• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Aspen Skiing Co clamping down on underground instructors

Status
Not open for further replies.

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,650
Location
PNW aka SEA
I take it you have some independence. I wonder if most instructors—especially at larger resorts like Vail, where I worked before the bankruptcy—would be free to experiment or teach alternative methodologies like PMTS or to question PSIA training without pushback. Is it not true that practically all resorts closely align with PSIA (and NSAA)?

PSIA has historically purchased its teaching systems directly from Vail, rather than developing them organically. Vail's 1996 10K filing states this explicitly, and it suggests a conflict of interest raising questions about whose priorities PSIA really serves. When I earned my L3 in the mid-1990s, some of the changes forced on candidates—such as the "customer service model" as it was then called—in fact fostered questions that were mostly ignored. We learned what we were told to learn, or we didn't pass.

So I guess it's fair to say that for me, like you, PSIA has never dictated what to teach. It didn't have to.

Among other things, over my lifetime I've worked in education, food, aviation, music and law. None of these endeavors exclude free agency. Quite the contrary: competition is the rule. Furthermore, each has one or more independent organizations that support their respective employees and professionals. They collectively advocate for their members through union representation, advertising, and published materials that are freely available to a wide constituency...and much more. Buyers and sellers alike draw upon the widest possible range of creativity and innovation in the marketplace of ideas, and are correspondingly rewarded.

(Sounds corny I know, but that's what America is all about.)

PSIA in the 90's is now 30 years ago. I'd guess it's a very very different organization at this point in history.

During that same time period, I was very involved with the TAJ (telemark assoc of Japan) and had several friends involved in SAJ (ski assoc of Japan). Both organizations have changed a lot since then, and largely for the better.

30 years is a long time in the rearview mirror, and the entire instruction industry has benefitted hugely from greater contact (personal, social media, youtube.com, etc....) among peer groups in far flung places. I use several Japanese skiers as well as European skiers (CH, ITA, etc...) for examples of great skiing in our fall movement analysis sessions, PSIA has never discourages me from doing so. If I can outline the what, how, and why of what I'm doing, I feel I can account (and be accountable) for what I'm thinking and sharing.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,995
I'm not giving a legal opinion. You're not paying me enough for that.
Hah! Touché.


You seem to think that you have some right to use others' property. I can walk around the mall anytime, but if I set up a table to sell watches I'd expect to either pay rent or be evicted. So called "independent " ski instruction is no different.
You seem to think your analogies are written law, or else not subject to change. Fair enough.
 

snowtravel

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 16, 2024
Posts
74
Location
Left coast
PSIA in the 90's is now 30 years ago. I'd guess it's a very very different organization at this point in history.

During that same time period, I was very involved with the TAJ (telemark assoc of Japan) and had several friends involved in SAJ (ski assoc of Japan). Both organizations have changed a lot since then, and largely for the better.

30 years is a long time in the rearview mirror, and the entire instruction industry has benefitted hugely from greater contact (personal, social media, youtube.com, etc....) among peer groups in far flung places. I use several Japanese skiers as well as European skiers (CH, ITA, etc...) for examples of great skiing in our fall movement analysis sessions, PSIA has never discourages me from doing so. If I can outline the what, how, and why of what I'm doing, I feel I can account (and be accountable) for what I'm thinking and sharing.
In context, if this is what economic freedom feels like, I'm truly happy for you.

From my perspective, the main thing that's changed is market power. Vail in particular now dominates much of the overall ski industry. It also runs effective monopolies at each of its properties across every single aspect of its multiple sub-markets. (The famous Vail "total experience.")

Also, I've examined PSIA's training materials as recently as last week, and while skiing observe classes all the time. Plus I still have older materials dating from the 80s to around 2015. PSIA methods and techniques have changed since the mid-2010s, perhaps in minor ways but not fundamentally.

Other things have changed a lot. For instance, we used to be able to free-ski in our uniforms. Wages and benefits relative to costs of living have been sort of a disaster (that's a problem for all winter employees of course). By the time I left this "profession," I was able to teach as I pleased (and was rewarded for it), but I wasn't ever really free of the ski school or PSIA.

Most importantly though, the fundamental employer-employee relationships and conflicts of interest persist.

(I could add BTW that over several recent seasons I also participated in the Forest Service's "Ski with a Ranger" program as a volunteer ranger, working cooperatively with both FS and Vail: all-in-all, a fair sense of the ski industry's pulse.)
 
Last edited:

snowtravel

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 16, 2024
Posts
74
Location
Left coast
PSIA in the 90's is now 30 years ago. I'd guess it's a very very different organization at this point in history.

During that same time period, I was very involved with the TAJ (telemark assoc of Japan) and had several friends involved in SAJ (ski assoc of Japan). Both organizations have changed a lot since then, and largely for the better.

30 years is a long time in the rearview mirror, and the entire instruction industry has benefitted hugely from greater contact (personal, social media, youtube.com, etc....) among peer groups in far flung places. I use several Japanese skiers as well as European skiers (CH, ITA, etc...) for examples of great skiing in our fall movement analysis sessions, PSIA has never discourages me from doing so. If I can outline the what, how, and why of what I'm doing, I feel I can account (and be accountable) for what I'm thinking and sharing.
I almost forgot: in the old PSIA, members elected the board.

Today, the board elects the board.

(Yes indeed, it's a different organization.)
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
2,641
Location
Beaverton OR USA
That's a red herring. USFS doesn't own the lifts or buildings, and what "independent" instructors are really asking for is the free use of those facilities, without the permission of the owner. There are over 100 land grant colleges on land donated by the federal government, and no one believes they should allow independent instructors to teach anything there. Why is that different?

There is a real monopoly issue in the ski industry and more importantly in the entire economy as well, but expecting the USFS to require permit holders to change business practices that are followed almost universally in North America on both private and USFS lands is a waste of energy.

dm

I don't think any of the proponents for independent ski instructors is asking for the instructors or students to be allowed to ski for free. They just want to be able to use the lifts, ski the runs, boot up in the lodge -- just like every other skier who paid for a lift ticket.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,650
Location
PNW aka SEA
I don't think any of the proponents for independent ski instructors is asking for the instructors or students to be allowed to ski for free. They just want to be able to use the lifts, ski the runs, boot up in the lodge -- just like every other skier who paid for a lift ticket.

Yep. Instructors would buy their passes, and of course pass that along in their lesson pricing.
 

snowtravel

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 16, 2024
Posts
74
Location
Left coast
I almost forgot: in the old PSIA, members elected the board.

Today, the board elects the board.

(Yes indeed, it's a different organization.)
I need to modify/add some detail here:

As to the PSIA Board of Directors—really, the ASEA d/b/a PSIA-AASI—I'm continuing to research the changes in procedures. It's been about 10 years since I last looked at these issues: does anyone know of a Board member with full voting rights who was not in ski area management too?

The original PSIA bylaws mandated annual member meetings to be held between March and December each year, providing a platform for nationwide membership to gather, discuss, and vote on association matters. Contrary to these bylaws and potentially violating Colorado law, the American Snowsports Education Association (ASEA), the current governing body, only holds meetings at the discretion of the Board of Directors. These association meetings have become infrequent or non-existent.

Under the original PSIA system, higher-certified members (Full Certs or Level III) had double the voting power of lower-certified members (Associates or Level II), while entry-level members (Apprentices or Level I) had no voting rights. This arrangement empowered the largely full-time, career ski teachers who invested significant time and resources to achieve the highest certification and formed the core of the professional ski teaching community.

These changes have centralized power within the PSIA/ASEA, diminishing the influence of grassroots members and shifting the organization's focus away from the interests of career ski instructors, marking a departure from PSIA's original spirit and intent.
 

snowtravel

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 16, 2024
Posts
74
Location
Left coast
Likely as directed by NSAA.
I don't want to misstate this...perusing my notes about the by-laws existing 10 years ago, that may indeed have been true. However, I need to revisit not only the by-laws but probably corporate resolutions etc.

Feedback on this issue welcome.

To flesh this out a bit, last time I checked, ASEA hadn't in fact "merged" PSIA and AASI...rather, the original Minnesota PSIA incorporated in 1961 was abandoned amid an unusual lack of transparency. After all, you'd think ASEA would be proud of merging ski and snowboard teaching into one member-focused association.

This much is clear: what we have now is an entirely new nonprofit incorporated in Colorado, not Minn.

(The changes in governance associated with this purported merger raises ethical, legal and other questions.)
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister
Moderator
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Posts
18,395
Location
75% Virginia, 25% Colorado
As a non-instructor, I find the descriptions of how PSIA and the NSAA really work interesting.

But I'm still not seeing anything that explains why ski resorts should ever be forced to allow independent instructors. The school/university example resonates with me. If I think a university course is too expensive, and I want to not pay their cost, but instead go with an independent teacher, should the university be forced to rent that teacher a classroom?

That seems like a pretty relevant analogy to me... why is it not? (Assuming we're talk about a ski resort on private land... I do understand the potential difference with regard to public lands. Although as pointed out earlier, many universities are essentially on public lands too.)
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister
Moderator
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Posts
18,395
Location
75% Virginia, 25% Colorado
Why should Microsoft have been forced to unbundle Internet Explorer with Windows?

Because we have anti-trust laws
If that's in response to me, I don't find it very compelling. The ski resorts themselves compete with each other (and no, Vail doesn't own that many of them yet to be similar to Microsoft). There is/was only one Microsoft and they were/are in danger of a much more traditional monopoly and potential anti-competitive practice. If Vail owned the same percentage of resorts, as the market dominance Microsoft had, it would be more similar.

The other difference is that the market had already established the web browser as NOT part of Microsoft Windows, but Microsoft had the leverage to start including it and squash competition. Again very different than asking existing singular ski resorts to open up to independent instructors.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,995
The ski resorts themselves compete with each other
Someone took that idea up in one of these threads and made a compelling argument that they do not.
If we take the tie in of Psia with ski area management, it gets murky. Where ski areas give themselves an out is in not requiring psia certs or membership. Though some might.
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister
Moderator
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Posts
18,395
Location
75% Virginia, 25% Colorado
Someone took that idea up in one of these threads and made a compelling argument that they do not.
If we take the tie in of Psia with ski area management, it gets murky. Where ski areas give themselves an out is in not requiring psia certs or membership. Though some might.
I don't buy that they don't compete with each other in a general sense... but I do think the point about more local monopolies for destination skiers. I.e. it's a barrier, in that you're not going to a competing resort for a lesson when you travel to one. The PSIA thing is interesting. But unless it's required it's a non-issue. And even if it IS required and independent instructors could get certified, it's a non-issue.

It still comes down to what is a separate activity/offering that should be required to be competed, vs. what should the resort get to control. I still feel like instruction is core to the resort and it makes sense that they should control it, similar to instructors at a university.

And not to argue against myself too much... but the university is not that same, in that instruction is the primary function of a university, where I could argue that running lifts and letting customers ski is the primary function of a resort. That makes instruction a secondary function at a resort. Of course, then you could look at secondary things a university provides, and make the same argument that they should have to open them up to competition - things like food service and housing. Which also doesn't make sense.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,995
The argument was that vis a vis ski teaching, the ski industry is a monopoly.

This is obvious on a popular level, but making an intellectual case, let alone a legal case, is well beyond me.
 

snowtravel

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Mar 16, 2024
Posts
74
Location
Left coast
The question of why resorts should be "forced" to allow "rogues" is really about recognizing the inherent power dynamics at play and ensuring that everyone's rights and interests are respected and protected.

In the current system, skiers and instructors alike are essentially forced to accept the terms dictated by the resort, with little room for negotiation or individual choice. If you want to learn to ski, you'll do it on the resort's terms, with the resort's instructors and at the resort's prices (or not at all). And if you want to work as a ski instructor, you have to do it as an employee of the resort, subject to its policies and priorities: commonly including labor violations and an almost total lack of emphasis on skier safety.

The current one-sided arrangement is not only unfair to skiers and instructors, but also runs counter to the fundamental principles of the social contract. In a democratic society, we accept certain limitations on our individual freedoms in exchange for the benefits of living in a community. But those limitations are supposed to be balanced and negotiated, not imposed unilaterally by those with the most power.

When it comes to ski resorts operating on public land, this balance is even more critical. Resorts like Vail obtain special permits for federal land use with the explicit condition that those permits are non-exclusive. The whole point of this policy is to ensure that the benefits of public land are shared fairly and that no single entity has the power to monopolize access or dictate terms.

In practice, resorts like Vail violate both the spirit and the letter of their permits by leveraging them into a stranglehold on ski instruction and virtually every other imaginable service. IOW, if Vail hasn't thought of it, and doesn't have the exclusive right to profit from it, then you can't either. That’s totally contrary to what the non-exclusive permits say. Opening up ski areas on federal land to allow students and teachers to forge their own relationships isn't “forcing” Vail to do anything, but rather enforcing the permit terms that Vail itself agreed on at the outset.

This is not just a matter for contract lawyers or policy wonks. It has real consequences for the health and diversity of the ski industry, and for the individual experiences of skiers themselves. When resorts have the power to dictate terms and limit choices, it stifles innovation, creativity, and personal expression. It makes it harder for new voices and perspectives to emerge, and it reinforces existing power structures and inequalities.

So when we talk about "forcing" resorts to allow independent instructors, what we're really talking about is restoring balance to a system that has become dangerously one-sided. It's about recognizing that skiers and ski teachers alike have a right to choose how they learn and work; that resorts have a responsibility to operate in good faith and in the public interest; about finding a way forward that works for everyone, and that honors the fundamental principles of choice, diversity, and fairness that are supposed to guide our society; it’s about ensuring that the ski industry remains a vibrant, dynamic, and equitable business.

Finally, it's about recognizing that, when it comes to something as fundamental as the right to learn and work on public land, we all have a stake in getting the balance right.
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister
Moderator
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Posts
18,395
Location
75% Virginia, 25% Colorado
The question of why resorts should be "forced" to allow "rogues" is really about recognizing the inherent power dynamics at play and ensuring that everyone's rights and interests are respected and protected.

In the current system, skiers and instructors alike are essentially forced to accept the terms dictated by the resort, with little room for negotiation or individual choice. If you want to learn to ski, you'll do it on the resort's terms, with the resort's instructors and at the resort's prices (or not at all). And if you want to work as a ski instructor, you have to do it as an employee of the resort, subject to its policies and priorities: commonly including labor violations and an almost total lack of emphasis on skier safety.

The current one-sided arrangement is not only unfair to skiers and instructors, but also runs counter to the fundamental principles of the social contract. In a democratic society, we accept certain limitations on our individual freedoms in exchange for the benefits of living in a community. But those limitations are supposed to be balanced and negotiated, not imposed unilaterally by those with the most power.

When it comes to ski resorts operating on public land, this balance is even more critical. Resorts like Vail obtain special permits for federal land use with the explicit condition that those permits are non-exclusive. The whole point of this policy is to ensure that the benefits of public land are shared fairly and that no single entity has the power to monopolize access or dictate terms.

In practice, resorts like Vail violate both the spirit and the letter of their permits by leveraging them into a stranglehold on ski instruction and virtually every other imaginable service. IOW, if Vail hasn't thought of it, and doesn't have the exclusive right to profit from it, then you can't either. That’s totally contrary to what the non-exclusive permits say. Opening up ski areas on federal land to allow students and teachers to forge their own relationships isn't “forcing” Vail to do anything, but rather enforcing the permit terms that Vail itself agreed on at the outset.

This is not just a matter for contract lawyers or policy wonks. It has real consequences for the health and diversity of the ski industry, and for the individual experiences of skiers themselves. When resorts have the power to dictate terms and limit choices, it stifles innovation, creativity, and personal expression. It makes it harder for new voices and perspectives to emerge, and it reinforces existing power structures and inequalities.

So when we talk about "forcing" resorts to allow independent instructors, what we're really talking about is restoring balance to a system that has become dangerously one-sided. It's about recognizing that skiers and ski teachers alike have a right to choose how they learn and work; that resorts have a responsibility to operate in good faith and in the public interest; about finding a way forward that works for everyone, and that honors the fundamental principles of choice, diversity, and fairness that are supposed to guide our society; it’s about ensuring that the ski industry remains a vibrant, dynamic, and equitable business.

Finally, it's about recognizing that, when it comes to something as fundamental as the right to learn and work on public land, we all have a stake in getting the balance right.
I get all of that, and how you feel about it. You're obviously very invested, but I don't agree with much of that. When you describe the current system, that doesn't seem wrong or unfair to me. It does all the things you state on a local level, but there are a lot of resorts and a lot of instructors.

I still don't see anything that explains why ski instruction shouldn't belong to the resort. I.e. it still doesn't explain why this is different than asking to bring in an independent instructor to a university on public land. (Maybe it's not? Would people argue that that should be allowed?)

I do understand that the current system isn't the most beneficial to the consumer. Maybe that's enough that the government should step in with regard to resorts on public lands. Maybe they should make resorts behave in a way to benefit the public/consumer more. But given the current arrangement, they are allowed to run like any other business. And given that, it's not obvious to me that ski instruction is so special that it should be separable from the control of the resort itself, any more than, say, food service.
 

BLiP

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Feb 12, 2020
Posts
983
Location
New York
Resorts like Vail obtain special permits for federal land use with the explicit condition that those permits are non-exclusive. The whole point of this policy is to ensure that the benefits of public land are shared fairly and that no single entity has the power to monopolize access or dictate terms.
Not entirely accurate. The lease has a non-exclusivity provision. But is also states that USFS may only allow others to use the the land so long as it does not “materially interfere with the rights and privileges” of the leaseholder. It wouldn’t take a very skilled lawyer to argue that removing a significant source of revenue is a material interference of the leaseholders rights and privileges. This non-exclusive argument is far more complex than you suggest. Again, if it was an easy argument, it would have been made in court already. There are plenty of industries besides ski instruction that would love access to the resorts and USFS land, e.g., retail, dining/food service, hotel, etc. if there was an easy avenue to make it happen, it would have happened.

and an almost total lack of emphasis on skier safety
Really? Ski schools do not care about safety? And independent instructors without any credentials or insurance, and who learned to ski watching YouTube, would be better?

I appreciate that you’re passionate about this topic. I don’t disagree with the core of your argument, but some of the ancillary tangents go a bit far and detract from the main points that you’re trying to make.

Allow independent instructors as long as they are credentialed, insured, and pay some form of compensation to the resort. I can agree with that basic premise. The details would need significant work, but the basic premise is sound.

With that, I’m bowing out. Falling into the “someone on the internet is wrong, I need to correct them” trap. Wish you well.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
Skier
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,301
Location
Boston Suburbs
I still don't see anything that explains why ski instruction shouldn't belong to the resort. I.e. it still doesn't explain why this is different than asking to bring in an independent instructor to a university on public land. (Maybe it's not? Would people argue that that should be allowed?)
Pushing on your analogy to find the boundaries:
Maybe not a classroom full of students, but what about a private tutor working in the library? In a common room in the student's on-campus dorm? In the student's dorm room?


separable from the control of the resort itself, any more than, say, food service.
There may not be a moral or legal requirement, but food was better and cheaper back when there was independent on-mountain dining.
 

David Kurtz

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Posts
8
As a non-instructor, I find the descriptions of how PSIA and the NSAA really work interesting.

But I'm still not seeing anything that explains why ski resorts should ever be forced to allow independent instructors. The school/university example resonates with me. If I think a university course is too expensive, and I want to not pay their cost, but instead go with an independent teacher, should the university be forced to rent that teacher a classroom?

That seems like a pretty relevant analogy to me... why is it not? (Assuming we're talk about a ski resort on private land... I do understand the potential difference with regard to public lands. Although as pointed out earlier, many universities are essentially on public lands too.)

There are situations where a university will rent out facilities to outside organizations. I personally know of some major examples. There are also many complicated issues regarding Universities' ability to compete with the private sector. There are also many complicated issues regarding patents, and the Universities' desire to lease out those patents to foster private sector development. I'm sure there are also many examples where a University will try to limit use of its facilities, and it may seem like they have discretion, but it's not clear whether those discretions are fair or would stand up to government intervention if there was public outcry or demand. What's clear is that when there has been public demand, the Universities have acquiesced. The government doesn't provide support for these Universities only to have them squash economic growth through unfair competition, so there's quite a bit on the books regarding how Universities must share and foster competition. Though your particular example of classroom space is perhaps not compelling, because that doesn't seem to be a big issue. Most of the issues deal with research facilities, patents...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top