Advice on ski purchase for beginner

[BobBeau]

Hello all. Took my first ski trip last year in December (2020) at 43 yrs old and was hooked right away. First day at Big Sky, Day 2 and 3 at Jackson hole. By the end of day 2, I had transitioned from wedge turns to parallel turns. Took another trip to Breck in February where I spent most of my time on greens. After finally learning the "Hockey Stop", I managed a blue at a cautious speed. After 40 years of water skiing & vacationing at the beach, i'm now kicking myself in the a$$ for not trying snow at an earlier age. I love it and plan to do it as often as I can (Hopefully, at least 20 days per season). I've booked a boot fitting for my next trip to Big Sky along with a lesson to work on carving and overall technique.

I'm about 5'9" and 215 lbs (athletic build). I will most likely stick to the frontside groomers in the West/Midwest (Colorado, Montana, Washington etc). Not to say that I won't travel East at some point. Most of the ski charts don't factor weight into the equation. Ski charts on different websites are vastly different. One website's chart will show a beginner length for my height at 164 cm and another site shows 164 cm is for an Intermediate skier. Spoke to a person on the phone at a ski shop and they recommended between 173 & 178 for my height and weight. I'm pretty lost at this point. Any recommendations or opinions are welcome.

Moving on to waist width. I don't necessarily want to be locked in to a frontside ski in case I want to venture off trail through the trees. Trying to find a sweet spot that will maintain edge grip on soft or hard packed and still allow me to venture off in a few inches of powder on occasion. (Nothing Back Country). Mostly everything I read is "Narrower waist width for beginners learning to carve". So what's considered an "All mountain ski" That's not too wide for shredding groomers and not too narrow for a few inches of powder through the trees? Also, i'd like a ski that I can grow into so i'm not buying a different pair of skis every season. Something I can ski with now and still be able to use as my confidence and skill level increase. I understand this is very subjective and opinions will differ. I've been looking at waist widths between 78 - 82mm. K2 Disruption, Volkl Deacon, Atomic Vantage, Elan Wingman etc.

I'm also dealing with the reality that it may be way too early to think about buying my own pair of skis. Boots are a definite and first on my list but would also like to invest in a pair of skis instead of dishing out on rentals.

Any and all feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Beau

 

[Jilly]

Yes to Boots first....Over at the Ski Diva's we like to say that you marry your boots, but date your skis.

Anything in 84-90mm range should be good. I don't have much experience with that range as I ski east and only front side carvers, tuned down race skis.

But I did try out the Brahma 82's before the world shut down....loved it for just what you're asking.

 

[tomahawkins]

I second @Jilly advice. Invest in good boots fit by a good boot fitter. And then try lots of stuff to see what you like and don't overthink it, rentals at first followed shortly thereafter by performance demos. Depending on how often you ski, the best ski for year one is probably not the best ski for year two, which is probably not the best ski for year 3. Good boots on the other hand can stay with you from beginner to advanced, maybe even expert.

40 years of waterskiing? You're going to do just fine.

 

[MikeHunt]

This site has a cross reference table with skier height and weight

How to Choose Ski Length: Making Sure you Get it Right | SKI Profiles

When picking a pair of skis, length is a crucial consideration, which is influenced by several factors. This post will show you how to choose ski length.

skiprofiles.com

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

I would say to begin your season with a rental- preferably from a shop that has a seasonal rental program and that will allow you to switch skis mid season as you improve. Start with a “western narrow” in the 76-82 waist range. At this point “brand “ doesn’t matter. Pair that with demo days. If it drops a bunch of powder, rent some fat skis for the day and have fun! At the end of the season, have a few demo days where you try specific all mountain skis to see what you like. Spring conditions are great for that because you get a variety of conditions throughout the day. Then you will have a better idea what you like in a ski and can buy during the end of season demo sales. Either way, enjoy the journey!

 

[anders_nor]

your in for some fun days/years now! my 43 year old friend started skiiing in end of january this year, he managed to get in 55 days or so

his only regret is not doing it sooner, but I have nagged him for decades to join me...

he got 172cm deacon 84's after he managed hockey stops and paralell skis, 0 issues with them and he never struggled , your about identical to his weight, and just a bit taller, so would probably work for you as well, your 100% the right height for demo skis btw, use that to your advantage!

hopefully you have some good friends, or access to an instructor, that will boost skill level way faster.

 

[BobBeau]

This site has a cross reference table with skier height and weight

How to Choose Ski Length: Making Sure you Get it Right | SKI Profiles

When picking a pair of skis, length is a crucial consideration, which is influenced by several factors. This post will show you how to choose ski length.

skiprofiles.com

I hadn't seen this one. Thank you for sharing.

 

[BobBeau]

your in for some fun days/years now! my 43 year old friend started skiiing in end of january this year, he managed to get in 55 days or so

his only regret is not doing it sooner, but I have nagged him for decades to join me...

he got 172cm deacon 84's after he managed hockey stops and paralell skis, 0 issues with them and he never struggled , your about identical to his weight, and just a bit taller, so would probably work for you as well, your 100% the right height for demo skis btw, use that to your advantage!

hopefully you have some good friends, or access to an instructor, that will boost skill level way faster.

Great info info, thank you! Where did he ski those 84's? I looked at the 84's and watched a few videos saying they were geared more toward the advanced skier... so I didn't give them much thought after that. I think you're right about the Demo skis; I'll give that a try in December.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

May I suggest sticking with one brand and demo the whole range of underfoot sizes in that one brand?

I'll be doing this myself this season. First time I'll be demoing after using rentals for the past 3 years.

My plan is to stick with Volkl, reason being a shop in my resort has a bunch of Volkl models in 70, 76, 80, 84, 88, and 96 underfoot to learn what underfoot size I like. Between the different underfoot sizes, I'll try to keep the length as similar as possible to the reccomended ski length for my height, weight, and ability.

Sticking to one brand makes it more likely to have a similar "house feel" for all the skis and you can eliminate variations in demoing different underfoot sizes with different brands. Although this statement is not entirely 100% infallible as different models within the same brand have different variations to feel and terrain suitability and materials of the ski. But at least, you can get as close to testing different underfoot sizes "with all things being equal".

There are now models with different underfoot sizes for the same model like the Blizzard Brahma which comes in 82 underfoot and 88 underfoot. That would be even more ideal for underfoot demoing purposes.

 

[Marker]

I started skiing at 50 at 6'6", 230 lb. My first pair were 83, which I sold after 2 years to buy more advanced skis. I could easily overload those skis once I progressed to an intermediate skiing steep blues and easy blacks, but not all 83 are created equal. Weight is a real factor as you are aware. I agree to stay are narrow as you can with a ski with backbone. Once you master that, you can start building a quiver with a wider ski for deeper snow.

I also sold my first boots at the same time as my skis because they were one size too big, but even if they were properly snug, they were not stiff enough for my weight (100's). I transitioned to 130's and suspect you may have a similar problem if you are put in snug, but softer boots to learn in.

 

[BobBeau]

May I suggest sticking with one brand and demo the whole range of underfoot sizes in that one brand?

I'll be doing this myself this season. First time I'll be demoing after using rentals for the past 3 years.

My plan is to stick with Völkl, reason being a shop in my resort has a bunch of Völkl models in 70, 76, 80, 84, 88, and 96 underfoot to learn what underfoot size I like. Between the different underfoot sizes, I'll try to keep the length as similar as possible to the reccomended ski length for my height, weight, and ability.

Sticking to one brand makes it more likely to have a similar "house feel" for all the skis and you can eliminate variations in demoing different underfoot sizes with different brands. Although this statement is not entirely 100% infallible as different models within the same brand have different variations to feel and terrain suitability and materials of the ski. But at least, you can get as close to testing different underfoot sizes "with all things being equal".

There are now models with different underfoot sizes for the same model like the Blizzard Brahma which comes in 82 underfoot and 88 underfoot. That would be even more ideal for underfoot demoing purposes.

I've been looking hard at the Volkl line and even harder at the Elan Wingman with their Amphibio profile. Like someone above mentioned, "Brand doesn't really matter" and I completely agree. Pick what you ski well with and have fun, right? I do like your suggestion of sticking with one brand and trying a range of widths within the brand. Thanks for the info

 

[BobBeau]

I started skiing at 50 at 6'6", 230 lb. My first pair were 83, which I sold after 2 years to buy more advanced skis. I could easily overload those skis once I progressed to an intermediate skiing steep blues and easy blacks, but not all 83 are created equal. Weight is a real factor as you are aware. I agree to stay are narrow as you can with a ski with backbone. Once you master that, you can start building a quiver with a wider ski for deeper snow.

I also sold my first boots at the same time as my skis because they were one size too big, but even if they were properly snug, they were not stiff enough for my weight (100's). I transitioned to 130's and suspect you may have a similar problem if you are put in snug, but softer boots to learn in.

I figured boots would be tricky. My last rental boot was 30.5 with an 80 flex and 104 last. Probably the most comfortable boot I've worn but no doubt they were too big. I didn't want to waist time going back and forth to ski shop to change out boots like i had done on the previous trip so I stuck with them. Not the best decision but I wasn't doing any hard charging.

I've been looking at boots that have adjustable flex. I think this may eliminate having to buy another pair down the line. 20% Flex adjustment sounds perfect. A 110 would range from around 90 to 130.

 

[dbostedo]

I've been looking at boots that have adjustable flex.

I'm not sure what you're looking at, but a lot of folks find that those features are pretty worthless and don't really make the difference claimed (like removing the studs in Lange boots, although I have done that myself). I would say consider the regular/rated flex of the boot you buy, and don't worry about whether or not you can change it. (And know that there is no standard for flexes - one brand's 130 may equal another brand's 110.)

Most importantly, listen to a good bootfitter on what boot fits your foot best and is best for you, whether it has adjustments or not.

 

[Marker]

I figured boots would be tricky. My last rental boot was 30.5 with an 80 flex and 104 last. Probably the most comfortable boot I've worn but no doubt they were too big. I didn't want to waist time going back and forth to ski shop to change out boots like i had done on the previous trip so I stuck with them. Not the best decision but I wasn't doing any hard charging.

I've been looking at boots that have adjustable flex. I think this may eliminate having to buy another pair down the line. 20% Flex adjustment sounds perfect. A 110 would range from around 90 to 130.

Rentals started me in a 33.5 for a size 14 narrow foot, but I went back over time because my foot was swimming and got the size down to 31.5 where I bought my 100s. Still too big and too soft. I now ski in a 30.5 97 last boot (Lange RS 130). I have never (intentionally) played around with removing the bolts to soften the flex. They have fallen out accidentally when I noticed something didn't feel right. Used Loctite when I put in the new bolts.

 

[KingGrump]

I figured boots would be tricky. My last rental boot was 30.5 with an 80 flex and 104 last. Probably the most comfortable boot I've worn

Your use of the word "comfortable" is a dead give away the boots were probably two or more sizes too big. Especially coming from a new skier. Don't get me wrong, boots should be comfortable but seldom straight out of the box or off the shelf. They should be comfortable after a good boot fitter have gone over it.

Tricky? You have no clue how tricky. But @dbostedo posted the answer for that.

Most importantly, listen to a good bootfitter on what boot fits your foot best and is best for you

BTW, get a decent foot bed while getting your boots fitted.

 

[Ogg]

You're relatively heavy for your height and likely stronger than average. A good fitter will probably put you in a stiffer boot than you're thinking you need. For skis I wouldn't get too hung up on demoing yet. You really don't have enough of a frame of reference to compare different skis. You seem to have narrowed it down so I'd just go with whatever you can get the best deal on. After another season or two you'll want to upgrade or add to the quiver anyway.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Body, boot and ski should be an ecosystem, an integrity of flexibility, rigidity, fore and aft and torsional stiffness.

Do you want to learn to ski or do you want a ski which will let you ski easily in the manner which you ski now? If the latter, I can't and don't want to help you.

Don't think of skis as a "noun."

Think of skis as a "verb."

Focus on the action you want to learn to put into your skis and the reaction you want to learn develop from them.

This is what you need to learn:

· Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis

· Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski

· Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation

· Control the skis rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body

· Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction

The Skills Concept & Skiing Fundamentals By Jonathan Ballou – PSIA-RM

www.psia-rm.org

IMHO, you want a boot/ski combination which will allow you to learn the above PSIA Five Fundamentals. Even if the set up is a little more difficult for you to manage at first, you want crisp feedback when you do a movement right and when you do it wrong.

Beginners learn to ski in the back seat. Intermediates perfect it.

Because it is counter intuitive to lean forward. Because it is scary.

IMHO, you want skis to assist you in learning to use the front of the ski to bite into a turn as early in your ski career as possible.

Which means you want a torsionaly stiff hourglass shaped ski. It must also be relatively stiff fore aft so that when you pressure the tip, the tip does not wash out and slip downhill out from under you and scare you out of learning to move your weight forward to bite the tip edge at the beginning of the turn.

80-90mm hourglass shaped All Mountain ski is good. A little tip and tail rocker is good. A totally rockered ski is a mistake. A ski with no hour glass shape is a mistake. A too narrow hourglass shaped carving focused ski is a mistake. For higher level skiers all of these design-single-emphasis skis have their purpose and place but not for learning the Five Fundamentals. You want an "all around" ski which will do all of the Five Fundamentals rather than a ski which is focused on perfecting one technique one reaction.

Boots which allow you to stand up straight without your toe tips hurting are too long. Your toes should pull back when your knees are slightly bent in the skiing position. Overly soft boots won't transmit your weight to the tip of the ski. Instead soft boots are just a floppy ankle hinge allowing you to close your ankle joint without affecting tip pressure which will not give you the intended reaction from the tip of the ski. Too stiff of a boot at your level is also a fail because after you pressure forward, the boot will kick you into the back seat.

Buy the boot/ski ecosystem which will demand a moderate amount of more ability than you have now.

Pick an EXCELLENT boot fitter and have them select the ENTIRE ecosystem for you.

I really like Tom Gellie's bigpictureskiing.com series of instructional videos so that you learn what, when, where and why your goals for input and reaction are because there are many things to efficient skiing which are counterintuitive to what we would learn on our own without having good instruction with defined goals which will result in crisp punishing or rewarding feedback you when you have done it wrong or right.

Welcome to the sport. We have been waiting for you.

 

[cosmoliu]

@Tim Hodgson really touched on what I wanted to comment on in this thread- get good instruction early on. Your OP makes it obvious that you've done a ton of research in your short time with this sport. Good on you! I got hooked every bit as badly as you did my first long weekend out- I went directly from the bunny hill to buy my first pair of boots at the end of my first day. I knew I liked the sport and I wanted to get as good at it as soon as possible. To that end- I realized that lessons would be key. Like Tim said, there are many moves that unlock higher end skills which simply aren't intuitive. It is MUCH easier to learn good habits from the get-go than to unlearn bad habits. Take lots of lessons. I would say that in my first 50 days on skis, I probably took 40 days of lessons. I highly recommend that course of action.

 

[BobBeau]

@Tim Hodgson really touched on what I wanted to comment on in this thread- get good instruction early on. Your OP makes it obvious that you've done a ton of research in your short time with this sport. Good on you! I got hooked every bit as badly as you did my first long weekend out- I went directly from the bunny hill to buy my first pair of boots at the end of my first day. I knew I liked the sport and I wanted to get as good at it as soon as possible. To that end- I realized that lessons would be key. Like Tim said, there are many moves that unlock higher end skills which simply aren't intuitive. It is MUCH easier to learn good habits from the get-go than to unlearn bad habits. Take lots of lessons. I would say that in my first 50 days on skis, I probably took 40 days of lessons. I highly recommend that course of action.

40 days of lessons would cost me nearly $40 grand . I didn't realize a full day private lesson was so expensive. My initial response to a lesson was, "I'll just youtube some 'How to' ski videos and enjoy my time on the slope". I quickly came to the realization that in order to enjoy my time on the slope, I should first get a lesson. In your opinion, should I break the lessons up? I was going to get 1 full day lesson. I have a 5 day trip planned and was going to get a lesson our first ski day. Now I'm leaning more towards getting 2 or 3 half day lessons, that way I can practice what I've learned the second half of the day. Thoughts?

 

[anders_nor]

Do you have some actually good (not they think they are good) skiiing buddies? if so bribe them to help.