to lighten the inside you cannot overdo it. I like the "tip, lighten and pull back the inside foot" concept and I think that it is quite natural to use dorsiflexion muscle tension in that movement, in particular since TA both supinates and dorsiflexes the ankle joint.

 

[razie]

Exactly, what is missing in the movement discussion is what the muscular activity is. When the outside ski force increases rapidly in a turn it is quite likely that the foot will move in dorsiflexion, but the active muscles are the plantar flexion muscles (e.g. gastrocnemius, soleus and plantaris) (or even a bit of both if co-contraction). Meanwhile on the inside you may have the dorsiflexion muscles active due to the much lower force while you want to tip and flex.
See e.g. this graph of Gastrocnemius (GM) and Tibialis Anterior (TA) activity in a GS turn.

Why the difference in TA and GM between left and right footer? I think that's an average right?