Arizona/New Mexico 2022-2023 Four Corners Ski Resorts/Conditions/Meetups

[teejaywhy]

Thought I would kick things off with this tidbit received by email yesterday:

"YOU DONT WANT TO MISS THIS"
"Countdown to the big news ..."

 

[New2]

I was looking at the Indy Pass home page and the picture they used for "Explore West Resorts" was so iconic it made me double-check whether Snowbowl had joined. Nope... and Arizona isn't even in their "West" region anyway. I suppose they probably just used whatever clip art was cheap.

 

[teejaywhy]

OK, Sunrise's Big News is a $5.5M improvement plan.
Link: https://www.sunrise.ski/2022/08/25/sunrise-park-resort-announces-5-5-million-improvement-plan/

Hmmm... $4M for hotel reno, that doesn't leave much for lift and snowmaking upgrades.

Actually, the only mention of lift improvements are the "Swiss Cord" lift accessing Cyclone (what is that?, sounds like a rope tow), and control system upgrades to the Pony Lift and Lift 4 (aka Ft. Apache). Wow.

My thoughts: people stay in the hotel when they come to ski. If there is no "come to ski" (due to decayed ski infrastructure), then there is no "stay in the hotel." Skiers are not staying away from Sunrise due to a crappy hotel. Fix/improve the ski area infrastructure (lifts, snowmaking, day lodge facilities and parking lot) first. That will attract more skiers, which may then increase the number of visitors who may want to stay overnight.

EDIT: Swiss Cord, yep, a rope tow:
http://www.starlifts.com/en/lifte-swiss-cord

 

[Dryheat]

Yes, this was kinda discussed at the very end of last seasons thread.

I don't think anyone here is surprised. Just embarrassing that it's taken then 5 years to find enough pennies in the tribal casino to built a minimally viable way to cyclone...a town rope.

 

[cholla]

Plus, to ski Cyclone top-to-bottom and do it again will require THREE lifts. Two chairs, and the rope two.

 

[clong83]

Plus, to ski Cyclone top-to-bottom and do it again will require THREE lifts. Two chairs, and the rope two.

But... if you wanted to do laps on Cyclone, you can just keep doing the tow rope and not go to the bottom, right? It's been a very long time since I went there, but as I recall, there's not really any compelling reason to go to the bottom from Cyclone unless you want to generally go back to the front side.

But I agree that getting from one side of their mountain to the other has always been cumbersome at best.

On that note... My thought after thinking about it some is that maybe they have some longer-medium term plans in regards to their lifts, and don't want to spend a lot of money on a system that they plan to make obsolete in 5-10 years. It might just be an ad hoc fix to get that part of their mountain open in the short term, while they raise capital to overhaul their entire lift access system. A man can dream.

Otherwise, a tow rope makes little sense. They are a relic, and were only ever really common on short pitches and beginner slopes in the first place. Maybe someone older than me can chime in, but I sure don't remember any tow ropes being used to access major parts of any mountains within the last 30 years.

And as I recall, part of Cyclone is kinda steep. Might be kinda rough hanging on to a tow rope, you will get a few people falling. If this were a more medium to long term solution, I'd at least opt for a T-bar. I know a T-bar isn't particularly boarder friendly, but it is fast and relatively easy to use. From talking to boarder friends, it's not a deal-breaker for boarders, it just has a bit of a steep learning curve. It couldn't really cost that much more than a rope tow I wouldn't think. It would also have some retro appeal. I personally like T-bars. They are kinda fun.

EDIT:
Now I see they plan on putting in the rope tow from Denny's Way to the top, so you are right. THREE lift rides to do laps on Cyclone. Also answers my questions about the steepness of the tow rope, it won't be so bad coming that way. I thought they were putting this in the same path as the old cyclone lift, but that isn't the case.

Still think it could be a short term cheap solution while they work on longer term fixes in the background, but it makes less sense. It's nice to have a rope tow instead of hiking it, I suppose, but hardly seems worth even that investment if it is just a short term solution. And it is terrible as anything other than a short term solution.

 

[Dryheat]

The rope tow mfg website lists the specs as 985ft max length with max incline of 20 degrees

You're not going to be lapping much of anything let alone anything interesting.

This is nothing more than the lowest cost way to enable access to cyclone again.

 

[Dryheat]

Paging @Lift Blog - I'm curious how much life is left in sunrise's old yan lifts which I think they still have.

Is sunrise approaching another major capital project cliff with only money for another tow rope?

 

[cholla]

Still think it could be a short term cheap solution while they work on longer term fixes in the background, but it makes less sense. It's nice to have a rope tow instead of hiking it, I suppose, but hardly seems worth even that investment if it is just a short term solution. And it is terrible as anything other than a short term solution.

I hadn't skied Sunrise in ten years until I was there late last season. And I thought to myself, this mountain isn't half bad for being so close to Phoenix, but they really, really need to invest in lift and lodge infrastructure. As we all know, Snowbowl has become a whole new place since MCP bought it and started aggressively upgrading lifts. It would be amazing if the Tribe made that investment, or perhaps joint ventured with another company to do so. Imagine if they joint ventured with MCP and one pass would get you to Sunrise and Snowbowl......

 

[Dryheat]

Why would MCP do that?

AZSB captured most of the PHX local market share. Sunrise historically has been geographically closer for Tucson, but I'm betting they're ceding market share there. Neither mountain is much of a destination, so you're not growing the pie Though I'd argue Flagstaff is better than eastern AZ from a tourist perspective. So should MCP spend more, earn less, and get involved in tribal politics..... Talk about a stinker


This makes about as much sense as buying bill will mountain.... Which I still have no idea why they did. So there is precedent for confusing acquisitions at MCP.

 

[Lift Blog]

Paging @Lift Blog - I'm curious how much life is left in sunrise's old yan lifts which I think they still have.

Is sunrise approaching another major capital project cliff with only money for another tow rope?

Yan fixed grips are solid lifts that will last awhile longer. The Borvigs and Doppelmayrs there are also not that old by US ski resort standards.

 

[clong83]

I hadn't skied Sunrise in ten years until I was there late last season. And I thought to myself, this mountain isn't half bad for being so close to Phoenix, but they really, really need to invest in lift and lodge infrastructure. As we all know, Snowbowl has become a whole new place since MCP bought it and started aggressively upgrading lifts. It would be amazing if the Tribe made that investment, or perhaps joint ventured with another company to do so. Imagine if they joint ventured with MCP and one pass would get you to Sunrise and Snowbowl......

It’s been almost twenty for me. I used to like it when I lived in Tucson as a lower key and closer option than Snowbowl, but I’ve long since moved away to NM. As mentioned, it’s not really a good destination resort. It’s best bet is to monopolize Tucson skiers and try to compete with Snowbowl for Phoenix skiers.

Always kinda had a soft spot for that place and I hope they figure it out. It’s not a bad little mountain, just needs some proper investment.

 

[cholla]

You're absolutely right that MCP doesn't need any interest in Sunrise and the complications that would involve. But crazier things have happened. And I like the aggressive capital improvements that MCP seems to bring wherever they go. That's what Sunrise really needs.

 

[clong83]

You're absolutely right that MCP doesn't need any interest in Sunrise and the complications that would involve. But crazier things have happened. And I like the aggressive capital improvements that MCP seems to bring wherever they go. That's what Sunrise really needs.

*Offer not valid at Pajarito.

Paja is my current go to mountain (it's 20 minutes from my house), and MCP has done very little with it. Lifts are basically in disrepair and run until they break (which happens every winter), and they spend money patching them up and limping them along rather than making any lasting improvements. It's not a destination and never will be. It's just a local ski hill, and Coleman treats it as such. It's most useful for him as a feeder hill to get people to buy power passes and travel to his other mountains.

I actually think Coleman has been pretty smart about where he dumps his capital improvements money. Snowbowl was a fantastic investment and a great target for modernizing. Ditto for Purgatory. But he definitely doesn't just dump money into every property. Even if he did buy Sunrise, he might be content to limp it along and use it as a feeder hill for his other properties. It is, after all, a business.

 

[Lift Blog]

*Offer not valid at Pajarito.

Paja is my current go to mountain (it's 20 minutes from my house), and MCP has done very little with it. Lifts are basically in disrepair and run until they break (which happens every winter), and they spend money patching them up and limping them along rather than making any lasting improvements. It's not a destination and never will be. It's just a local ski hill, and Coleman treats it as such. It's most useful for him as a feeder hill to get people to buy power passes and travel to his other mountains.

I actually think Coleman has been pretty smart about where he dumps his capital improvements money. Snowbowl was a fantastic investment and a great target for modernizing. Ditto for Purgatory. But he definitely doesn't just dump money into every property. Even if he did buy Sunrise, he might be content to limp it along and use it as a feeder hill for his other properties. It is, after all, a business.

From the current Pajarito GM job posting:

"Pajarito Mountain Ski Area is seeking an experienced and hands-on general manager to lead a multi-year, multi million dollar capital project that will revitalize the ski area, stabilize the business and position it for future growth. Today, Pajarito is preparing for the installment of a permanent and reliable snowmaking supply pipeline, the largest and most impactful capital project in resort history. The general manager will be tasked with not only overseeing the successful completion of this important project (and additional capital initiatives that will bring on-mountain and base area improvements) but also leading the entire operation to the next level of guest experience."

 

[clong83]

From the current Pajarito GM job posting:

"Pajarito Mountain Ski Area is seeking an experienced and hands-on general manager to lead a multi-year, multi million dollar capital project that will revitalize the ski area, stabilize the business and position it for future growth. Today, Pajarito is preparing for the installment of a permanent and reliable snowmaking supply pipeline, the largest and most impactful capital project in resort history. The general manager will be tasked with not only overseeing the successful completion of this important project (and additional capital initiatives that will bring on-mountain and base area improvements) but also leading the entire operation to the next level of guest experience."

I had heard about that, and have heard no details. That ad is also gone from their website recently, although I think it might still be up other places.

Whatever they may have planned, they are keeping rather quiet about it for the moment. The pipeline up from the reservoir has been talked about for years and years, so it's one of those things that I will believe when I start to see some actual steps towards it. That said, hiring a GM to explicitly oversee such a project is definitely a concrete step. Here's hoping.

I asked a patroller friend up there what they knew about it, and he didn't have any insight, but said he'd ask when he goes up there to bike patrol this weekend. I asked him if the current GM Tom Long was stepping down, or if this is a new, parallel position to oversee the improvements, but he didn't know that either. I'll update if I hear anything and eat my words if it actually happens.

 

[Pajarito-bred]

The 21st century drought has been extremely challenging for AZ and NM ski areas, Only Taos, AZ Snowbowl, and Santa Fe Ski basin have managed ok, with higher elevations to capture those storms that do arrive.
Sandia Peak (near Albuquerque) is not even planning to open this coming season. Looks like yet another LaNina year in 2022-23, which means more-likely to be below-average snowfall for the southwest.

I've traveled the opposite direction as @clong83:
Grew up skiing Pajarito, (1970's) then college and work in Tucson (Skied mostly Sunrise and Mt Lemmon, when not venturing to NM or CO), until 1995, when I moved to Colorado. Haven't skied south of 4 corners since then.

It’s been almost twenty for me. I used to like it when I lived in Tucson as a lower key and closer option than Snowbowl, but I’ve long since moved away to NM. As mentioned, it’s not really a good destination resort. It’s best bet is to monopolize Tucson skiers and try to compete with Snowbowl for Phoenix skiers.

It's a long, twisty mountain-and-canyon drive Tucson to Sunrise (227 miles, 4 hrs 18 minutes-- That's Google's summer guess, without ski traffic, snowy roads, and in a modern car, not a gutless 1980's Toyota or Datsun) -- plus, other than the tacky (soon to be refurbished!) motel run by the tribe, its 45 minutes each way, every ski day from the nearest towns with lodging, Pinetop and Lakeside.

I'll attempt to refrain altogether from commenting on Sunrise's "Big" announcement, what a waste of marketing effort for a freakin' rope tow that means skiing past two neglected/abandoned 1980's chairlifts- long, mostly-flat lifts, that were huge improvements when the lifts and terrain were added.

I'll need some refreshment to finish this note:

*Offer not valid at Pajarito.

Paja is my current go to mountain (it's 20 minutes from my house), and MCP has done very little with it. Lifts are basically in disrepair and run until they break (which happens every winter), and they spend money patching them up and limping them along rather than making any lasting improvements. It's not a destination and never will be. It's just a local ski hill

I pulled out some old emails and letters between some of the old-timers (including my parents) from 2014 when the difficult decision was made by the ski club to transfer ski area ownership / management to MCP.
(MCP, Mountain Capital Partners, owns and/or manages 8 small/medium ski areas in CO, NM, and AZ, plus a lift-served mountain bike park in TX). They aren't about to venture within a million light-years of the Apache tribe's Sunrise ski area......

Not sure if this picture of Bob Thorn still hangs in the lodge, one of the key volunteers in the 1970's and 80's (reprinted from my book on the history of the LA ski club)


I don't know the exact details of the transaction, if the LA Ski club even still exists, so I have no critique of how realistic present dreams are for MCP to install fancy new snowmaking or new & upgraded lifts at Pajarito. Many many enthusiastic skiers volunteered for decades to build the ski club / ski area from a rope tows and T-bar in the 1960's, into a club-run /professionally managed ski area with 1440 vertical feet, 750 acres, with five chairlifts by the end of the 1990's when forest fires seemed to become more common than big snowstorms, and the challenges of running a ski area during several years of snow-drought became too great for a bunch of volunteers to handle, even for volunteers with access to explosives.

Would sure love to get back to NM this season, if it snows.....

 

[clong83]

The 21st century drought has been extremely challenging for AZ and NM ski areas, Only Taos, AZ Snowbowl, and Santa Fe Ski basin have managed ok, with higher elevations to capture those storms that do arrive.
Sandia Peak (near Albuquerque) is not even planning to open this coming season. Looks like yet another LaNina year in 2022-23, which means more-likely to be below-average snowfall for the southwest.

I've traveled the opposite direction as @clong83:
Grew up skiing Pajarito, (1970's) then college and work in Tucson (Skied mostly Sunrise and Mt Lemmon, when not venturing to NM or CO), until 1995, when I moved to Colorado. Haven't skied south of 4 corners since then.

It's a long, twisty mountain-and-canyon drive Tucson to Sunrise (227 miles, 4 hrs 18 minutes-- That's Google's summer guess, without ski traffic, snowy roads, and in a modern car, not a gutless 1980's Toyota or Datsun) -- plus, other than the tacky (soon to be refurbished!) motel run by the tribe, its 45 minutes each way, every ski day from the nearest towns with lodging, Pinetop and Lakeside.

I'll attempt to refrain altogether from commenting on Sunrise's "Big" announcement, what a waste of marketing effort for a freakin' rope tow that means skiing past two neglected/abandoned 1980's chairlifts- long, mostly-flat lifts, that were huge improvements when the lifts and terrain were added.

I'll need some refreshment to finish this note:
View attachment 177669


I pulled out some old emails and letters between some of the old-timers (including my parents) from 2014 when the difficult decision was made by the ski club to transfer ski area ownership / management to MCP.
(MCP, Mountain Capital Partners, owns and/or manages 8 small/medium ski areas in CO, NM, and AZ, plus a lift-served mountain bike park in TX). They aren't about to venture within a million light-years of the Apache tribe's Sunrise ski area......

Not sure if this picture of Bob Thorn still hangs in the lodge, one of the key volunteers in the 1970's and 80's (reprinted from my book on the history of the LA ski club)

View attachment 177671
I don't know the exact details of the transaction, if the LA Ski club even still exists, so I have no critique of how realistic present dreams are for MCP to install fancy new snowmaking or new & upgraded lifts at Pajarito. Many many enthusiastic skiers volunteered for decades to build the ski club / ski area from a rope tows and T-bar in the 1960's, into a club-run /professionally managed ski area with 1440 vertical feet, 750 acres, with five chairlifts by the end of the 1990's when forest fires seemed to become more common than big snowstorms, and the challenges of running a ski area during several years of snow-drought became too great for a bunch of volunteers to handle, even for volunteers with access to explosives.

Would sure love to get back to NM this season, if it snows.....

Ah, the Lemmon brings back memories. It was always iffy even way back when, but if the snow was decent you couldn‘t beat it for convenience.

All those old pictures (and the one of Niels Bohr skiing Sawyers Hill!) are still in the lodge at Paja, but the inside of the lodge has been closed save for bathroom usage the last two years. I have that same book you took that photo from, and that same beer glass too!

The ski club still exists, but it’s kind of a shell of its former self. That said, volunteers still keep the place going more or less. The bike trails are largely volunteer maintained and patrolled, MCP just runs the lifts in summer. Felled trees of which there are hundreds are often cleared and hauled off by volunteers. There is paid work going on too, but it wouldn‘t be nearly sufficient without the volunteers.

I hope the capital improvements actually happen. But the cynic in me thinks that probably Tom Long is retiring and they are just hiring a new GM and dangling the ever futuristic water pipeline project out there as a carrot to attract applicants. Fingers crossed that I am way off base. That is one thing that has changed a lot since the ski club days, the transparency. We went from everyone getting a say and debating improvement projects out in the open to everything happening behind closed doors. That change may be part of why I am more cynical about it, but I am thankful to Coleman for bailing Pajarito out in the first place. Without him, it would for sure be in a worse position.


EDIT:
And by the way, cheers!

It was before my time, but I also understand that the IRS pulling the tax exempt status back in the 90s was kind of a blow to the ski club. The IRS I guess frowned on the idea of a non-profit ski area. That was followed by the controversial Townsight lift, which promptly burned in a forest fire…

 

[New2]

Sunrise seems caught in a development trap of the sort pretty common in the developing world. Not a perfect parallel, but a lot of similarities.

It was overly-built, not always wisely, on aid money--federal grants led to ten brand new fixed grip lifts at Sunrise during the 70s and 80s, and that beautiful useless building at the top of Apache. Five fixed-grip lifts remain now, paired with a newer high-speed quad and soon a rope tow. They've never had any real collateral because the nature of their assets and the legal jurisdictions involved make repossession impractical. Capital expenditures, then, are all cash... and anything significant has to be approved by the tribal council. And those expenditures have to be weighed against other very real needs in a still-impoverished reservation (along with funding anti-Snowbowl activities or the many other tempting things to spend money on).

The ultimate decision-makers (the tribal council) frequently changes; but constants are that its members are friends, neighbors, and family members of many of the ski areas workers but are not particularly knowledgeable in administration nor sympathetic with management. So they're in this pattern of repeatedly hiring managers, letting them put together paper turnaround plans, then getting rid of the management team when they chastise the wrong person's cousin, or just directing funds to other priorities.

Meanwhile rising speed limits and beautiful smooth pavement ribbons on I-17 and I-10 have pointed skiers from Arizona's population centers ever more quickly toward Snowbowl. And while the weather over the past 20 years has been kinder to Sunrise than to Pajarito, it's still had a real adverse effect.

The most promising solution is probably to get someone who knows what they're doing (probably another ski operator or one of the wealthy tribes' investment corporation) to take on a 99-year lease that precludes the tribal council from intervening. The problem is in the pricing. Fair market value of the entire operation is probably pretty close to 0, and the council's going to have a very tough time accepting that.

 

[Core2]

Ski Apache has a lot of the same issues as Sunrise but the Mescalero Apaches still invest in the mountain and are going the summer operations route. I'd love for MCP to somehow take over Sunrise and try to turn it around. I think it could be profitable but at this point it would need a big money injection that may or may not ever be worth it.