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Aspen Skiing Co clamping down on underground instructors

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crosscountry

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it's not obvious to me that ski instruction is so special that it should be separable from the control of the resort itself, any more than, say, food service.
Interestingly, that's how it works in Europe. Food service and ski schools are independent of the lift company!

The result speaks for itself. On mountain food quality and price are much better in Europe. So is ski school price and instructor pay.

I do understand that the current system isn't the most beneficial to the consumer.
Good observation.
 

crosscountry

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The government doesn't provide support for these Universities only to have them squash economic growth through unfair competition, so there's quite a bit on the books regarding how Universities must share and foster competition.
The same can't be said about government operated ski resorts (Whiteface, Canon...). I believe the ski school and food service are of equally monopoly and anti-competitive.

Perhaps, if one feels strongly about the issue, one should start on those (state) government run mountains. Make them open up the food services, ski schools and equipment rental to any business who wish to operate on mountain (with a concession fee). Maybe with better pay, instructors may flock to those mountains? Lower price food at more reasonable price? Nah...
 

Dave Marshak

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Interestingly, that's how it works in Europe. Food service and ski schools are independent of the lift company!

The result speaks for itself. On mountain food quality and price are much better in Europe. So is ski school price and instructor pay.
Yurp has a different culture and history. They've never had the entrenched local monopoly that is typical in US resorts.

The US won't adopt the European model because local monopolies maximize revenue, and regional monopolies maximize better. The more interesting question is why the Europeans haven't developed an integrated food service/ski patrol/instruction/lift service structure that captures all the revenue for a single owner. Maybe it's because there are actual towns in the mountains with independent service businesses, they treat major lifts like public transportation and they leave you on your own to explore the mountain. None of that will happen in the US. Ski resorts here operate more like Disneyland than anything in Yurp.

dm
 

Dave Marshak

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This is my final answer:

TLDR: It's not gonna change.

US ski resorts typically enjoy a local monopoly. Ski school and food service is part of that. It is the result of the history and culture of skiing as it has developed here at least since the 1950s. That mostly started in the East where there are few resorts on USFS lands, and the USFS has never required (and probably never even considered) any change to the common business practices of the ski industry.

The federal government has authority to restrict monopolistic practices. AFAIK it has done nothing to prevent the development of ski industry monopolies since 1997 when it required Vail Resorts to divest Arapahoe Basin (which seemed like a weak action at the time). It seems very unlikely that any federal agency would address the ski instruction local monopoly while the national skiing monopoly is ignored.

You have always been able to get high quality instruction from coaches who are not ski school employees, even from World Cup coaches who offer programs, but those programs are expensive, as you would expect for services from skilled professionals who pay for permission to work on private property (including property covered by USFS permits). You should not expect property owners to allow independent instructors to compete with ski schools by offering lower prices. Unless and until lift service is treated as public transportation with an open access requirement, there will not be price competition in the local ski instruction market.

Do not expect PSIA to change this. PSIA is not a union or any kind of advocacy group. (I'm a 30 year member.) It is a ski school that trains instructors and validates their skills, and it entirely depends on the permission of ski areas to operate. If PSIA challenged the business practices of the resorts, the resorts would squash it like a bug.

It is surprising and a little disappointing that everyone can get all torqued up about the local ski school monopoly but not about the general monopoly in the entire ski industry, and even more so about monopolistic practices everywhere else on the economy, including the labor market.

I've written all I have to say about this. If you want to know what I think about the subject, refer to this and my other posts. I'm out of here. Carry on.

dm
 
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James

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does all the things you state on a local level, but there are a lot of resorts and a lot of instructors.
Its just the same thing multiplied. Having a lot of the same thing isn’t really a choice.

As to the labor law violations, this is true and there have been lots of cases. Things have improved.
 

markojp

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..... and an almost total lack of emphasis on skier safety.

Any evidence on that one?

(In my experience with every ski school I've worked for, your statement couldn't be further from the truth.)
 
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crosscountry

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The more interesting question is why the Europeans haven't developed an integrated food service/ski patrol/instruction/lift service structure that captures all the revenue for a single owner.
Not just in the ski business. Europe don't seem to have the pattern of single integrated (vertical) service modal many US corporations have.

Different mindset I suspect. European businesses tend to be more focus on their core services and not bothering with all the peripheral services. That leaves the door open for independent businesses to operate/compete. While US business tend to have a mindset "I can see my customer also need that other service, I should offer that and make more profit"...
 

snowtravel

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Carry on.

Let's.

Monopolistic practices in the broader economy should certainly be addressed and remedied. This doesn't diminish the importance of halting anticompetitive practices as they relate to ski instruction. A single issue can catalyze wider reforms.

It's simply untrue that ski resorts "mostly started in the East where there are few resorts on USFS lands." In fact, almost all the earliest resorts started in the Intermountain and West regions:
Howelsen Hill, Colorado (1915)
Sun Valley, Idaho (1936)
Alta, Utah (1938)
Sugar Bowl, California (1939)
The only one of the first five resorts that was actually in the East was Stowe (1937), contradicting the entire premise.

Moreover, Howelsen, Alta, and Sugar Bowl were all established on public lands. Stowe is particularly interesting, as it was built on private land but with public funding through the Civilian Conservation Corps under New Deal legislation. This highlights the industry's reliance from the outset on public money as well as land, both of which should benefit not just powerful corporate interests but the public too.

Obviously, compared to today's resorts the earliest ski areas were vastly different: for one thing, they primarily focused on providing transportation up the mountain, with ski instruction being separate and largely independent. This model aligns well with traditional American free-market principles, where competition and individual enterprise are respected and valued, along with the freedom that constitutes skiing’s very heart.

Much later, the PSIA's formation in 1961 by ski area managers and owners represents a radical departure from the earlier free-market model. Created by employers to oversee the fledgling profession, the entire arrangement raises questions about PSIA's impact on competition and the autonomy of individual ski instructors.

Contrary to any implication that unrelated services like ski instruction and overpriced food naturally go together and somehow sprung spontaneously out of past "history and culture," the industry’s current structure essentially abandons its true past. (Some skiers still long for the old brownbag days, when parking the RV or even skinning uphill was perfectly all right.) Indeed, modern resort skiing resulted out of deliberate and often anticompetitive choices by industry stakeholders. These choices run counter to skiing’s spirit of freedom and individual autonomy, as well as the American ideal of a free market driven by competition and entrepreneurship. As I've pointed out elsewhere, such developments prioritize the interests of resort owners and managers over those of individual professionals and the public.

The USFS continually reviews and often changes its land use practices in relation to ski resorts. The agency's mandate to manage public lands for multiple uses, including recreation, conservation, and resource management, requires ongoing evaluation and adaptation of its policies and practices. As a volunteer ranger working with Heavenly and the USFS, we gained insights from scientists, resort administrators, and USFS officials who emphasized the need to adapt to demographic changes and manage four-season activities in order to balance priorities: improving land use, minimizing environmental impacts, and ensuring public safety. Recent fires and the evolving wildland-urban interface (the transition zone between wilderness and human development) require constant oversight. With USFS urging, among other things Heavenly has worked to lessen the effects of effluent running down the mountain and into Lake Tahoe. Even seemingly minor changes, such as removing trees, can require permission from the agency.

Ski resorts evolve and expand, requiring extensive USFS review and approval: public comment is required and always considered. In 2018, Vail Resorts announced a plan to expand its terrain at its original Colorado location. Strong opposition from environmental groups and local residents prompted a USFS environmental impact assessment. Ultimately, in 2019, Vail gave up. Changing public attitudes and protest—even by a small minority of vocal but persistent citizens—profoundly influence such decisions.

It's never too late to remedy past wrongs. There's a whole new generation of skiers and teachers, and they don't have to be victims of a dysfunctional system. History is full of tragedy but also filled with wrongs righted, sometimes after years of wrongdoing. Triumph happens, but not with pessimism and false clairvoyance bolstered by misstatements of fact. We deserve better.

In short: "It's not gonna change" is an utterly ahistorical fallacy that time invariably disproves.
 
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snowtravel

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Any evidence on that one?

(In my experience with every ski school I've worked for, your statement couldn't be further from the truth.)
PSIA claims that it's "student-centered." "Safety, fun, learning" puts safety first. Therefore, it should be easy for anyone, especially an experienced ski teacher, to find lots of examples in PSIA's materials, progressions and website all about safety.

Note: not merely the NSAA "responsibility code." A safety-first, student-centered professional organization would have classes and training manuals, lists of safety challenges and how to meet them, the sort of thing say, private pilots or maybe scuba divers can easily locate. Plus industry safety statistics, because without published data, we can't know the major risks.

(It's an important issue; take your time please.)
 

snowtravel

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Allow independent instructors as long as they are credentialed, insured, and pay some form of compensation to the resort. I can agree with that basic premise. The details would need significant work, but the basic premise is sound.
That's the main point, and the only one that really matters.
 
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dan ross

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There's no USFS process for getting a permit for ski instruction on federal land because there's no demand for that unless you also include access to privately owned lifts and buildings. All you need for independent instruction is the lift owner's permission, which is possible but costly. A USFS permit requirement would actually make the whole deal more difficult.

dm
Yes, I know. What I’m referring to is the leaseholder not the USFS or NPS. That’s my problem with it in some respects, how far and to what extent are they ( leaseholders) allowed to monopolize said land and their infrastructure on public land? Obviously to some degree but totally? Is this more than a legal hypothetical? Yes, until someone challenges it in court. I own property that abuts a National Park and I’m aware of the myriad and Byzantine bureaucracies that make doing anything on that land that isn’t in their original charter maddeningly difficult regardless of its merit. I suspect the USFS isn’t much different.
 

mister moose

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I don't think any of the proponents for independent ski instructors is asking for the instructors or students to be allowed to ski for free. They just want to be able to use the lifts, ski the runs, boot up in the lodge -- just like every other skier who paid for a lift ticket.
Paid for a non commercial use lift ticket.
Its just the same thing multiplied. Having a lot of the same thing isn’t really a choice.
Lots of smaller cheaper areas, as I have mentioned previously.
It's simply untrue that ski resorts "mostly started in the East where there are few resorts on USFS lands." In fact, almost all the earliest resorts started in the West and Far West:
Howelsen Hill, Colorado (1915)
Sun Valley, Idaho (1936)
<Inserts foot in door>
Pico, Vermont, 1937
Bromely, Vermont, 1938 on State forest
Alta, Utah (1938)
Sugar Bowl, California (1939)
The only one of the first five resorts that was actually in the East was Stowe (1937), contradicting the entire premise.



The USFS continually reviews and often changes its land use practices in relation to ski resorts. The agency's mandate to manage public lands for multiple uses, including recreation, conservation, and resource management, requires ongoing evaluation and adaptation of its policies and practices.

It's never too late to remedy past wrongs. There's a whole new generation of skiers and teachers, and they don't have to be victims of a dysfunctional system.

In short: "It's not gonna change" is an utterly ahistorical fallacy that time invariably disproves.
The reason the US is different than EU is the leases are different. Change is possible, but not likely.
 

snowtravel

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<Inserts foot in door>
Pico, Vermont, 1937
Bromely, Vermont, 1938 on State forest
Mah! Can't believe I missed those.

It gets worse. Seems my list should look more like this:

Eastern United States:
  1. Peckett's-on-Sugar Hill, New Hampshire (1927)
  2. Bousquet Ski Area, Massachusetts (1932)
  3. Stowe Mountain Resort, Vermont (1934)
  4. Bromley Mountain, Vermont (1936) *
  5. Belknap Mountain Recreation Area, New Hampshire (1937) *
  6. Pico Mountain, Vermont (1937)
  7. Cranmore Mountain Resort, New Hampshire (1937)
  8. Cannon Mountain, New Hampshire (1938) *
  9. Wilmot Mountain, Wisconsin (1938)
  10. Catamount Ski Area, New York (1939)
Western United States:
  1. Howelsen Hill Ski Area, Colorado (1915) *
  2. Mount Hood Skibowl, Oregon (1928) *
  3. Granlibakken, California (1928)
  4. Mount Spokane Ski and Snowboard Park, Washington (1933) *
  5. White Pass Ski Area, Washington (1935) *
  6. Badger Pass Ski Area, California (1935) *
  7. Brighton Ski Resort, Utah (1936) *
  8. Sun Valley, Idaho (1936)
  9. Snoqualmie Pass Ski Area (Summit at Snoqualmie), Washington (1937) *
  10. Mount Baker Ski Area, Washington (1937) *
  11. Timberline Lodge Ski Area, Oregon (1937) *
  12. Alta Ski Area, Utah (1938) *
  13. Mount Waterman Ski Area, California (1939) *
  14. Sugar Bowl Ski Resort, California (1939)

I compiled this one with an AI, so hallucinations possible. Many of these were in fact established on private land; nevertheless a preponderance of ski areas occupy public land or received public funding. Those areas are marked with an asterisk (*).

Corrections and additions appreciated.

(Sometimes, Google is not your friend.)
 
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mister moose

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The first in VT was a model T rope tow near Woodstock, VT at Clint Gilbert's farm in 1934. First rope tow in the US. That's pretty well known local lore. Didn't become a lasting area though.

Fred Harris built Harris Hill ski jump in 1922 (Brattleboro, VT), still operating there today. (with some improvements from the original!)

trestle-real+photo.jpeg


I wonder if anyone complained to Clint that he had a monopoly.
 

snowtravel

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Change is possible, but not likely.
Everyone's clairvoyant.
The first in VT was a model T rope tow near Woodstock, VT at Clint Gilbert's farm in 1934. First rope tow in the US. That's pretty well known local lore. Didn't become a lasting area though.

Fred Harris built Harris Hill ski jump in 1922 (Brattleboro, VT), still operating there today. (with some improvements from the original!)
Not sure these belong on the list; Harris=ski jumping and Gilbert's while seminal apparently didn't last. Nevertheless, notable: https://vermonthistory.org/first-ski-tow-in-the-u-s
I wonder if anyone complained to Clint that he had a monopoly.
Fast lifts, public land, unrelated and exclusive tie-ins with expensive food, lodging, retail, parking, PSIA...the man had it all and was making bank.
 
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markojp

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PSIA claims that it's "student-centered." "Safety, fun, learning" puts safety first. Therefore, it should be easy for anyone, especially an experienced ski teacher, to find lots of examples in PSIA's materials, progressions and website all about safety.

Note: not merely the NSAA "responsibility code." A safety-first, student-centered professional organization would have classes and training manuals, lists of safety challenges and how to meet them, the sort of thing say, private pilots or maybe scuba divers can easily locate. Plus industry safety statistics, because without published data, we can't know the major risks.

(It's an important issue; take your time please.)

You're confusing the roles and responsibilities/liable parties between ski instructors and area management.

Class handling and moving a group safely is part of all PSIA/AASI exams, but responsibility for safety and related training falls to ski school SSD's, TD's, and area management. If you're an attorney, you well understand that safety awareness, risk management, and all related training and materials are absolutely essential to run a ski area.

As an SSD, I'm responsible for training for our instructors, and that includes safety, both online and on the hill. I also answer to the GM, and work closely with patrol, snow surfaces, and lift ops regarding safety, reporting, S.O.P's, etc....

The notion that instructors are sent out without any basic awareness or training regarding safety is simply just not factual.

In the end, we do agree that there should be a different model, but I don't believe that sniping anonymously from the sidelines on an internet forum will bring about any meaningful change.

I'm going to bow out of this tangent and thread. Time is better spent making changes on the ground at 1:1.
 
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snowtravel

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You're confusing the roles and responsibilities/liable parties between ski instructors and area management.

Class handling and moving a group safely is part of all PSIA/AASI exams, but responsibility for safety and related training falls to ski school SSD's, TD's, and area management. If you're an attorney, you well understand that safety awareness, risk management, and all related training and materials are absolutely essential to run a ski area.

As an SSD, I'm responsible for training for our instructors, and that includes safety, both online and on the hill. I also answer to the GM, and work closely with patrol, snow surfaces, and lift ops regarding safety, reporting, S.O.P's, etc....

The notion that instructors are sent out without any basic awareness or training regarding safety is simply just not factual.

In the end, we do agree that there should be a different model, but I don't believe that sniping anonymously from the sidelines on an internet forum will bring about any meaningful change.

I'm going to bow out of this tangent and thread. Time is better spent making changes on the ground at 1:1.
With experience in skiing and other high-risk activities, I find your response disappointing but unsurprising. This ain’t my first run: over the decades I’ve had a number of skiing accidents myself (one severe) and seen many colleagues hurt; one got killed during a PSIA clinic. We were all sad and got a big lecture, but the person who would have most benefited was no longer with us…and afterwards, nothing changed. I've also been looking for ski school-relevant safety information since the mid-1980s, and been rewarded with about as much useful information as you've provided here.

From activities I've undertaken where safety is genuinely the top priority—including aviation, scuba diving, and volunteering with USFS—I also know firsthand how genuine safety culture feels and looks. It goes far beyond just assigning liability or ticking boxes during line-up. And it's absolutely not about corporate-legal "risk management," which I’ve too often seen and which cares less about injury than it does about paying for it.

With true risk management, safety permeates every aspect of the activity. Detailed safety protocols, emergency procedures, and training materials are developed, published, discussed, and consistently reinforced. Clear standards, ongoing education, and a shared understanding of the physics and risks involved are all plain and for all to see. (How many PSIA pros teach how impact energy increases with the cube of the increase in speed? How to safely handle a slower snowboarder's heelside blindspot? Or the speed factors built into typical ski helmets even?) Safety information should be everywhere, freely available, especially to the newest participants who often need it most.

Real professional associations spearhead safety initiatives, not just leave it up to individual operators or SSDs. That's the level of safety commitment any reasonable person would expect from an organization claiming it's "student-centered" and "safety first," especially one entrusted with teaching a potentially dangerous activity to the public. Slogans and vague assurances are not enough.

PSIA's utter lack of visible, substantive safety resources and emphasis is glaring. As the national standard-bearer for ski instruction, PSIA (not just you) has a responsibility to lead the way in safety, not pass the buck to individual resorts and directors. If PSIA is going to claim the mantle of "safety, fun, learning," it should be reflected in the depth and prominence of the safety content they produce and promote. Burying it somewhere even you can't find, assuming it even exists, is really quite telling.

Let's be clear: I've never said instructors are being sent out with zero safety awareness; I said there's no real emphasis, and the onus is on you as a top pro and PSIA apologist to prove otherwise. There's a hole the size of Jackson between baseline training and truly prioritizing safety at every level. If PSIA wants to be taken seriously, it needs to do much more proactively to equip instructors and students with the knowledge and tools to keep safe.

Finally, in no fair person's world is raising the single most important issue in skiing, and politely asking for information, "sniping from the sidelines." If you've got the high road here, then prove it by sharing some information so we'll all benefit. Meanwhile, I'm advocating for the wellbeing of students, the public and the integrity of a profession. You'd serve them and yourself better with a recognition of the truth and a bit of effort at safety progress.

(Here’s how the ski industry views disclosure of safety data: it's a "black eye." https://coloradosun.com/2023/09/06/fort-lewis-college-slide-with-respect-survey/ The linked article also discusses what appears to be an excellent "Slide with Respect" safety program.)
 
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