International (Europe/Japan/Southern Hemisphere) 2021-2022 Europe Resorts/Conditions/Meetups

[Jacob]

The no week long trips isn't about boredom, it is just that this is the first true ski vacation or vacation with skiing that we have ever taken. We are a ski race family, so we are generally at our home mountain training, or on the road for the duration of the races. We have never had a chance to take a vacation like this. It just didn't even register with us that staying put was more common the bouncing in and bouncing out.

There are plenty of smaller resorts that people bounce between for shorter visits, but the whole point of the really big areas is to have the variety of multiple resorts without having to relocate. Bouncing between them is like bouncing between Summit Co and SLC.

It’s certainly possible, but as an American who’s lived in Europe for a while, I think you’d have a more enjoyable time if you picked two areas and skied each for a week, because that would give you more time to explore and take advantage of the different type of skiing you get in the Alps. Also, in case it snows while you’re there, you’ll still have days left over to explore, and you won’t feel like you didn’t get to see an area.

FYI, this is what skiing in the Alps can be like when it snows (not my video). This is one of the blues in Tignes.



I’ve had December trips to Val d’Isere and January trips to Verbier and St. Anton in recent years where it was like that for four or five days in a row.

 

[Jwrags]

Always wanted to ski in the Alps and with retirement eminent it seems possible. Based on your graph it appears the least crowded times to visit are mid January or mid to late March. Keeping in mind that it is impossible to predict snow conditions which would you veteran Alps skiers choose? Also, if it is a once in a lifetime trip with a non skiing wife where would you go for the “experience”? I’m thinking Zermatt. Bonus points if the area is on the Ikon or Epic passes.

 

[Seldomski]

Ikon or Epic passes.

Make sure to read the fine print on these 'benefits.' Epic may require you stay at one of their hotels/lodges to get the lift ticket benefit. Ikon has their own warts related to this - I haven't looked at that one as closely. Good thing is that lift tickets in Europe are cheaper and the penalty for buying them a week or two in advance instead of several months in advance doesn't get you much of a discount anyway.

Skiing in whiteout above tree-line is pretty bad as @Jacob showed. But it's not necessarily a day you cannot ski. If you are planning a week or two long trip, try to stay somewhere that has some skiing below tree-line. That way, you can still enjoy some skiing if it snows.

I have only skied two weeks total in Europe - 1 at Cortina and 1 at St. Anton in different years. So, my experience is limited. Both of these had some skiing below tree-line available. Enough terrain to keep me entertained for the day or two it snowed. But most of the skiing was well above tree line. Blue bird days in the alps are magical.

 

[David Chaus]

Someone who knows anything please correct me, my cursory search indicates Schladming is one of the few major Alps resorts that has predominantly below tree-line skiing.

 

[Cheizz]

Someone who knows anything please correct me, my cursory search indicates Schladming is one of the few major Alps resorts that has predominantly below tree-line skiing.

It is. However, it is not the snowiest place in the Alps. Therefore, they rely heavily on snow-making systems, which are excellent though. And if you want to ski off-piste in the trees, it isn't perfect for it. The trees are quite close together and the snow cover is very thin. It does keep very well though since it's all on north-facing slopes.

Some other areas in Ski Amadé (the cluster of ski areas under the Ski Amadé pass in Salburgerland, Austria) also are mostly below treeline: Wagrain, Flachau, Grossarl-Dorfgastein, Hochkönig...

 

[Cheizz]

Always wanted to ski in the Alps and with retirement eminent it seems possible. Based on your graph it appears the least crowded times to visit are mid January or mid to late March. Keeping in mind that it is impossible to predict snow conditions which would you veteran Alps skiers choose? Also, if it is a once in a lifetime trip with a non skiing wife where would you go for the “experience”? I’m thinking Zermatt. Bonus points if the area is on the Ikon or Epic passes.

Mid-January is great for mid-winter conditions obviously. Completely white landscapes etc. The mountain charm and coziness are definitely there. It can be bitterly cold though, and more exposed terrain (especially above treeline) can be pretty thin and sharky still if you venture off-piste.
March is preferable if you want more off-piste skiing. Better snow cover (accumulated over a longer period), but if temperatures are already high, more brown spots on south-facing slopes and different snow conditions due to melt and thaw cycles. In that sense, it's mid-winter vs early spring. Obviously, January could be relatively mild and March could be bitterly cold and snowy too. Especially when you want to go off-piste, I would opt for March. For anything else - I don't think it matters much skiing-wise.

 

[fatbob]

During school holidays, even AirBnbs are full weeks only. My experience. Don't count on being able to book just a few nights if that means that accommodations lose the option to rent to someone else for a full week. Especially in the Christmas and New Year period, which is the busiest ni the season.

And even though Cervinia and the Dolomites are both in Italy, there is a 7 hour drive in between... For future reference.

Pay attention to this - have you got your AirBnBs locked down yet? If not don't count on them being suddenly available closer to the time. And yes not all Euro landlords use every platform so it can be hit and miss for some locations.

Personally I'd highly advocate for a 2 base vacation. I don't think Landeck is a bad base though - you have Arlberg to the west, you're on the doorstepp for Serfaus Fiss etc and then you can have access to the madness of Ischgl or the spots around Innsbruck like Kuhtai or Stubai easily enough.

 

[James]

Make sure to read the fine print on these 'benefits.' Epic may require you stay at one of their hotels/lodges to get the lift ticket benefit.

Heh, yeah. I think they’re getting better, but a lot of it is pretty useless. Epic for Verbier- never used it as I’d have to book a week at one of their lodgings.

Always wanted to ski in the Alps and with retirement eminent it seems possible. Based on your graph it appears the least crowded times to visit are mid January or mid to late March.

Oh, very exciting.
@Cheizz is good for euro vacation dates. I guess I’d lean to March. I’ve actually only been to Europe in the last several years during French ski vacation weeks. I didn’t find it all that bad at all. Depends what you’re used to. I suppose if one eats out every night it could get tiresome.

When deciding on a place to go, pay attention to the topography of the town. Is it on a hill, or relatively flat? Eg, Verbier is on slopes, even though it may look flatish from aerial views. The effect of that is to reduce just wandering around to see things. (Not that there’s really all that much.) Do I really want to walk up that hill?… ( no) If one is hunkering down in lodgings, it doesn’t really matter.

In contrast, Chamonix is generally flat. It’s in the valley. So I’ve walked all over the place. Not quaint, though you could obtain quaint lodging perhaps. (But quaint and flat there, hmmm… prob not but depends on the definition)

For non skier, there’s often other guided activities like snow shoe tours, and even at night. Plus, many places have gondolas and trams that can get non skiers up on the mountain for lunch. Lots of places you could make it to the top. If it’s a nice day, there’s nothing like it. You can do a late break and head down together. Some just can’t give up their vert obsession and won’t consider such an arrangement.

One of the most frustrating things is all the names, which is highly confusing at first. There’s no real way around it. It’s like you want to go to Aspen, and your lodging search is coming up “Carbondale”. Wth is that? Multiply that by 5 for lots of Europe.

Consider a ski club trip that you modify. There’s always non skiers or people resting for a day. Likely someone will have some knowledge of the area. You’ll also have possible companions to split a guide.

 

[Jacob]

Someone who knows anything please correct me, my cursory search indicates Schladming is one of the few major Alps resorts that has predominantly below tree-line skiing.

There’s also the combined area of Les Diablerets, Villars, and Gryon. Most of the skiing there is between 1000 and 2000 m.

 

[Slim]

Always wanted to ski in the Alps and with retirement eminent it seems possible. Based on your graph it appears the least crowded times to visit are mid January or mid to late March. Keeping in mind that it is impossible to predict snow conditions which would you veteran Alps skiers choose? Also, if it is a once in a lifetime trip with a non skiing wife where would you go for the “experience”? I’m thinking Zermatt. Bonus points if the area is on the Ikon or Epic passes.

It would seem to me, that if you are traveling with a non-skier, Late March is a much better option, assuming your non-skier is a non-winter sports person in general?

Although, as we all know, sometimes March can be a bit grey and muddy down low, so if she wants picture postcard images of snowy chalets, and doesn’t mind the cold, then January might be better. Also, if she wants to do other winter sports, escpeiaily cross country skiing, but even some ice climbing locations, are more iffy in March.

But, in general, one of the nice things at ski areas in Europe, and many towns in general, is sitting out on a patio having a drink or something too eat. This is obviously much nicer in March than in January.

As far as where to go skiing while traveling with your wife, I think there are many great options depending on her interests.

Zermat certainly seems worth a look, but there are plenty of other ideas too:

One idea could be to stay in a bigger city, like Salzburg, if she likes to do city things.

Or, if she likes things a bit more laid back, how about Serre Chevalier or Puy St. Vincent in France? The ski area spreads along a longer valley with many villages and small towns (Briancon) that don’t see quite as many (foreign) tourists, so they can be fun to walk around and hang out if you like old towns.

If she likes rock walls and spires, one of the ski areas in the Dolomites should be high on your list.

If she likes shopping, tax free Livigno might be the perfect destination.

 

[Jacob]

Always wanted to ski in the Alps and with retirement eminent it seems possible. Based on your graph it appears the least crowded times to visit are mid January or mid to late March. Keeping in mind that it is impossible to predict snow conditions which would you veteran Alps skiers choose? Also, if it is a once in a lifetime trip with a non skiing wife where would you go for the “experience”? I’m thinking Zermatt. Bonus points if the area is on the Ikon or Epic passes.

Another town to consider is Arosa. It has walking trails on the mountain, which gives you the option of meeting up for lunch on the mountain. It’s also a proper town with activities off the mountain and a train line, which opens up options for day trips for non-skiers.

 

[James]

There’s a lot of options.

You’re going to have to choose how to decide. Maybe places to be visited, then find specific places to ski. Unless you really want to ski some place, then work around that. How much time is prob first and most important, and you could do a couple places.

Where you fly into/out of- you can use time there to sight see then train or drive where you’re going. Just as an example, you can fly into/out of Venice. Which is pretty crazy unless that’s not your thing. (Less than 3 days in Venice is too rushed imo.)

Last few years I’ve gone it became much cheaper to fly to Paris than Geneva. Last two I went by car with my friends from Paris. So no bringing of skis. (A blessing and a curse).

One year I drove all the way to Geneva airport from Paris then took a shuttle to Verbier. Last two times had lunch somewhere on the way, then stayed a night in town and drove on the next day.

Lyon- did airbnb. I didn’t read the fine print enough I was focusing on location. Turned out it was a 7 story walkup! Hah, the woman said her 80 year old grandmother does it all the time.
Last time we stayed in Lac D’Annecy.

I think when renting a car, returning it in another country entails a large fee. At least when I did it, if you returned it to the Swiss side of the airport instead of the French dide, it was like a €300 charge.


Lac D’Annecy, a nice day in February.


Lyon

 

[James]

Solden Glacier start.

 

[Bolder]

I am notorious for trying to overfill every moment of our lives and this may be another case of that. It will be a 15 day trip, though with only 9 days of skiing. We could certainly have limited ourselves to just one or two areas, but we won't make many of these trips and the kids really wanted to ski in France, Switzerland, and Austria. They actually pushed for Italy as well, but we are just going to make a quick non-ski trip down to Aosta.

We will have a rental car which we know we won't need in the resorts, but it makes getting from stop to stop much easier and allows side trips on the non-ski days. With two racer kids we are going to make the drive up to Courchevel for the world cup GS one day if they are allowing spectators. In the Arlberg we are staying in Landeck rather than St. Anton/Lech/Zurs the car may come in handy to start a day in Warth if we don't want to take the bus from Landeck to St. Anton every day.

The Verbier to Landeck drive is definitely a haul, but we have a full day planned for it with the thought to maybe drive through Lichtenstein and take it pretty casually. A day of car sight seeing. We rented a good all wheel drive with a ski rack (we are taking our skis) so we are hopeful it won't be too bad of a drive.

Our thought is to splurge on a private guide for our first day in St. Anton so we can get some good off piste and learn the resort just a little. Spending all of our time skiing in North America the notion of off piste being uncontrolled and potentially hazardous is literally foreign to us. We spend 90% our time off piste at home, so we have to find a way to get off the groomers. Plus we will look ridiculous skiing groomers on 95mm to 108mm skis. None of us even own carving skis other than race skis. The owner of the AirBnB at which we are staying in Verbier offered to show us around the mountain, but I don't know if that will get off piste or not. May have to hire a guide there as a family Christmas present if our host isn't knowledgeable enough to get off the groomed. Our son is also a freeride competitor, so Verbier is like the promised land for him. He will have to find some cliffs to huck.

You can do this!

Don't fret the driving/faffing about; all part of the fun! Just get the snow chain situation figured out before you have to chain up...keep an eye on the weather and be flexible; The Alps is notorious for epic blizzard-caused traffic jams because the roads are narrow and everyone's trying to get in and out of the same place at the same time. And the passes are closed generally after Nov. 1.

If you're looking for off-piste you'll need a guide, though.

 

[Bolder]

Always wanted to ski in the Alps and with retirement eminent it seems possible. Based on your graph it appears the least crowded times to visit are mid January or mid to late March. Keeping in mind that it is impossible to predict snow conditions which would you veteran Alps skiers choose? Also, if it is a once in a lifetime trip with a non skiing wife where would you go for the “experience”? I’m thinking Zermatt. Bonus points if the area is on the Ikon or Epic passes.

I would choose Zermatt or the Dolomites (Val G, Cortina) for a bucket list Alps trip with a nonskier. I think the Dolomite SuperSki area (would take a lifetime to ski,basically) is now on Epic or Ikon as of this year. Almost certain that Zermatt is too..

Have been to both; my wife only does XC so after 2 hours she's done for the day -- the key for a nonskier is stunning scenery, real villages/towns with spas, shopping, restaurants, stuff to do and just pretty good hanging out, not to mention showshoe walks etc. As mentioned, you can take a train up from Zermatt to the skiing and meet up at a restaurant, or in Val Gardena can meet at many of the mountain baitas (restaurants/bars), get a drink and people-watch, with gondolas. Nothing better than drinking an Aperol spritz on a bluebird day in the Dolomites. Or, for that matter, a radler (beer with lemony soda) with a view of the Matterhorn.

I'd choose mid-March. Going to be a LOT warmer. Snow could be better in January but for sure you have a better chance of warmer weather in town later in the season. Late March is pushing it a bit for snow cover, however. I guess I'd choose mid-January over late March but mid-March over mid-January.

 

[Bolder]

Someone who knows anything please correct me, my cursory search indicates Schladming is one of the few major Alps resorts that has predominantly below tree-line skiing.

Speaking of France, depends what you call "major" -- all the mega-stations here like 3V, Paradiski, Espace Killy are known for above-treeline skiing (although all have some lower runs).

However, there are "biggish" connected areas like Serre Chevalier, Espace Diamant, Megeve/St. Gervais/Les Contamines, Portes du Soleil that are mostly below the treeline and would easily entertain you for a solid week. Portes du Soleil claims 650 km of runs, for example; Serre Che and Espace Diamant are probably 300 km or so. Have been to all these lower-level stations and had a great time but it is conditions dependent compared to, say, Val Thorens where the skiing starts at something like 2,600 meters (the high point in Espace Diamant, I think, is 2,100 meters...)

Do keep in mind that with climate change anything below 1,500 meters is getting iffy in terms of shoulder season snow coverage (i.e. outside of the mid-January/mid-March window.

 

[Ice2Pow]

@Cheizz and others - let's spice this board up. Our group is headed to Zermatt this year. I've never been there. A few questions:

1) Is there a recommended get-to-know-the-place tour like the Weisse Ring at St. Anton? If not, any suggested first and second day ski experiences?
2) Any not-to-be-missed lunch spots? Our group does like the leisure lunch with wine thing. Non-powder days of course.
3) We also have a subset that loves to get a guide and go off-piste, preferably lift-assisted because our legs are not so young. Any suggestions for guide groups?
4) We have been known to thoroughly enjoy the après' scene on the mountain, such as the KK and Mooserwirt at St. Anton. Any recs? Perhaps a place with a little less beer spillage and a little more refinement? We promise we won't dance on the tables in our ski boots. Or at least we won't start it. Blame the Austrians

Appreciate any direction you can give us! Haha.

 

[Cheizz]

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to any of your questions. I have only been there a few times and always on a day trip from the Italian side. The last time was 6 years ago. I think others may have more recent info, at least.

Generally speaking, if you have the international ski pass, hop over to the Italian side for lunch. Both in terms of price and quality, Italy always trumps Switzerland.

 

[Choucas]

1. There is a route that they pitch which is a day long ride a lot of lifts, get a lot of vertical. You can get info on it on www.zermatt.ch. If you're planning on skiing on the Swiss side, I like starting at Sunnegga and work your way to the Gornergrat via Gant and on down to Furi. From there, up to the Klein Matterhorn and then explore around the north facing slopes of Shwarzsee below the Matterhorn. If you get a good day, head to the Klein Matterhorn and then head over into Cervinia. Must stop for food and hot chocolate is Chalet Etoile on the upper slops of Cervinia.
2. Lunch spots: https://www.zermatt.ch/en/eating-drinking/Mountain-restaurants/(ansicht)/liste/(ort)/58329. Notables are Fluhalp, Gandegghutte (outdoor seating for great views of the Monte Rosa), Furri, Chez Vrony (more in the fine dining category) in Findeln, Zum See (same category as Chez Vrony, great food), Ritti, and Gitz Gadi. I'd avoid the company restaurants at the top/bottom of the lifts. Dine outdoors whenever you can. If it's cold, hit the lower mountain restaurants. Big altitude/temperature difference between restaurants in Furri vs. places like Fluhalp or the Gandegghutte higher on the mountain. I recommend making reservations for lunch. Euros like to eat late and linger.
3. Off piste. You can book a guide through the guides bureau. Info on the web site. If your snow and weather are good, by all means hire a guide. Worth every penny.
4. après scene is not at the Austrian level. Hennu Stall on the way down from Furi to Zermatt is of the KK ilk. Papperla Pub in town is a go to. Check out the North Wall Bar too.

You'll probably be using the bus to get to a lift station from your hotel. If it's during a busy time, go early to avoid crowded buses and jam ups at the valley stations. Don't hesitate to get a cab if you're headed to the lift in the morning and have a ways to walk. Your hotel can have one come right to the hotel door. Worth it. Same on the way home. If the buses are jammed, there's a cab line (glorified enclosed electric golf carts) at the bottom of the lift.
Investigate checking your bags at your US airport and having them sent through to Zermatt. I think you can still do this. It's not a hefty charge and if you're traveling by train from Zurich to Zermatt it's a huge advantage to not have to schlep gear bags on and off trains. You can also send your gear ahead to Zurich the day before you leave and pick them up at the Zurich airport when you arrive for your flight the next day. Just take them to the train station in Zermatt after you're done skiing the day before you are flying home and they will ship them to ZRH. The Swiss are good at this kind of thing.

 

[Ice2Pow]

@Choucas - appreciate the detailed recs. The bus-skipping benefit of the golf cart taxis sounds great, and the use of the direct-to-hotel ski bag shipping sounds downright devine. We have indeed had miserable experiences towing and cramming our gear into the trains and then not having anywhere to sit. Will investigate further!