Altering ski behavior through tuning?

[motogreg]

Just a hypothetical here, say a low intermediate only had access to FIS slalom skis, could you tune them to, say, a 1.4/2 to mellow them out some? Obviously the "right" answer is to get a different ski, but just for the sake of argument....

 

[François Pugh]

No. 1:3 is good to go for that skier. However, I would not tune them to 0.5:3 for that skier; 0.5 base takes some getting used to.

 

[Philpug]

Yes, but why would he want to? It would nueter the ski and hinder the growth of the skier.

 

[Dave Marshak]

... why would he want to? It would nueter the ski and hinder the growth of the skier.

A World Cup race tune won't help a beginner skier. You need real skills to work a real slalom ski. Race skis react quickly to every driver input. Beginners need skis that ignore mistakes and react as slowly as learners do.
I'm skeptical that there's some critical diffence in tunes for recreational skis, and I'm not even sure we are talking about the correct parameters. What's the important variable? Is it the angle of the base edge or the position of the edge above the plane if the base? The diffence between 1 degree and .5 degrees on a 2mm wide bevel is about .02 mm, or less than a himan hair. I don't have any instruments that can even measure that. But what if the bevel shrinks to 1 mm because the side edge is reduced? What if the bevel extends a couple of mm into the base? No one talks about the effect of those things.
OTOH confirmation bias is a real thing.

dm

 

[ScottB]

I think you can change the skis behavior within a range. And it greatly depends on if you are talking soft snow or hard snow. Remember, edges and tuning only make a significant difference on hard snow. Soft snow you are skiing the shape of the ski. Anyway, on hard snow you could make the ski less grabby and edgy. I agree with Francois comment about use an all around tune bevels, my numbers would be 1/2, but that's splitting hairs. The other thing to do is detune the tips and tails a little past the contact point to do a little neutering, and lastly don't make them razor sharp.

Phil has a valid point, but you might want to "mellow them a bit" if you are overwhelmed. You will still be on a race ski, but you can mellow them a bit if you really want to, I think.

 

[tromano]

I would think a low intermediate would like the ski better when it felt more locked in, 1/3 like was suggested above.

 

[cantunamunch]

I would think a low intermediate would like the ski better when it felt more locked in, 1/3 like was suggested above.

Depends on what assumptions we're making and what the word 'like' comprises. For example,

If the low intermediate has a problem with controlling front/back pressure on the ski, having the 1/3 edge tip to tail could be grabby tipped with their forward pressure too high, and unreleasable with their weight back.

If the low intermediate heel pushes to edge but has their weight consistently back, then sure, 1/3 might be just right for them - they never use the whole ski.

If the low intermediate has an A-framing problem or other excess loading of the inside edges, then they might be OK with the 1/3 but it would be a too-grabby disincentive for committing to the outside ski.

If the low intermediate has a lateral balance problem ... I could see it going either way depending on the ski dimensions and ski flex.

 

[Steve]

First off that is going to be a stiff ski, so regardless of the tune unless the skier in question is quite heavy they will not be able to bend it, therefore it won't self-steer for them, they will have to twist it to turn.

With that in mind, if the base bevel is small as they twist it they will have to be sure it's very flat or the edge will bite when they don't want it to. Therefore a larger base bevel and even some detuning might be advised.

Keeping a ski perfectly flat so the edges don't engage is an advanced skill (see pivot slips.)

 

[Bad Bob]

If you want to mellow out the ski a little you might try dulling the edges at the first 6" of the tips and the last 6" of the tails. They would be more mellow to engage and the tails would release from a turn a bit easier.
If you do this don't get carried away with the file. It will take some of the edge, life span, off of the skis.

 

[tromano]

Depends on what assumptions we're making and what the word 'like' comprises. For example,

If the low intermediate has a problem with controlling front/back pressure on the ski, having the 1/3 edge tip to tail could be grabby tipped with their forward pressure too high, and unreleasable with their weight back.

If the low intermediate heel pushes to edge but has their weight consistently back, then sure, 1/3 might be just right for them - they never use the whole ski.

If the low intermediate has an A-framing problem or other excess loading of the inside edges, then they might be OK with the 1/3 but it would be a too-grabby disincentive for committing to the outside ski.

If the low intermediate has a lateral balance problem ... I could see it going either way depending on the ski dimensions and ski flex.

This was as opposed to a race sl that was tuned such that it never really could reward proper balance and edging when it happens. If you are saying that the person has ingrained bad balance and never edges the skis then its moot.

No real discussion of the purpose of why you are putting them on this ski with this tune.

I had probably thought that one purpose of putting a low intermed on a sl ski could be to help them get good feedback from the ski and promote edging and good balance. If the agenda was just a nice enjoyable ski that is easy to use on gentle groomers, than another ski would probably be better.

 

[cantunamunch]

This was as opposed to a race sl that was tuned such that it never really could reward proper balance and edging when it happens. If you are saying that the person has ingrained bad balance and never edges the skis then its moot.

Not quite where I was going - my point was more that, depending on the starting assumptions of what balance issues the skier might have, and depending on the process of how they edge the ski, the answer set diverges strongly. The answer set is somewhat chaotic, in the mathsy butterfly wings -> (drought OR hurricane) sense. Chaotic answer sets are one of the places where consensus fails and specifics rule.

No real discussion of the purpose of why you are putting them on this ski with this tune.

That's right, there isn't. I looked at OP's post several times, and it's phrased as a pure hypothetical. We're not even allowed to firmly assume that the skier is stuck at a club snowfield somewhere and the SL ski is the only piece of equipment available. There may be purpose to it, or there may not be, we don't know.

I had probably thought that one purpose of putting a low intermed on a sl ski could be to help them get good feedback from the ski and promote edging and good balance. If the agenda was just a nice enjoyable ski that is easy to use on gentle groomers, than another ski would probably be better.

If you look at my last sentence again, I actually partly agreed with you. A properly tuned SL ski can be a likeable (crutch or tool you decide) to an intermediate with lateral balance problems - because it offers a turning force to balance against almost immediately upon engagement, at slower speeds than a GS, with a laterally deeper sweet spot. Could be fun, could be well liked.

 

[LiquidFeet]

A World Cup race tune won't help a beginner skier. You need real skills to work a real slalom ski. Race skis react quickly to every driver input. Beginners need skis that ignore mistakes and react as slowly as learners do.....

This. Put this lower intermediate on another ski. This person has too much to learn to waste time fighting a torsionally stiff ski that will react, no matter what the tune is, to poor fore-aft and lateral balance, which are after all the basic issues that make a skier lower intermediate.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....A properly tuned SL ski can be a likeable (crutch or tool you decide) to an intermediate with lateral balance problems - because it offers a turning force almost immediately upon engagement, at slower speeds than a GS, with a laterally deeper sweet spot. Could be fun, could be well liked.

I'm willing to think positively about this ... if you say you're not relying on armchair thinking but on personal experience. Otherwise, I'm skeptical. Most lower intermediates have multiple gaps in their skillset. I know this from experience. A quickly reacting ski will trigger an exaggeration of who-knows-what dysfunctional movement pattern born on dryground, so the gripping and turning ski will end up throwing them down. It may be quite difficult for such a skier to learn through trial and error, or instruction, how to fix this, since multiple things will be going wrong in their movements.

Disclaimer: When I postulate how such a skier will do on an FIS SL, I am musing from my armchair. But these things I know. Such skis are STIFF. Getting and keeping them flat to rotate them is a precision skill, as @Steve pointed out upthread. A lower intermediate will not be able to do this. Tipping them to all kinds of edge angles will inevitably happen, and they will react quickly. The skier will not be able to control the edge angle. The skier may be leaning in to do this, and initiating the turn with shoulder rotation, and staying square to the ski as it turns. The skier will almost definitely be aft. Fixing all those will take time, and the skier will need a compliant ski to work on those things. This I know from teaching experience.

Here's another thing about such skis. I once unknowingly skied on an FIS SL for a year that I bought used. I loved this ski. Later I found out that it was tuned 2/2. Given how well it behaved, I thought it had a 0.5/4 on it. I had a 1/3 put on it anyway. Its torsional stiffness was by far the most important determining factor in how it behaved.

 

[Philpug]

I think some of the people replying to this thread are forgetting what it's like to be a "low intermediate".

 

[cantunamunch]

I'm willing to think positively about this ... if you say you're not relying on armchair thinking but on personal experience. Otherwise, I'm skeptical.

I do have experience with the issue, but please ignore that for the moment.

Most lower intermediates have multiple gaps in their skillset.

Absolutely. Completely agreed.

A quickly reacting ski will trigger an exaggeration of who-knows-what dysfunctional movement pattern born on dryground, so the gripping and turning ski will end up throwing them down.

Change "will" to 'can' here and I don't disagree.

But the other thing that can exaggerate dysfunction is lack of feedback - the skier doesn't know where to stack and doesn't trust their own balance on one foot.

Giving the skier a reliable, strong feedback sensation to stack against can be a huge security blanket.

(Denise Mcluggage talked about this in The Centered Skier and I am tempted to steal her analogy of the learning pilot who needs to be in a banking turn in order to trust their airplane and not get into a death wobble with uncontrolled inputs).

Practically speaking we saw this in the early 00s to 05 - when GSy first-gen and second gen shapes gave way to All-Mountain Slalom. For a specific instance, intermediate skiers moving from long-sidecut skis like the Atomic 9'22, 9'20, 9'18 and 8'18 that required patience and balance and committing to one foot for a longer interval, showed very good progress when moving to a shorter sidecut SL ski like the Atomic 9'11, 9'12 and 9'16.

 

[James]

1 base, 2 or 3 side would be fine.
If that’s the “only” choice, why not? The extra lift of a plate won’t help matters.
Most people learning before shaped skis survived far worse. Though straight skis do a wedge better.

Edit/ Too stiff and they slide it more. Not a big deal. Torsional stiffness is really the difference. If it was perfectly torsionally stiff, it would take a long time to release. Lower level skis give up the front edge engagement very early.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....(Denise Mcluggage talked about this in The Centered Skier and I am tempted to steal her analogy of the learning pilot who needs to be in a banking turn in order to trust their airplane and not get into a death wobble with uncontrolled inputs)....

Great book, and a solid complement to Gallwey's Inner Skiing. I haven't looked at either book in a long time, but I loved them when I read them. People in the 70s were infatuated with Eastern philosophies and spiritualism. Both books go there, embracing the belief that all "Truth" is stored inside us. We just need to find a way to release it.

I am not so sure about that after teaching art, where this belief persists, for my whole professional life. The same goes for skiing.

That said, I like the banking pilot analogy.

 

[tromano]

Not quite where I was going - my point was more that, depending on the starting assumptions of what balance issues the skier might have, and depending on the process of how they edge the ski, the answer set diverges strongly. The answer set is somewhat chaotic, in the mathsy butterfly wings -> (drought OR hurricane) sense. Chaotic answer sets are one of the places where consensus fails and specifics rule.



That's right, there isn't. I looked at OP's post several times, and it's phrased as a pure hypothetical. We're not even allowed to firmly assume that the skier is stuck at a club snowfield somewhere and the SL ski is the only piece of equipment available. There may be purpose to it, or there may not be, we don't know.



If you look at my last sentence again, I actually partly agreed with you. A properly tuned SL ski can be a likeable (crutch or tool you decide) to an intermediate with lateral balance problems - because it offers a turning force to balance against almost immediately upon engagement, at slower speeds than a GS, with a laterally deeper sweet spot. Could be fun, could be well liked.

Just having a nice chat.

I will say that these old cap very soft flexing SL skis (not FIS) are some of the easiest and most fun and easy for doing drills going as slow as possible. They were Madeline's now we share them and they come out each November as a tool (or crutch) to get balance dialed in when we are getting back to skiing. And they are also good at speeds that a low intermediate might enjoy. Think skiing with little kids. I think the tune is 1/3. The soft plate makes them feel like a running shoe.

 

[cantunamunch]

I am not so sure about that after teaching art, where this belief persists, for my whole professional life. The same goes for skiing.

IMO, at some point, 'releasing your inner Truth' just means "feel free to make the transition to unconscious competence instead of insisting on doing it by learned recipe".

The ones for whom it worked at that level just forgot what it was like to not have massive training. To put a weird twist on @Philpug's point

 

[James]

Great book, and a solid complement to Gallwey's Inner Skiing. I haven't looked at either book in a long time, but I loved them when I read them. People in the 70s were infatuated with Eastern philosophies and spiritualism. Both books go there, embracing the belief that all "Truth" is stored inside us. We just need to find a way to release it.

I am not so sure about that after teaching art, where this belief persists, for my whole professional life. The same goes for skiing.

It’s a bit like the idea if you read Richard Feynman you’ll become a great physicist. It might help in thinking though.
A bit hard to imagine a ski school making a program like that today. Though, if you managed the expectations, it could be done. More about the experience of learning.
Haven’t read the McCluggage in a long time. Very repetitive as I recall.